DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Grandeeod · 05-07-2015 04:38PM

markpb wrote: »

I don't think it's heavy rail that killed those projects, I think it's the fact that they were meant to go underground. As soon as they were announced, the entire county (including most of Dublin) proclaimed simultaneously: "sure it's not London or New York, we don't need a Tube over here.... Getting ahead of ourselves.... Celtic tiger project ... Gold plating.... What about the west..." And the politicians listened.

Yep, you're right. I didn't articulate it well. The underground aspect is the clincher. Underground is BIG thinking. From here on in it's surface light rail or a bus.

BoatMad · 06-07-2015 02:28AM

Grandeeod wrote: »

A very sad thread. 40 odd years later and nothing has really changed that much.

No difference to many other countries , see UKs cross rail project. Etc

monument · 06-07-2015 09:28AM

BoatMad wrote: »

No difference to many other countries , see UKs cross rail project. Etc

But Cross Rail 2 is now in planning before no 1 is finished.

Banjoxed · 06-07-2015 09:46AM

monument wrote: »

But Cross Rail 2 is now in planning before no 1 is finished.

I think the fundamental problem is that big chunks of the professional classes really don't understand why public transport should be anything other than a bus, as a residual for those too young/old/otherwise unable to drive a car.

coolperson05 · 06-07-2015 07:26PM

I think a solution to the capacity issue on the 'new' Green line is to terminate some services at Stephen's Green and continue others onward. If they are going for the 3 minute frequency, then it won't be feasible to shuttle a tram every 3 minutes through College Green without bringing the entire city centre to a standstill. This is equally true if (or when) it is extended to the Airport/Swords/Afar. There will be have to services that only go to a certain length and turn around. I do accept other posters opinion that 'Luas for everywhere' is not the correct solution...but with the Cross City underway, and (supposedly) painless link out the Airport in people's heads; it is likely to be here long before any underground solution due to it's 'staged-construction' approach.

Calina · 06-07-2015 07:49PM

BoatMad wrote: »

No difference to many other countries , see UKs cross rail project. Etc

I left Brussels 15 years ago. In that time, they have reconfigured their metro system, built extra stations, reorganised the buses and some of the trams and are a year or so behind but actively building an RER system. They have a far more intelligent fare system and their smart cards work an absolute treat.

I'm aware that the economy in Ireland collapsed in 2008 but I think a core contributor to our problems is less the economy and more the yerrah it'll do grand attitude.

One of my main criticisms of Ireland and Irish politics is the complete lack of vision. I don't care if the UK's cross rail project runs late. It is no excuse to say "yerrah we're incompetent, but we are not alone so it's grand.".

Can we please be different to other countries? Can we build sensible public transport, reconfigure the city centre to make it more pleasant, and integrate the different transport modes more effectively?

Dublin is a chaotic mess at the moment. I don't think it has not been a chaotic mess since I've been living here, both this stretch of time and the previous one. But it doesn't have to be that way, could be the coolest city in the world if we worked to make it so. It's got stunning buildings, and O'Connell Street could be an extraordinary plaza with some planning.

Rather than saying "other countries are no better". We could do a lot better than we're doing.

Grandeeod · 06-07-2015 08:59PM

BoatMad wrote: »

No difference to many other countries , see UKs cross rail project. Etc

Travel more and learn how it's done in other places. Not everywhere, but it is done without 40 odd years of BS in relation to one city and one fundamental project.

Your UK example is rather disrespectfull of a nation that has proved itself at being ground breaking before Ireland even considered exploring the possibility of a small underground project in its capital city. When 40 plus years is factored in, then money is not an excuse.

BoatMad · 06-07-2015 09:44PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

Travel more and learn how it's done in other places. Not everywhere, but it is done without 40 odd years of BS in relation to one city and one fundamental project.

Your UK example is rather disrespectfull of a nation that has proved itself at being ground breaking before Ireland even considered exploring the possibility of a small underground project in its capital city. When 40 plus years is factored in, then money is not an excuse.

Sorry UK.

WCML upgrade fiasco
various tube extension fiasco
Hs2 fiasco

We're only in the halfpenny place

Grandeeod · 06-07-2015 09:52PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry UK.

WCML upgrade fiasco
various tube extension fiasco
Hs2 fiasco

We're only in the halfpenny place

What you are putting up as a defence is light years ahead of Ireland and on a different planet/era. This thread is about a mickey mouse underground section of railway that has been reinvented over and over again. Your comparisons sound like some kind of Irish politicical justification for its own failure.

BoatMad · 06-07-2015 09:55PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

What you are putting up as a defence is light years ahead of Ireland and on a different planet/era. This thread is about a mickey mouse underground section of railway that has been reinvented over and over again. Your comparisons sound like some kind of Irish politicical justification for its own failure.

In the context of Ireland , both DU and MN are big capital projects. I do not see we benefit from jumping the gun, Irish rails ability to deliver quality rail service is very much in doubt in my opinion.

Grandeeod · 06-07-2015 10:02PM

BoatMad wrote: »

In the context of Ireland , both DU and MN are big capital projects. I do not see we benefit from jumping the gun, Irish rails ability to deliver quality rail service is very much in doubt in my opinion.

I was only ever speaking in the context of Ireland and over the last 40 plus years and in relation to this thread. Your comparisons are irrelavent.

BoatMad · 06-07-2015 10:05PM

Grandeeod wrote: »

I was only ever speaking in the context of Ireland and over the last 40 plus years and in relation to this thread. Your comparisons are irrelavent.

I was demonstrating by example how many public transport project run into the sand from time to time. We are not alone in that regard.

look at the spectacular success of the motorway building programme for example

Grandeeod · 06-07-2015 10:13PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I was demonstrating by example how many public transport project run into the sand from time to time. We are not alone in that regard.

look at the spectacular success of the motorway building programme for example

In rail terms, you are out of context, because its one underground project doing the rounds for 40 plus years. Thats a fact. I'm sure I don't have to explain how it's been reinvented over the years?

The motorway building programme has nothing more to do with this, with the exception that it was done, as roads are always preferred by Irish Politicos. But the Irish motorway systyem was actually a good idea.

cgcsb · 07-07-2015 09:43AM

Calina wrote: »

I left Brussels 15 years ago. In that time, they have reconfigured their metro system, built extra stations, reorganised the buses and some of the trams and are a year or so behind but actively building an RER system. They have a far more intelligent fare system and their smart cards work an absolute treat.

I'm aware that the economy in Ireland collapsed in 2008 but I think a core contributor to our problems is less the economy and more the yerrah it'll do grand attitude.

One of my main criticisms of Ireland and Irish politics is the complete lack of vision. I don't care if the UK's cross rail project runs late. It is no excuse to say "yerrah we're incompetent, but we are not alone so it's grand.".

Can we please be different to other countries? Can we build sensible public transport, reconfigure the city centre to make it more pleasant, and integrate the different transport modes more effectively?

Dublin is a chaotic mess at the moment. I don't think it has not been a chaotic mess since I've been living here, both this stretch of time and the previous one. But it doesn't have to be that way, could be the coolest city in the world if we worked to make it so. It's got stunning buildings, and O'Connell Street could be an extraordinary plaza with some planning.

Rather than saying "other countries are no better". We could do a lot better than we're doing.

I wouldn't even mind if we compared ourselves to decent examples. In terms of public transport we generally just ape what provincial cities in the UK have.

cgcsb · 07-07-2015 09:44AM

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry UK.

WCML upgrade fiasco
various tube extension fiasco
Hs2 fiasco

We're only in the halfpenny place

HS2 is a fiasco? how?

cgcsb · 07-07-2015 02:43PM

Remember a while ago Leo said that IÉ were re-writing the business case for DARTu? Was that so they could change their conclusion to 'we might be alright without it, recommend using Phoenix Park tunnel isntead' or was it simply a case of more jobs for consultants. Are we to expect an outcome for said business case before sept?

LXFlyer · 07-07-2015 02:56PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Remember a while ago Leo said that IÉ were re-writing the business case for DARTu? Was that so they could change their conclusion to 'we might be alright without it, recommend using Phoenix Park tunnel isntead' or was it simply a case of more jobs for consultants. Are we to expect an outcome for said business case before sept?

I don't think you will find that IE have any appetite for replacing DART Underground with the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Quite the opposite.

cgcsb · 07-07-2015 04:07PM

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think you will find that IE have any appetite for replacing DART Underground with the Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Quite the opposite.

Of course, but IÉ didn't want the Western rail corridor re-opened either, they got it, and had to write a report with Aecom about how it 'may be viable' into the bargain.

sdanseo · 07-07-2015 08:03PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Of course, but IÉ didn't want the Western rail corridor re-opened either, they got it, and had to write a report with Aecom about how it 'may be viable' into the bargain.

Please can we not further sully the already terrible mood in this thread with talk of another dismal failure in the Irish transport network.

WRC was the biggest waste of money in modern memory. Well, until Irish Water came along, anyway. I've read of as few as FIVE people on a service.

cgcsb · 08-07-2015 09:32AM

Well we have 2 months until a decision on DARTu. Lets just keep our fingers crossed. Also remember there are competing interests. Galway(pop. 75,000) wants a €700,000 ring road instead of a much cheaper improved bus network.

We're spending 700,000 on a motorway between Tuam and Gort.

There will be demands for €1.5bn for the M20, M40 and Dunkettle interchange projects.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 12:33PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Well we have 2 months until a decision on DARTu. Lets just keep our fingers crossed. Also remember there are competing interests. Galway(pop. 75,000) wants a €700,000 ring road instead of a much cheaper improved bus network.

We're spending 700,000 on a motorway between Tuam and Gort.

There will be demands for €1.5bn for the M20, M40 and Dunkettle interchange projects.

Let's scotch the idea, that there is or should be any connection between motorway investment and rail investment.

Road transport is carrying 95% of all journeys, it's a necessary feature of our lives.
Rail transport is a minoroty activity arguably outside a few Luas lines , is not necessary for the functioning of our state.

In reality Dublin could be handled by a series of Luas lines and the closure of IE.

In practice , it's just the public sector politics that keeps IE in existence

That's the sorry truth

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 12:35PM

cgcsb wrote: »

Well we have 2 months until a decision on DARTu. Lets just keep our fingers crossed. Also remember there are competing interests. Galway(pop. 75,000) wants a €700,000 ring road instead of a much cheaper improved bus network.

We're spending 700,000 on a motorway between Tuam and Gort.

There will be demands for €1.5bn for the M20, M40 and Dunkettle interchange projects.

Funny , how the Phoenix park tunnel is back in play , now that DU seems to be fading into the distance. IE have a lot to answer for. Too much " project decisions " and not enough " project appraisal "

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 12:48PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Funny , how the Phoenix park tunnel is back in play , now that DU seems to be fading into the distance. IE have a lot to answer for. Too much " project decisions " and not enough " project appraisal "

Well to be fair using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is an NTA decision and it's one where they are trying to maximise the return on the investment in the city centre resignalling project, by routing more trains over the loop line bridge.

I'm not sure why you are blaming IE for the DART Underground delay? This is a political decision and no matter how hard individual agencies work, political decisions are never ever straightforward.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 01:01PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well to be fair using the Phoenix Park Tunnel is an NTA decision and it's one where they are trying to maximise the return on the investment in the city centre resignalling project, by routing more trains over the loop line bridge.

I'm not sure why you are blaming IE for the DART Underground delay? This is a political decision and no matter how hard individual agencies work, political decisions are never ever straightforward.

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

Captain Chaos · 10-07-2015 01:03PM

BoatMad wrote: »

In reality Dublin could be handled by a series of Luas lines and the closure of IE.

In practice , it's just the public sector politics that keeps IE in existence

That's the sorry truth

You are having a laugh. Do you use public transport in Dublin. During peak hours there are DARTs 10-15mins apart with around 900 passengers on each.

No light rail system can manage that amount properly. During the boom years DART loads were 1000-1200 per train every 15mins.

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 01:06PM

BoatMad wrote: »

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

It wouldn't have made much odds given that the funding was withheld for the City Centre Resignalling Project.

Without that, using the tunnel would be pointless as neither Connolly nor the Loop Line bridge would have had the capacity to cope with those extra trains.

jd · 10-07-2015 01:09PM

BoatMad wrote: »

IE could have pushed the park tunnel as an interim solution yet for years back-pedalled on it. I just finished reading ersi critique of strategic rail reviews ( 2001) specifically mentions the way park tunnel was pushed as " unsuitable " as DU was the " bright new thing "

It's what happens when you have engineer driven projects , where people's income and carears are based on implementing projects

That would be Sean Barrett's paper I presume. Wasn't he against the DART in the early 80s?

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 01:13PM

Captain Chaos wrote: »

You are having a laugh. Do you use public transport in Dublin. During peak hours there are DARTs 10-15mins apart with around 900 passengers on each.

No light rail system can manage that amount properly. During the boom years DART loads were 1000-1200 per train every 15mins.

Yes I do. It's s poor system , badly implemented , fractured and base on decisions made in the 19th century.

I merely state that rail transport simply by dint of percentage of people carried is simply NOT indispensable to public transportation in Dublin.

Partially segregated light rail for example is not significantly different to current infrastructure

I merely offer the view that rail is not necessary to implement a successful public transport policy. That's not to say we are were we are etc.

LXFlyer · 10-07-2015 01:17PM

jd wrote: »

That would be Sean Barrett's paper I presume. Wasn't he against the DART in the early 80s?

Sean Barrett has opposed every heavy rail project mooted in Ireland.

Not the most objective view at all.

BoatMad · 10-07-2015 01:18PM

lxflyer wrote: »

It wouldn't have made much odds given that the funding was withheld for the City Centre Resignalling Project.

Without that, using the tunnel would be pointless as neither Connolly nor the Loop Line bridge would have had the capacity to cope with those extra trains.

I've worked on ctc in the past , the signalling project is unlikely to deliver what's expected of it and I've never seen a proper technical evaluation of why it's needed to allow Phoenix park tunnel traffic.

I think these projects get cross justified to try and get these projects through. It's classic engineer justification process I know I've done similar things elsewhere

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

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