General Rugby Discussion

matthew8 · 12-07-2015 11:12PM

total former wrote: »

Depends on what stats you want to use, doesn't it?

If you look at the Top 14 this season, they're level. If you look at the 2015 6N, then Sexton is the better kicker. I don't think Halfpenny has a significantly longer range either, neither of them are Frans Steyn like.

All of this just emphasises my point that the gap between them is not so big as to demand Halfpenny's inclusion. If they needed a tie-breaker between Halfpenny and another equally good FB, then fair enough, but it shouldn't be a reason to pick him.

Why would you only use the 2015 6 nations? They haven't changed as kickers since the start of the 2014 season. Their Top 14 stats are blatantly false too, according to them half the kickers in the top 14 have a better success rate than anyone in internationals. Halfpenny can put about 5 more metres on his kicks, you don't ever see Sexton going for one just inside his own half.

duckysauce · 13-07-2015 12:45AM

total former wrote: »

Depends on what stats you want to use, doesn't it?

If you look at the Top 14 this season, they're level. If you look at the 2015 6N, then Sexton is the better kicker. I don't think Halfpenny has a significantly longer range either, neither of them are Frans Steyn like.

All of this just emphasises my point that the gap between them is not so big as to demand Halfpenny's inclusion. If they needed a tie-breaker between Halfpenny and another equally good FB, then fair enough, but it shouldn't be a reason to pick him.

Edit: I'm not sure about that statbunker site, it's telling me Ian Madigan was 100% in this year's 6N when I know that's not right..

Ian gets 100% here too for 2015 http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=playstatsaway&fixid=183811#SUAEmqtoyCuVrMk1.97

Swiwi. · 13-07-2015 05:51AM

:eek:

Didn't take long for a parody to appear either

errlloyd · 13-07-2015 09:58AM

I very much agree with total Former on this. If you have a strong goal kicking outhalf then you shouldn't compromise on a ball playing fifteen in favour of a kicker.

13-07-2015 10:09AM

If Halfpenny was just a kicker, I'd agree.

But he's worth his place in a 15 without the place kicking!

Swiwi. · 13-07-2015 10:12AM

errlloyd wrote: »

I very much agree with total Former on this. If you have a strong goal kicking outhalf then you shouldn't compromise on a ball playing fifteen in favour of a kicker.

I'm sort of middle ground. If Halfpenny was a goalkicker, and no more (I'm thinking Neil Jenkins here), I would agree. However, all points possible will likely be of the essence during the Lions Tour, and I'm sorry, but Halfpenny is definitely a more accurate, more reliable, longer range goalkicker than Sexton. Of the B&I countries, the only player I would consider starting in place of Halfpenny would be Hogg, if Schmidt wants to try more of an out-and-out attacking style. Halfpenny's goalkicking on the last Lions tour was just awesome, and it would definitely strike fear into All Black loosies living on the edge and weary about giving away a penalty.

Also, Sexton's form faded a bit towards the end of the 6N, he would currently be frontrunner for the Lions 10, and rightly so, but 2017 still a way off.

total former · 13-07-2015 10:20AM

Swiwi. wrote: »

I'm sort of middle ground. If Halfpenny was a goalkicker, and no more (I'm thinking Neil Jenkins here), I would agree. However, all points possible will likely be of the essence during the Lions Tour, and I'm sorry, but Halfpenny is definitely a more accurate, more reliable, longer range goalkicker than Sexton. Of the B&I countries, the only player I would consider starting in place of Halfpenny would be Hogg, if Schmidt wants to try more of an out-and-out attacking style. Halfpenny's goalkicking on the last Lions tour was just awesome, and it would definitely strike fear into All Black loosies living on the edge and weary about giving away a penalty.

Also, Sexton's form faded a bit towards the end of the 6N, he would currently be frontrunner for the Lions 10, and rightly so, but 2017 still a way off.

Neil Jenkins is the perfect example of why the Halfpenny argument doesn't stand up.

Jenkins was included in the 1997 Lions because the outstanding fly-half was Townsend whose goal-kicking was pretty shocking at times. There was a chasm of difference between them in terms of goal-kicking; that gap just isn't there between Halfpenny and Sexton.

Halfpenny's goal-kicking on the last Lions tour was awesome? Really? Not in the tests it wasn't.

But you're right, 2017 is a long way off, we could well be arguing over whether Sexton even makes the team ahead of Ford or Russell, or likewise Halfpenny might not be in the mix either (which I think is more likely, which is what kicked all of this off...)

Swiwi. · 13-07-2015 10:42AM

total former wrote: »

Neil Jenkins is the perfect example of why the Halfpenny argument doesn't stand up.

Jenkins was included in the 1997 Lions because the outstanding fly-half was Townsend whose goal-kicking was pretty shocking at times. There was a chasm of difference between them in terms of goal-kicking; that gap just isn't there between Halfpenny and Sexton.

Halfpenny's goal-kicking on the last Lions tour was awesome? Really? Not in the tests it wasn't.

But you're right, 2017 is a long way off, we could well be arguing over whether Sexton even makes the team ahead of Ford or Russell, or likewise Halfpenny might not be in the mix either (which I think is more likely, which is what kicked all of this off...)

I'm too bored to debate endlessly over this. But if the Lions are leading by 5 with a few minutes to play, and are awarded a penalty about 40 out slightly on the angle, I'd take Halfpenny over Sexton for sure.

I also regret breaking my own rule by foolishly using the GRD discussion to post a Lions-related post...I couldn't face a Lions 2017 thread just yet...

total former · 13-07-2015 10:46AM

Swiwi. wrote: »

I'm too bored to debate endlessly over this. But if the Lions are leading by 5 with a few minutes to play, and are awarded a penalty about 40 out slightly on the angle, I'd take Halfpenny over Sexton for sure.

I also regret breaking my own rule by foolishly using the GRD discussion to post a Lions-related post...I couldn't face a Lions 2017 thread just yet...

It would appear you're not.

But am I the only one who remembers this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJoozOFKzTk

Sangre · 13-07-2015 10:47AM

duckysauce wrote: »

Ian gets 100% here too for 2015 http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=playstatsaway&fixid=183811#SUAEmqtoyCuVrMk1.97

Must be attributing the missed kick to Sexton then.

Swiwi. · 13-07-2015 10:49AM

total former wrote: »

It would appear you're not.

Nah, I am. I've said my bit.

aimee1 · 13-07-2015 12:56PM

English Lurker wrote: »

Leaving aside my disagreement with the statement as it stands, why would you take the goal kicking out of the equation for arguably the best goal kicker in international rugby? On goalkicking grounds alone I'd expect him to start.

That said, I think Halfpenny's also the single strongest defensive full-back we have available by some margin, possibly the only one where I can't pick a significant flaw with their defensive play. Not bad in attack either, mind, although there are better out there, but his defensive qualities are outstanding.

Halfpennys tackle technique as demonstrated in rome in march is a flaw.

Buer · 13-07-2015 01:11PM

Halfpenny kicked excellently in 2013 including the test matches. The missed kick in the final minute of the second test was one of only two he missed in that game and was just outside his range. It was on target and dropped short by a few yards. He wouldn't have even taken that on unless he had no choice.

He was 8/9 in the final test and 5/6 in the first test. That gives him 82% for the test series (it'd have been 86% without the final kick in the second test). Given a number of his kicks were far from handy in a massive pressure environment, that's an excellent return.

Bazzo · 15-07-2015 10:24AM

aimee1 wrote: »

Halfpennys tackle technique as demonstrated in rome in march is a flaw.

I was gonna point this out. I seem to remember him getting his head on the wrong side of a tackle on numerous occasions, so I wouldn't exactly describe him as "superb in defence".

I also don't buy the "best goal kicker in the world" hype that you hear about him so much. He is a very very very good kicker but particularly last season he missed several crunch kicks that were fairly straightforward(same can be said for Sexton).

English Lurker · 15-07-2015 11:22AM

Bazzo wrote: »

I was gonna point this out. I seem to remember him getting his head on the wrong side of a tackle on numerous occasions, so I wouldn't exactly describe him as "superb in defence".

I also don't buy the "best goal kicker in the world" hype that you hear about him so much. He is a very very very good kicker but particularly last season he missed several crunch kicks that were fairly straightforward(same can be said for Sexton).

Who's better? His overall international average is better than both Laidlaw and Morne Steyn as far as I'm aware. I accept that flat averages are a fairly crude measuring tool and the sites we have for use aren't completely reliable. Fortunately, some people are trying to make models that reflect variables that include such things as angle, distance and so on - they all point at Halfpenny too;

http://www.goalkickers.co.za/ is the main one, but there are a few longer blog posts on limited time periods (mostly using the same data) here and here - http://thepowerofgoals.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/rating-rugby-union-kickers-by-kick.html and http://www.gilbertrugbyblog.com/international-season-kicking-statistics/

I'm curious as to what crucial goals you think Halfpenny missed last season as looking back at Wales' and Toulon's matches, I can't find any where the margin of defeat could have been changed if Halfpenny had got every missed kick.

Finally, Halfpenny's method of tackling has some pretty significant downsides for himself, but his team mates have nothing to complain about in terms of bad missed tackles.

15-07-2015 02:42PM

Old article, but very good imo.

All about the referee's impact on the game

Liked this section

Emotion – the inherent bias when working backwards

Possibly could be one for the stickies!

15-07-2015 03:46PM

Also some other interesting pieces from the same author

Injuries in rugby – how often are players injured, when they are injured, and how seriously?

Possession in rugby – why rugby has been a sport where the team with the ball is LESS likely to win

The physiological demands of rugby – how far do they run, how often do they tackle, how much energy, and what intensity is the game played at?

The_Captain · 17-07-2015 12:07PM

Didn't Chris Paterson have the highest international kicking percentage in the world at one point?

irishbucsfan · 17-07-2015 01:39PM

The_Captain wrote: »

Didn't Chris Paterson have the highest international kicking percentage in the world at one point?

Yeah, he had a streak going in international rugby for ages, someone I'm sure will know how high it got... it was very impressive.

Buer · 17-07-2015 01:47PM

36. He didn't miss a kick in the 2007 RWC or the following 6N.

Steyn broke that though with 41 and Brock James has a longer streak than 41 in the T14 also, I recall.

Podge_irl · 17-07-2015 01:52PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, he had a streak going in international rugby for ages, some sad weirdo I'm sure will know how high it got... it was very impressive.

Buer wrote: »

36. He didn't miss a kick in the 2007 RWC or the following 6N.

Steyn broke that though with 41 and Brock James has a longer streak than 41 in the T14 also, I recall.

True story ibf.

Mind you I think Paterson started only taking kicks he was very sure of getting towards the end of his streak. Think Scotland had another long range kicker at the time.

Buer · 17-07-2015 02:00PM

Wait......wait....something isn't right here....

Must be my imagination.

Anyway, Dan Parks took the odd kick for Scotland during that period but Paterson took the bulk. I think they generally turned down most longer distance kicks as neither had a long range. Paterson did nail a number of kicks from tight angles during that RWC I recall.

molloyjh · 17-07-2015 02:19PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

...someone I'm sure will know...

Buer wrote: »

36. He didn't miss a kick in the 2007 RWC or the following 6N.

Steyn broke that though with 41 and Brock James has a longer streak than 41 in the T14 also, I recall.

Yes, someone always knows. :P

lbj666 · 17-07-2015 02:36PM

Japan 2019 will be looking for a new venue for the final because their plan for the olympic stadium has be scrapped. Pity, probably going to end up in Yokahama now which was the venue for the Fifa 2002 final which is a bit disapointing. Might not be any games in Toyko which would be a huge shame.

nc6000 · 17-07-2015 10:45PM

lbj666 wrote: »

Japan 2019 will be looking for a new venue for the final because their plan for the olympic stadium has be scrapped. Pity, probably going to end up in Yokahama now which was the venue for the Fifa 2002 final which is a bit disapointing. Might not be any games in Toyko which would be a huge shame.

The Tokyo stadium won't be ready for the 2019 RWC but will be ready for the 2020 Olympics which seems very strange. How hard can it be to bring the schedule forward 6 or 9 months with 4 years notice?

Iompair · 18-07-2015 10:41AM

They are restarting the bidding/design process from what I've read. The design originally picked was ballooning in price (and it started off as the most expensive stadium in the world!) so the Japanese PM ordered the whole process restarted.

Micky Dolenz · 18-07-2015 01:36PM

Yeah, 2 billion for a stadium is a bit mental.

thomond2006 · 19-07-2015 11:48AM

This contract saga with Quade Cooper is ridiculous. He signs a two year deal with Toulon only three months ago and now wants to 'cancel' it to sign a four year deal with the ARU.

It looks like Toulon will be getting paid significant compensation (by Cooper himself) and I'd say they're happy to get Cooper off the books.

Squidgy Black · 19-07-2015 10:12PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

This contract saga with Quade Cooper is ridiculous. He signs a two year deal with Toulon only three months ago and now wants to 'cancel' it to sign a four year deal with the ARU.

It looks like Toulon will be getting paid significant compensation (by Cooper himself) and I'd say they're happy to get Cooper off the books.

Allegedly wants to play 7s for Australia in the olympics.

irishbucsfan · 19-07-2015 10:26PM

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Allegedly wants to play 7s for Australia in the olympics.

Australia haven't qualified for the Olympics, they have a competition coming up in Novemeber and if they don't qualify through that (which is a genuine possibility) they'll be attempting to qualify through the same competition that we are in next year. If Olympic 7s is really the reason he wants to stay and Australia don't qualify it'll end up being a pretty massive waste of money!

General Rugby Discussion

Comments