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DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread
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LSR 8 Miles done and dusted,
Well spotted MrsMC, nice to see u out bright an early. Went out for 12 miles myself
Avg. 9.40 mins, just checking legs in good order so did few at pmp & one good bit
above at mile 10 to check if still plenty in tank.
Was reading tru Thread this morning & sorry to hear about RonanP, but as long as he
is happy with decision best of Luck.
I am still managing both achilles myself, was with Physio this week & he gave same
advise listen to ur body. But they have always gave me trouble & I would just let my
body tell me to stop & slow down.
So took yesterday off had half bottle of wine with Mrs Kennyg stayed up late watching TV
and woke up early this morning, streched out, not in form for Running, said to MRSKennyg
just had read of boards and lots of people seem in pain, maybe not year for me & she
gave me her words of wisdom, stop moaning & get out the door, had a great Run, no
head phones, listened to body & it did say couple of times, what are u doing, but kept
going & it seems to be cooperating, so for now I'll say with training & see how goes.
Signed up for race series & marathon before injury, so nothing to lose. Will keep an
eye on things & will slow LSR down as they are getting longer.
also Nice to see PJD at Park Run on Saturday, good sprint finish, even with hard half Marathon in legs, so well done.
Not sure these two statement/aims sit well together, G. I think the latter should be the one to concentrate on in the short term and the next few months will give you plenty of opportunities for the former......young bull, old bull and all that
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Not sure these two statement/aims sit well together, G. I think the latter should be the one to concentrate on in the short term and the next few months will give you plenty of opportunities for the former......young bull, old bull and all that
see you're talking bull again, M... and welcome back
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After 2 10ks at an average pace this week did a 23k LSR this morning - would do the shorter (non-race) runs at around 5min/km so tried to push this up to 5.45 ish....in the end I averaged 5.25min/km so still a bit of work on pacing my LCRs needed. Still felt okay and happy that the pace was consistent even the last few kms.
Didn't bother bringing gels and while I was okay - I did feel I could have done with something from about 17k or so. Again something to remember for the next one.
Hi TheBazman don't be a stranger Hopefully you'll have been reading the thread occasionally. You'll see a theme 
Many of you are finding it hard to set paces for training, in other words you are training too fast.
It's easy to fall into the trap of 'hey I'm able to run these at a clippy pace, got to help my marathon right?'
Unfortunately...not here. Long slow easy miles are the way to do it. Your paces are way too fast and will leave you hanging before mile 20. Long slow miles will build your endurance and get you through the last 10k which believe me, could be the longest 10k you ever ran in your life.
Your target is 4 hours, which means an average pace of just over 9m/mi (5:42km) pace. So even doing a lsr at 5:45 pace means you are doing your lsr at PMP (planned marathon pace). This means that you are not building fatigue-resistant muscles.
So PMP of 5:42=
Lsr pace of 6:10-6:38
Your mid week 10k runs should be in the quicker end of this range too.
Doing these at 5 minutes per km pace means you are doing two tempo runs a week...so none of your training is geared towards aerobic endurance :eek:
The good news is that it's not too late It's quite simple:
- slow down to the above recommended paces and
- try add in another day's running so your mileage is more evenly spread. 2x10k runs and one lsr of 20+k is too lsr-top heavy.
Any questions, feel free
You also don't *have* to take gels. You could try to train your body to use its own resources but that will take more than one run. Have a read around the subject anyway.0 -
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Hi Phoebas, definitely a personal choice thing IMO, for elites all the way to novices. Enduro will tell you that your body has practically limitless resources. He has run for days (no, he's sane) with practically nothing afaik. I haven't thoroughly trained my body to run on empty but I know that I can do a morning session or lsr 'empty' with minimal impact on performance every now and then. You just need to train your body. However, I think I remember that it takes a while. Perhaps T Bubendorfer can throw a few links this way please?That sounds like a mobile picnic
I've been wondering about food fuel. I'd been kinda convinced by the training with no food arguement (something along the lines that if you don't eat during a long run it would train the body to store more glycogen in the muscles and liver; this energy being readily available, so the body doesn't need to metabolise food or fat for energy).
But, for novices running a marathon, does this matter so much? There will be no shortage of gels on the day, and jellies, and maybe bananas and even fig rolls (possibly even Jacobs ones). From what I read, the capacity of glycogen stores is limited anyway, so other energy sources need to be tapped during a long race.
So, really, is this training the body to increase glycogen storage capacity thing a marginal - and therefore, elite - concern?0 -
Not sure these two statement/aims sit well together, G. I think the latter should be the one to concentrate on in the short term and the next few months will give you plenty of opportunities for the former......young bull, old bull and all that
Will keep words of wisdom in mind, but felt better today, than lot
Of previous days. Even managed few miles with dog this evening
Only waking, have now completed 5 full weeks, have agreed with
Physio to get calf & achilies worked on every 4 weeks & as miles
Ramp up to higher milage, once a week. Still doing streaches mrs g
Loves, before & after long run & after all shorter ones. But my body
Allways says at 6 in the am, go back to bed u nutter, but it will just
Have to toe the line and do as it's told.0 -
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Hi TheBazman don't be a stranger Hopefully you'll have been reading the thread occasionally. You'll see a theme Many of you are finding it hard to set paces for training, in other words you are training too fast.
It's easy to fall into the trap of 'hey I'm able to run these at a clippy pace, got to help my marathon right?'
Unfortunately...not here. Long slow easy miles are the way to do it. Your paces are way too fast and will leave you hanging before mile 20. Long slow miles will build your endurance and get you through the last 10k which believe me, could be the longest 10k you ever ran in your life.
Your target is 4 hours, which means an average pace of just over 9m/mi (5:42km) pace. So even doing a lsr at 5:45 pace means you are doing your lsr at PMP (planned marathon pace). This means that you are not building fatigue-resistant muscles.
So PMP of 5:42=
Lsr pace of 6:10-6:38
Your mid week 10k runs should be in the quicker end of this range too.
Doing these at 5 minutes per km pace means you are doing two tempo runs a week...so none of your training is geared towards aerobic endurance :eek:
The good news is that it's not too late It's quite simple:
- slow down to the above recommended paces and
- try add in another day's running so your mileage is more evenly spread. 2x10k runs and one lsr of 20+k is too lsr-top heavy.
Any questions, feel free
You also don't *have* to take gels. You could try to train your body to use its own resources but that will take more than one run. Have a read around the subject anyway.
Cheers for that. Apologies I don't contribute a huge amount to the thread but only have phone access for most of the day. Your comments make perfect sense and it's something I really need to work on....LSR pacing. In terms of the number of runs, I generally do 4 per week but some weeks I can't fit them in as I've been doing physio and core sessions as well as a couple of triathlons. Anyway appreciate the feedback. Onwards and upwards.0 -
That sounds like a mobile picnic
I've been wondering about food fuel. I'd been kinda convinced by the training with no food arguement (something along the lines that if you don't eat during a long run it would train the body to store more glycogen in the muscles and liver; this energy being readily available, so the body doesn't need to metabolise food or fat for energy).
But, for novices running a marathon, does this matter so much? There will be no shortage of gels on the day, and jellies, and maybe bananas and even fig rolls (possibly even Jacobs ones). From what I read, the capacity of glycogen stores is limited anyway, so other energy sources need to be tapped during a long race.
So, really, is this training the body to increase glycogen storage capacity thing a marginal - and therefore, elite - concern?
It's a great question Phoebas and you'll find a lot of debate about it elsewhere. One point to note is that you can't really train to increase your ability to store glycogen it's more about using fat as a greater % of your fuel source, e.g. instead of the mix being 90/10 carb to fat shifting that to 70/30.
My advice is that for the purposes of this thread there isn't a great need to train your body to utilise fat as a fuel source, you'll find that it happens anyway with your long runs but there's no need to go into great detail and planning to try and make your body even better at utilising fat. I don't recommend using gels on all of your LSR's though. There's definitely a place for practicing and testing out what works for you but outside of that I'd just recommend carrying something as an emergency reserve in case you do hit the wall.
The first reason for that is that there's no point in wasting spending money on gels for training. The intensity at which you run most of your LSR's mean that unless you enter into the run in a carb depleted state you largely shouldn't need them.
The second reason is that some people have gastro-intestinal issues in marathons and sometimes they really don't feel like consuming anything. The better their ability to utilise fat as a fuel source the greater their chances of being able to finish.
All that said I know someone who consistently runs 2:5x and takes a gel every 5 miles.0 -
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Mega post warning: stick the kettle on...
REVIEW
Those of you following the HHN1 plan will be facing this week refreshed and ready to go after your step back week. The boards plan had hill sprints incorporated into the Wednesday session with lots of positive feedback. Some of you have expressed an interest in doing these on a regular basis and that is fine but they have a specific purpose and place in a structured plan so check in here before you go sprinting...
We said adieu to Ronan last week as well but not farewell as he is going to hang around and pop in frequently, isn't that right Ronan?! We all recognise what a difficult thing this was for him to do as we - me included - are in the midst of marathon fever...
So he celebrated by knocking three minutes off his 5k PB, way to go Ronan! Meno and Ososlo predict great things for him next year and I have to say I completely agree. Showing that kind of restraint tells me he has what it takes to make a complete runner, one who sees the bigger picture. On behalf of everyone here, we wish you the very best of luck. Follow his training log here folks.
You've had some great discussions and feedback re the long slow runs and I am so glad to see that so many of you are following the mantra Now is the Time
Some of you have been practising race specificity and have started to run early, well done.
There have been some great posts re fuelling and finding out what works for you. Again, 'Now is the Time'
I have some suggestions for Firedance's Novice Aid Station, mile 15 here
From guardian:
"Pietri is also said to have indulged in some mid-race strychnine, but blamed his failure to complete the race on eating too much steak for breakfast. The extent to which sports nutrition has changed in the past century can be seen from the testimony of Joseph Forshaw, who won the bronze medal (having, incidentally, soaked his socks in beef fat to aid comfort). "We followed the plan adopted at previous marathon races, eating a good breakfast of steak, following this with two raw eggs, some tea and toast," he said. "On the way we took nothing but water, except four miles from the finish, having a stitch in the side, I took a drop of brandy. Ordinarily I don't believe in drinking spirits, but I had to do something as the side was giving me trouble."
For those of you interested in reading more about this epic marathon in 1908, follow this link and this and this for the Irish involvement
Plus ca change...So marathon runners 100 years ago faced very similar conditions: heat, fuelling, PEDs (or opposite!) music en route and illegal help. If I catch any of you trying to hitch a lift in a carriage.... :mad:
Slowly, slowly (see what I did there ) you are getting the hang of going slow, well done! Have a look at this this article just to remind yourself why slowly slowly will get you there....
(Diego_b your lsr pace is fine still for now. Your range is 9:45-10:30 so 11m/mi is outside the range but still absolutely fine at this stage.) eyeball kid, yours is ok too as far as I can see.) Some of you have mentioned the '20 mile warm up for a 10k race' structure that is the marathon. Slowing down your training runs will give you the necessary endurance in that last 10k. See also Clearlier's excellent synopsis above - perfect timing C!!
Nop98 shared with us the difficulties of pacing - even with the strictest of conditions - a training run in a race setting, thanks for that.
Jake1970 and chilli both ran extremely good races and recorded 40:35 (pb) 10k and 1:41 HM respectively, well done! Chilli left the headphones off, go to the top of the class. We'll be hearing a lot more from Jake now as he commits to marathon training off the base of his 10k plan. We are, however, still waiting on more detailed race reports from both... :rolleyes:
Many of you have been running without headphones ...music to my ears Well done, it will pay off, I promise you.
Ronan has not been the only one to have niggle and injury worries however I am pleased to see that those of you who have - whoopsa and chrislad, hilly among others - are being very sensible and not proceeding at all costs. How are the piggies this morning hilly?
So it is natural to have anxieties and worries. Doubts even. Already you guys have invested an awful lot: time, commitment, hours in training and the thought of it all being wiped out is not a good prospect.
Many of you have been having doubts about your ability to complete the required training, never mind the distance itself.
I remember in June last year, I completed my first weekly mileage of just over 26 miles. I logged my worries about how it had taken me a whole bloody week to do that, how on earth was I going to put a week's training together in under four hours???
Guys, you can and you will.
These concerns are natural, organic and show that you have a very healthy respect for the road ahead. You are on a journey and it is going to be one of the most satisfying journeys of your life.
Tough days are ahead but you will do as Mrs Mc suggests and grit through some of them and come out the other end. Others, as she wisely suggests, you will chalk up to experience and move on. You will persevere and you will win some hardcore internal battles.
There will come a day over the next weeks and months when you find yourself saying such ridiculous statements as 'oh, I've only got a 12 mile run to do this week'. Seriously 'only 12 miles' will be one of your stock phrases.
Many of you - especially those of you with young children - will experience bouts of sickness. Hard marathon training will more than likely compromise your immune system. A lsr, for example, will leave you more open to bugs etc for up to 72 hours. Kennyg71 suggested that we listen to our bodies and, as Singer posted, you have to be nice to your body or it will come back and bite you :eek: Some weeks you will have to miss a run or session due to sickness. Don't try to make it up, again, move on. If you decide to run through sickness (not always a clear cut call), lower your expectations and throw the required paces out the window. Go by effort instead andGET ENOUGH SLEEP
"An hour before midnight is worth two after"
WEEK AHEAD
So the week ahead has the boards plan revert to a mid-week pace run and consolidate the recent increased lsr total at 13 miles. Next week sees you take another jump to 15 miles so enjoy this paltry 13 mile lsr hehe.
THE HHN1 plan sees you increase your lsr to 9 miles in preparation for a double figure run of 10 miles in week T-14.
FOCUS FOR THE WEEK
Just to recap on previous week's focuses: you've looked at your running form running 'naked' and going slower, while introducing stridesband hill sprints
and fuelling on a lsr
I want you to continue with these...with one teensy weensy addition.....
LEAVE THE GARMIN AT HOME!!!!
ok, not all the time, not even for long...JUST ONE RUN, ONCE A WEEK
Try it. It's no big deal. By now many of you will have a rough idea of your route.
All I want you to do is pick one day this week, preferably a recovery or easy day so ideally the Tuesday or Thursday run for you guys on the HHN1 plan and any day except the Wednesday session or lsr day for those of you following the boards plan. Those of you on other plans, give me a shout if you're not sure which day would be best. DON't panic, unlike headphones, I am not going to make ask you to do this every day
WHY?
- going garmin-free occasionally will make you more in tune with your body ie, you will train yourself to read your internal data more effectively. I cannot over emphasise the usefulness of this on race day. You need to be able to tell yourself how you feel at a particular pace and EFFORT and not have it dictated to you by a piece of equipment strapped to your wrist
- you will be a more confident runner and believe me, that makes a difference
- you will learn to trust yourself: your judgement on effort, breathing,pace, cadence, and perceived fatigue etc = better runner
- you will become more confident about using your gps as 'a tool' to support your running, not 'the tool' without which you are lost. You are lost without the use of your legs, you are not lost without the use of your gps
- because I bloody well said so! Not really....
Just once a week, and you will be a better runner come marathon day. Promise.
Happy running this week Novices 0 -
How are the piggies this morning hilly?
Bit better. Does not hurt to point or scrunch them any more which was one of the triggers. Was pointing them in bed before getting up this morning and I thought they might be miraculously cured & I could get the LSR in today.
But there is still a bit of soreness walking around, so last week's LSR is gone for good. I'll pick up this week's training tomorrow or after.0 -
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Thanks Clearlier and DG for those wise words. I'm looking forward to this week on HHN1. I will be moving it a day forward though as I won't get the 14k LSR done on Saturday because of work in the day and Kodaline that evening So I intend to run Mon, Tues, Weds and test Thurs, do the LSR on Friday, some cross training (cycling) Saturday and Sunday and then get the days back on track next week. 0
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LEAVE THE GARMIN AT HOME!!!!
ok, not all the time, not even for long...JUST ONE RUN, ONCE A WEEK
Try it. It's no big deal. By now many of you will have a rough idea of your route.
All I want you to do is pick one day this week, preferably a recovery or easy day so ideally the Tuesday or Thursday run for you guys on the HHN1 plan and any day except the Wednesday session or lsr day for those of you following the boards plan. Those of you on other plans, give me a shout if you're not sure which day would be best. DON't panic, unlike headphones, I am not going to make ask you to do this every day
Happy running this week Novices
Aye aye Cap'n. I just have one...concern. I have lately been finding that I'm running faster than I should and feeling good at the faster pace. So if I run without the Garmin, I'm just saying I might end up running it faster than I'm supposed to. Is that ok?!0 -
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