Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

K-9 · 07-07-2015 08:43PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

no mention of Goldman Sachs I see. Responsible not just for getting Greek into the euro by cooking the books, but partly responsible -- along with all criminal bankers -- with the 2008 recession, and in its role as government-banking nexus across the world in turning that recession into a depression in Greece

I don't think Goldman Sachs forced them to do it though.

Jonblack · 07-07-2015 09:28PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Would you perchance have a source for an allegation such as this that might actually lend a shred of credibility to it?[/quote

]On Monday afternoon RTÉ's Tony Connelly said that Michael Noonan was more explicit in his pronouncement of Greece than anyother EZ finance minister. Later that evening Peter Spiegel from the Financial Times tweeted a caption to part of an article reporting that Noonan had tag teamed Germany to gang up on Greece pressing for capital controls to be imposed. Lastnight, there was talk of a 'bank holiday' in Greece tomorrow, only ONE finance minister was saying this, Michael Noonan. Reported today in Greek newspaper Kathimerini

From the The irish times 7/7

Noonan claims he was misquoted on Greek debt stance
Taoiseach rejects claims Mr Noonan ‘stabbed the Greek people in the chest’

Inquitus · 07-07-2015 09:31PM

Jonblack wrote: »

Inquitus wrote: »

Would you perchance have a source for an allegation such as this that might actually lend a shred of credibility to it?[/quote

]On Monday afternoon RTÉ's Tony Connelly said that Michael Noonan was more explicit in his pronouncement of Greece than anyother EZ finance minister. Later that evening Peter Spiegel from the Financial Times tweeted a caption to part of an article reporting that Noonan had tag teamed Germany to gang up on Greece pressing for capital controls to be imposed. Lastnight, there was talk of a 'bank holiday' in Greece tomorrow, only ONE finance minister was saying this, Michael Noonan. Reported today in Greek newspaper Kathimerini.

So in the absence of links that's a no then?

Jonblack · 07-07-2015 09:38PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Jonblack wrote: »

So in the absence of links that's a no then?

Sorry Unable to post links names are there use goole

KingBrian2 · 07-07-2015 09:41PM

Jonblack wrote: »

Ireland forced the capital controls on greek banks the germans backed us up.

"Read all about it"
"Read all About it"
"Irish government responsibly for Greek crisis"
"TD Murphy calls Taoiseach Kenny an international terrorist"

Get your paper while it's hot
"PM Alexis has been vindicated and rewarded the Nobel peace prize"
"Merkel vows to reign destruction on the peoples of Europe"

€3.50 for a paper and get a special interview with the King of Spain and his countries opinion on what to do.

Jonblack · 07-07-2015 10:29PM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

"Read all about it"
"Read all About it"
"Irish government responsibly for Greek crisis"
"TD Murphy calls Taoiseach Kenny an international terrorist"

Get your paper while it's hot
"PM Alexis has been vindicated and rewarded the Nobel peace prize"
"Merkel vows to reign destruction on the peoples of Europe"

€3.50 for a paper and get a special interview with the King of Spain and his countries opinion on what to do.

not sure what you mean? what paper, King of Spain. All this was reported on the night it happened. I don't blame anyone for greek trouble its five years and counting. It was reported in papers and on TV is it true or false who knows.

Permabear · 07-07-2015 10:39PM

This post has been deleted.

KingBrian2 · 07-07-2015 10:45PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Not entirely true, they want to stay in without abiding by the rules. They have been treating the EU as a giant piggy bank. They should remain in the € but not at any cost.

Thomas_. · 08-07-2015 07:14AM

Jonblack wrote: »

Ireland forced the capital controls on greek banks the germans backed us up.

I didn´t know that.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 07:40AM

Games are over. Time for Greece to make its mind up - make a deal and stay in the euro or refuse a deal and return to the drachma:

Live Squawk ‏@livesquawk 15 mins15 minutes ago

ECB’s Noyer Says Greek Economy Is On The ‘Verge Of Catastrophe’ – Europe 1 ITW
-If No Deal Is Reached By Sunday, Sees Chaos In Greece

Live Squawk ‏@livesquawk 11 mins11 minutes ago

ECB’s Noyer Says Liquidity Has Been Maintained To Keep Greece In Euro
-If Reform Pledges Are Credible, Then 3rd Bailout Is Needed $EURUSD

Live Squawk ‏@livesquawk 11 mins11 minutes ago

ECB’s Noyer: ECB Is Obliged To End ELA If There Is No Perspective For Deal

$EURUSD

Jonblack · 08-07-2015 08:06AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It's tripe.[/quote

]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/germany-ireland-demand-ela-curbs-if-no-greek-capital-controls-greek-proposal-reveale
I read the ft report first .l get the hard copy for free it is on line but you have to pay. I think the germans used Mr Noonan for their own means.

Grandpa Hassan · 08-07-2015 08:22AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Games are over. Time for Greece to make its mind up - make a deal and stay in the euro or refuse a deal and return to the drachma:

Equally it's time for the EU to make its mind up. Agree to a restructure including material postponement / forgiveness or cut them loose (and get none of the money back). It's not just a Greek decision

Bob24 · 08-07-2015 08:28AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Equally it's time for the EU to make its mind up. Agree to a restructure including material postponement / forgiveness or cut them loose (and get none of the money back). It's not just a Greek decision

Given what we have heard from EU leaders yesterday I think they have pretty much decided they are ready to let Greece go.

Thomas_. · 08-07-2015 08:41AM

Bob24 wrote: »

Given what we have heard from EU leaders yesterday I think they have pretty much decided they are ready to let Greece go.

I think so too and I also think, that Tsipras has no more good cards in his hands.

Jonblack · 08-07-2015 08:44AM

Bob24 wrote: »

Given what we have heard from EU leaders yesterday I think they have pretty much decided they are ready to let Greece go.

I think they decided a long time ago, if Greece leaves the ez and then default on the next payment to the eu will they then be forced from eu.they cannot be forced out of Europe. The talk of them leaving Europe is wrong it is the EU. Will they still be allowed to trade freely with the EU or have to go somewhere else. Whoever is driving this there are spilts happening with in the eu.France to keep Greece in Germany to get them out. Expect a very angry France next Monday

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 08:46AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Equally it's time for the EU to make its mind up. Agree to a restructure including material postponement / forgiveness or cut them loose (and get none of the money back). It's not just a Greek decision

The rest of the EZ has made its mind up. Either the Greeks play ball or they get lost:

ECB to pull support from Greek banks without a deal

The European Central Bank has warned that failure to reach an agreement on Sunday, will leave it with no choice put to pull the plug on its support for Greek banks.

Christian Noyer, a member of the ECB’s decision-making governing council, said Sunday was the last chance to reach a deal and avoid “catastrophe” for the Greek economy.

Speaking on French radio this morning he said:

"The Greek economy is on the brink of a catastrophe. There must be an agreement next Sunday [12 July] at the very latest. After that it will be too late and the consequences will be grave.

I fear that if there is no agreement on Sunday the Greek economy will collapse and there will be chaos."

The importance of this statement cannot be under-estimated.

The ECB has poured €89bn into the Greek financial system in recent months to stave off collapse, but is barred from lending to insolvent institutions. Noyer, governor of France’s central bank, said Greece’s ECB lifeline could not be stretched indefinitely.

"We have rules and we have interpreted the rules to their limit to maintain a lifeline to Greek banks, but we cannot continue indefinitely to increase the risks we are taking."

http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2015/jul/08/greece-battles-to-avoid-grexit-live

If a deal is not announced on Sunday, the ECB will withdraw ELA from Greek banks and Greece will either have to continue using the euro without a functioning banking system or introduce a replacement currency.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 08:49AM

Jonblack wrote: »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/germany-ireland-demand-ela-curbs-if-no-greek-capital-controls-greek-proposal-reveale
I read the ft report first .l get the hard copy for free it is on line but you have to pay. I think the germans used Mr Noonan for their own means.

Are you aware that Ireland does not control the ECB's Governing Council? :rolleyes:

The Governing Council

Governing Council of the ECB
(as at January 2015)

The Governing Council meets
once a fortnight
The Governing Council is the main decision-making body of the ECB. It consists of

the six members of the Executive Board, plus
the governors of the national central banks of the 19 euro area countries.

Responsibilities

to adopt the guidelines and take the decisions necessary to ensure the performance of the tasks entrusted to the ECB and the Eurosystem;
to formulate monetary policy for the euro area. This includes decisions relating to monetary objectives, key interest rates, the supply of reserves in the Eurosystem, and the establishment of guidelines for the implementation of those decisions.
in the context of the ECB’s new responsibilities related to banking supervision, to adopt decisions relating to the general framework under which supervisory decisions are taken, and to adopt the complete draft decisions proposed by the Supervisory Board under the non-objection procedure.

Meetings and decisions

The Governing Council usually meets twice a month at the ECB’s premises in Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

The Governing Council assesses economic and monetary developments and takes its monetary policy decisions every six weeks. At the other meetings, the Council discusses mainly issues related to other tasks and responsibilities of the ECB and the Eurosystem. To ensure the separation of the ECB’s monetary policy and other tasks from its supervisory responsibilities, separate meetings of the Governing Council are held.

The monetary policy decision is explained in detail at a press conference held every six weeks. The President, assisted by the Vice-President, chairs the press conference.

In addition, the ECB publishes regular accounts of the Governing Council’s monetary policy meetings before the date of the next one.

Find out more about decision-making within the Single Supervisory Mechanism. Banking supervision website
How do voting rights rotate on the ECB Governing Council?

The accession of Lithuania to the euro area on 1 January 2015 triggered a system under which National Central Bank Governors take turns holding voting rights on the Governing Council.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/orga/decisions/govc/html/index.en.html

Frequently Asked Questions on the rotation of voting rights in the Governing Council
What is the rotation system of voting rights on the ECB’s Governing Council?

The rotation system concerns the allocation of voting rights to the members of the European Central Bank’s Governing Council. The Council is the ECB’s highest decision-making body and is responsible for setting interest rates and conducting monetary policy. It consists of six Executive Board members and the 19 national central bank Governors of euro area countries. The accession of Lithuania to the euro area in 2015 triggered a change in the voting rights, as envisaged by the Governing Council in December 2002.
Why is a rotation of voting rights necessary?

It helps maintain the Governing Council’s ability to take action even as the number of euro area countries gradually increases and with them, the number of members of the Governing Council. According to European Union treaties, the rotation system had to be implemented as soon as the number of Governors exceeded 18, which was the case on 1 January 2015 when Lithuania joined the euro area.
Which Governors have voting rights in a given month and which do not?

Euro area countries are divided into groups according to the size of their economies and their financial sectors. To determine which national central bank Governor belongs to which group, a ranking was established. The Governors from countries ranked first to fifth – currently, Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands – share four voting rights. All others (14 since Lithuania joined on 1 January 2015) share 11 voting rights. The Governors take turns using the rights on a monthly rotation.

Basically the Irish representative on the ECB's Governing Council gets to vote only in certain months, and gets one vote out of a pool of eleven which is shared between fourteen EZ countries.

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/orga/decisions/govc/html/faqvotingrights.en.html

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 08:59AM

Some questions for Tsipras:

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 52m52 minutes ago

See next Tweets for 8 questions @tsipras_eu should answer in @Europarl_EN this morning #Greece #GreeceCrisis

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 51 mins51 minutes ago

Q1 of 8 for MEPs/Tsipras: FAIRNESS
1) Why shd countries poorer than Greece, that reformed without bailouts, give #Greece money for a 3rd?

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 50 mins50 minutes ago

Q2 of 8 for MEPs / Tsipras:
Why should other bailout countries be the ones who stick by their word, while #Greece gets a free pass?

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 49 mins49 minutes ago

Q3 of 8 for MEPs / Tsipras:
Why must #EU break/twist rules so #Greece can offer well-off tourists tax discount when visiting Greek islands?

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 46 mins46 minutes ago

Q4 of 8 for MEPs/Tsipras:
Why will this time be different? (Structural reforms rather than cuts have been mostly deferred/ignored) #Greece

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 46 mins46 minutes ago

Q5 of 8 for MEPs/Tsipras:
What will the creditors get in return for the €30 billion or so #Greece wants to borrow?

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 45 mins45 minutes ago

Q6 of 8 for MEPs / Tsipras: PRACTICALITY
6) What are the true red lines for #Greece, and what are the nice-to-have / let’s-talk issues?

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 44 mins44 minutes ago

Q7 of 8 for MEPs / Tsipras:
What is the timeline and plan for re-introduction of the #drachma if an agreement cannot be reached? #Greece

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 44 mins44 minutes ago

Q8 of 8 for MEPs / Tsipras:
How much humanitarian aid would be required to ensure social stability?
#Greece #GreeceCrisis

Jonblack · 08-07-2015 09:05AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Are you aware that Ireland does not control the ECB's Governing Council? :rolleyes:

Yes fully. I read a report in the FT. If you read the link it makes that clear. The German have a big say as they but large amounts of money in. Not control but influence,
As I said Mr Noonan i think was used. It was printed in the FT not the Sun.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 09:25AM

Ryan Heath ‏@PoliticoRyan 15 mins15 minutes ago

Tusk reconfirms #EU will pull the rug from under #Greece on Sunday if govt doesn't do a deal by then. "stark reality is there's 4 days left"

Tusk = Donald Tusk, President of the European Council.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 09:30AM

Jonblack wrote: »

Yes fully. I read a report in the FT. If you read the link it makes that clear. The German have a big say as they but large amounts of money in. Not control but influence,
As I said Mr Noonan i think was used. It was printed in the FT not the Sun.

Ireland's representative on the ECB's Governing Council has one out of a pool of 11 votes which is shared on a rotation basis between 14 countries.

The ECB's Governing Council has 25 members.

This chart shows the months for 2015 (1 = January, 2 = February etc) for which the Irish representative on the ECB's Governing Council has a vote:

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/orga/decisions/govc/html/votingrights.en.html

He had no vote in January and February - February was the month when the ECB took the key decision to place extra restrictions on the ELA it would provide to the Greek banking system.

I'm not sure how having one vote out of twenty-five makes Ireland the boss of the ECB's Governing Council, the body that makes the decsions on ELA, but maybe it's explained in the FT's article... :P

By the way, Michael Noonan is not Ireland's representative on the ECB's Governing Council. That job is held by the head of Ireland's Central Bank.

Grandpa Hassan · 08-07-2015 09:37AM

marmurr1916 wrote: »

The rest of the EZ has made its mind up. Either the Greeks play ball or they get lost:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2015/jul/08/greece-battles-to-avoid-grexit-live

If a deal is not announced on Sunday, the ECB will withdraw ELA from Greek banks and Greece will either have to continue using the euro without a functioning banking system or introduce a replacement currency.

I thing they're better out than being forced to stick with a status quo that doesn't work, contains zero debt reduction, and will drive their economy inevitably deeper and deeper into the ground. The EU will provide humanitarian assistance to Greece, and the IMF will do its usual thing to assist / manage bankrupted states. Meanwhile, the EU has a huge problem on its hands with a failed state within it, and presumably completely porous and unpoliced borders with Turkey.

Seriously, with this and the failure of the EU to even begin to agree to any okay to deal with the immigration problem, it's no wonder that the Americans are laughing at the ineptness of EU leadership. It's a joke

NIMAN · 08-07-2015 09:45AM

This looks like its all coming to a head and gonna get very messy come Sunday, unless something is sorted out at the 11th hour.

You know for a fact that the EZ is going to come out of this looking like the bad guy to the normal man in the street, but the Greeks are not helping themselves at all in all this.
Imagine a Government coming to negotiations with no new proposals when they said they would.

They look like complete amateurs at this stage and I really do fear for the Greeks, although they have democratically backed these amateurs now on 2 occasions, so perhaps they are only reaping what they have sown.

Crosswind · 08-07-2015 09:47AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Imagine a Government coming to negotiations with no new proposals when they said they would.

They did. They just weren't acceptable by the rest.

08-07-2015 09:53AM

Guy Verhofstadt (Chair of European Liberals and Democrats) is going to town on Tsipras on the inactions of the Greek politicians over the last 5 years.

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 09:57AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I thing they're better out than being forced to stick with a status quo that doesn't work, contains zero debt reduction, and will drive their economy inevitably deeper and deeper into the ground. The EU will provide humanitarian assistance to Greece, and the IMF will do its usual thing to assist / manage bankrupted states. Meanwhile, the EU has a huge problem on its hands with a failed state within it, and presumably completely porous and unpoliced borders with Turkey.

Seriously, with this and the failure of the EU to even begin to agree to any okay to deal with the immigration problem, it's no wonder that the Americans are laughing at the ineptness of EU leadership. It's a joke

The Greeks have a completley porous and unpoliced border with Turkey?

As I think is evident from Greece's high military spending, and its comprehensive military and police networks along its land and maritime borders with Turkey, the idea that Greece has "completely porous and unpoliced borders with Turkey" is not sustained by any credible evidence.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greek-border-patrol-to-be-made-permanent/

http://beta.trtworld.com/news.php?q=turkey-europe-turkey-bulgaria-greece-to-form-joint-border-patrols-1895

A chief of police in a border town in northeastern Greece says irregular migrants are no longer crossing into the country from its land border with Turkey.

Barbed-wire fences, landmines, thermal night vision cameras and regular patrols are among the tools used to stop a phenomenon the Greek state considers a national security threat.

A skull and crossbone marks a minefield in Greece near the Turkish border. (Photo: Nikolaj Nielsen)

Some 55,000 people were detected attempting to wade across the Evros River into Greece from Turkey in the region in 2011.

The figures have now dropped to near zero, says Pashalis Syritoudis, director of police in the run-down Greek border village of Orestiadas.

"In July 2012 we had 6,500 illegal migrants who passed the border. In August, we had only 1,800. In September, only 71 illegal immigrants, in October only 26 and now there are none," he told EUobserver on 22 November.

Orestiadas is six kilometres west of the Evros river on the Greek-Turkish border.

It is home to a large number of Greek police officers, military personnel and staff from the EU's Warsaw-based border control agency, Frontex.

From his modest office at the police headquarters, Syritoudis oversees border operations in a jurisdiction that covers an 80-km-long stretch of the Evros river as well as the 12.5-km-long land border with Turkey.

https://euobserver.com/fortress-eu/118439

In fact, far from having a porous and open border with Turkey, Greece has faced court action for its over-zealous patrollling of its maritime borders with Turkey, including 'pushing back' potential asylum seekers into Turkish waters, resulting in Greece losing cases at the ECHR:

http://www.frontexit.org/fr/docs/49-frontexbetween-greece-and-turkey-the-border-of-denial/file

Riverireland · 08-07-2015 09:59AM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I thing they're better out than being forced to stick with a status quo that doesn't work, contains zero debt reduction, and will drive their economy inevitably deeper and deeper into the ground. The EU will provide humanitarian assistance to Greece, and the IMF will do its usual thing to assist / manage bankrupted states. Meanwhile, the EU has a huge problem on its hands with a failed state within it, and presumably completely porous and unpoliced borders with Turkey.

Seriously, with this and the failure of the EU to even begin to agree to any okay to deal with the immigration problem, it's no wonder that the Americans are laughing at the ineptness of EU leadership. It's a joke

Totally agree. I'd say the Americans are going to stop laughing shortly though, looking like one of those "situations".

08-07-2015 10:05AM

MEPs are extremely disappointed that Tsipras came to the parliament with rhetoric and no examples and specifics.

Rebecca Harms of European Greens first sided with him, expressed sympathy, and then repeatedly exclaimed that Tsipras is going about this all the wrong way.

Live Stream for iPlayer - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament

marmurr1916 · 08-07-2015 10:07AM

Riverireland wrote: »

I think they are child like and rhetorical.

Never mind their tone, what about their substance? Should Greece be able to avoid taking measures that countries which are significantly poorer than Greece have already taken?

08-07-2015 10:10AM

Farage has called for Tsipras to "Lead Greece out of the Euro".

Greece Debt Crisis - Après Oxi

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