8th Amendment

Kev W · 22-06-2015 11:40AM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Yes indeed. That surely must form "a large bulk"

Now now, you know you're only supposed to count the non-irish ones if you're anti-choice.

lazygal · 22-06-2015 11:41AM

Kev W wrote: »

Now now, you know you're only supposed to count the non-irish ones if you're anti-choice.

Is that like.how RTE silences the pro-life message?

conorh91 · 22-06-2015 11:45AM

lazygal wrote: »

Why would they come to Dublin to attend a symposium on excellence in maternal health that focused on how to keep women in Ireland unable to access abortion services here?

It's a medical symposium. They happen regularly. All over the world.

I notice you've now retreated from criticizing the attendance of medical experts outside of obstetrics, like surgeons and neonatologists, and are focussing on a marginal number of nurses and medical students.

I assume the medical students and nurses were invited to sign the Declaration out of courtesy. But disregard them if you like. I certainly have. I'm focusing on the large amount of experts, especially fellows of the best-recognized postgraduate colleges, and clinicians involved in academic work.

Can you even point to say, 5 clinicians who have refuted this declaration?

lazygal · 22-06-2015 11:49AM

conorh91 wrote: »

It's a medical symposium. They happen regularly. All over the world.

I notice you've now retreated from criticizing the attendance of medical experts outside of obstetrics, like surgeons and neonatologists, and are focussing on a marginal number of nurses and medical students.

I assume the medical students and nurses were invited to sign the Declaration out of courtesy. But disregard them if you like. I certainly have. I'm focusing on the large amount of experts, especially fellows of the best-recognized colleges and clinicians involved in academic work.

Can you even point to ten clinicians who have refuted this declaration?

Conor, put down the shovel. The Dublin declaration is a farce. Why exactly are you so focused on it? I know you think it's some sort of.shining light for why the abortion law here is A1 but you're wrong. Of course you'll ignore the other posts pointing out how wrong you are. I used to be like you. I thought the system here was fine and worked well for women. Then I grew up a bit and realised women and girls in Ireland deserve better. Especially better than the Dublin declaration.

pmasterson95 · 22-06-2015 11:51AM

I still find it hilarious that a key cornerstone of conors whole argument is based around a minority being a "large bulk"

lazygal · 22-06-2015 11:52AM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

I still find it hilarious that a key cornerstone of conors whole argument is based around a minority being a "large bulk"

He also edited his post from.ten to five who.refute the declaration. It's a numbers game alright.

conorh91 · 22-06-2015 11:53AM

lazygal wrote: »

The Dublin declaration is a farce.

I'll take that as a "No Conor, I don't even know of 5 doctors who have refuted this document signed by hundreds"

lazygal wrote: »

He also edited his post from.ten to five who.refute the declaration. It's a numbers game alright.

Ten was too ambitious. I thought you might have some remote chance of finding five.

lazygal · 22-06-2015 11:54AM

conorh91 wrote: »

I'll take that as a "No Conor, I don't even know of 5 doctors who have refuted this document signed by hundreds"

I'll take it that your definition of a "large bulk" is different to most other people's.

conorh91 · 22-06-2015 11:54AM

lazygal wrote: »

I'll take it that your definition of a "large bulk" is different to most other people's.

Can you find three?

Humour me.

lazygal · 22-06-2015 11:57AM

conorh91 wrote: »

Can you find three?

Humour me.

Three what? Doctors in fields unrelated to obstetrics? Nurses not yet qualified? People able to sign an online declaration?
What's a large bulk anyway? Is it the same as the large bulk of Patricia Casey's colleagues who opposed the recent Act?

Delirium · 22-06-2015 11:57AM

conorh91 wrote: »

18 are Fellows of the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, including 3 Professors of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, 2 of whom have also been Masters of Irish maternity hospitals. Fellows of the College are leading experts in their field who have been elected Fellows by their peers.

13 are members of the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology. These are doctors on the Specialist Register eligible to be considered 'run of the mill' consultant obstetricians.

46 are Fellows of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology.

But boardsies know best….

How about the American College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology themselves?

The following statement is the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists’ (ACOG) general policy related to abortion.

The College’s clinical guidelines related to abortion and additional information are contained in the relevant Practice Bulletins, Committee Opinions, and other College documents.

Induced abortion is an essential component of women’s health care. Like all medical matters, decisions regarding abortion should be made by patients in consultation with their health care providers and without undue interference by outside parties. Like all patients, women obtaining abortion are entitled to privacy, dignity, respect, and support.

The College continues to affirm the legal right of a woman to obtain an abortion prior to fetal viability. ACOG is opposed to abortion of the healthy fetus that has attained viability in a healthy woman. Viability is the capacity of the fetus for sustained survival outside the woman’s uterus. Whether or not this capacity exists is a medical determination, may vary with each pregnancy and is a matter for the judgment of the responsible health care provider.

Source]

conorh91 · 22-06-2015 11:58AM

SW wrote: »

How about the American College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology themselves?

That's been answered at length. 46 fellows of the college also signed the dublin declaration, which is not at odds with the ACOG's statement.

The two statements apply two different meanings to the word abortion.

come on… three?

Don't make me go lower.

pmasterson95 · 22-06-2015 11:59AM

lazygal wrote: »

Three what? Doctors in fields unrelated to obstetrics? Nurses not yet qualified? People able to sign an online declaration?
What's a large bulk anyway? Is it the same as the large bulk of Patricia Casey's colleagues who opposed the recent Act?

Me you and professor plum? Thats a large bulk I guess

22-06-2015 12:01PM

conorh91 wrote: »

That's been answered at length. 46 fellows of the college also signed the dublin declaration, which is not at odds with the ACOG's statement.

The two statements apply two different meanings to the word abortion.

come on… three?

Don't make me go lower.

Could you compare and contrast the two positions for us?

I don't think I'd be confident asserting the bolded text myself.

lazygal · 22-06-2015 12:01PM

conorh91 wrote: »

That's been answered at length. 46 fellows of the college also signed the dublin declaration, which is not at odds with the ACOG's statement.

The two statements apply two different meanings to the word abortion.

come on… three?

Don't make me go lower.

Ah the old direct abortion versus our abortion that isn't really an abortion line again. Three what, Conor? People who didn't sign the Dublin declaration? Well there's Rhona Mahony for a start. And my father who's a doctor, just not of obstetrics. And my doctor friend. And any of the obstetric professionals I've had treating me. And me. I didn't sign it. Did you?

ProfessorPlum · 22-06-2015 12:01PM

:rolleyes:

conorh91 wrote: »

That's been answered at length. 46 fellows of the college also signed the dublin declaration, which is not at odds with the ACOG's statement.

The two statements apply two different meanings to the word abortion.

come on… three?

Don't make me go lower.

Well of course the Dublin Declaration was only concerned with the theological definition! Fancy that.

How about the entire membership of 'Doctors for Choice'. Oh and me, lazygal and pmasterson.

And I didn't see the names of the many hundreds of medical professionals I've crossed paths with over the years.

conorh91 · 22-06-2015 12:06PM

Ah the old direct abortion versus our abortion that isn't really an abortion line again.

Yep.

lazygal wrote: »

People who didn't sign the Dublin declaration?

No, doctors with a medical specialty.

I have to go and do some work, but I'm glad you managed to find at least one specialist medical doctor who opposes the Declaration. Any advance on 1? I'll be sure to check in later… best of luck.

Kev W · 22-06-2015 12:09PM

conorh91 wrote: »

That's been answered at length. 46 fellows of the college also signed the dublin declaration, which is not at odds with the ACOG's statement.

The two statements apply two different meanings to the word abortion.

come on… three?

Don't make me go lower.

46 fellows out of a membership of over 55,000.

ProfessorPlum · 22-06-2015 12:09PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Yep.

No, doctors with a medical specialty.

I have to go and do some work, but I'm glad you managed to find at least one specialist medical doctor who opposes the Declaration. Any advance on 1? I'll be sure to check in later… best of luck.

Are you not reading my posts now either?

The entire membership of Doctors for Choice. Again. Will that do?

Now hurry up and get your medical degree and you can sign it too!

lazygal · 22-06-2015 12:10PM

Who wants to sign the Lazygal declaration? A large bulk of posters are welcome to sign it, as soon as I get around to it.

ProfessorPlum · 22-06-2015 12:10PM

Kev W wrote: »

46 fellows out of a membership of over 55,000.

Gosh, that many! That must be a large bulk of them.:D

pmasterson95 · 22-06-2015 12:14PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Gosh, that many! That must be a large bulk of them.:D

Sure isnt it always a large bulk is for the minority while a little bulk is the majority.

Loafing Oaf · 22-06-2015 01:24PM

SW wrote: »

How about the American College of Obstetrics and Gynaecology themselves?

Source]

No no keep up, it's okay for ob/gyns outside Ireland to have a different definition of abortion to the Dublin declaration guys, but once inside our borders, words mean what devout Catholic doctors say they mean...

K-9 · 22-06-2015 02:26PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

You're wrong.

conorh91 wrote: »

You're wrong.

Mod:

That's quite enough of your wrong, no your wrong stuff! I know it's the internet and somebody has to be always right, but people can agree to differ or just leave it if it's open to interpretation.

If both are going to continue like that above take it to pm please, stop clogging the thread up with it please.

conorh91 wrote: »

You've also engaged in outright lies on this thread so I'll leave you to your own devices.

Don't do this please, its against the charter and it's expected you can stand over it.

More importantly its unfair on another poster and not helpful to debate.

traprunner · 22-06-2015 02:30PM

conorh91 wrote: »

Can you even point to say, 5 clinicians who have refuted this declaration?

How about all those that didn't sign it?

Black Menorca · 22-06-2015 06:57PM

Sadly, there are many clinicians in this country who countenance a future situation where some of their patients may be intentionally killed in the womb. Hence why they ran a mile from the Dublin Declaration.

Kev W · 22-06-2015 07:03PM

Black Menorca wrote: »

Sadly, there are many clinicians in this country who countenance a future situation where some of their patients may be intentionally killed in the womb. Hence why they ran a mile from the Dublin Declaration.

That's about as sensible as the "if everyone was gay the human race would die out" argument. Abortion being made legal won't result in a drought of Ill people.

Black Menorca · 22-06-2015 07:06PM

Kev W wrote: »

That's about as sensible as the "if everyone was gay the human race would die out" argument. Abortion being made legal won't result in a drought of Ill people.

How did you read that I was referring to a drought of ill people in my post?

No Voter And Proud · 23-06-2015 08:45AM

Kev W wrote: »

That's about as sensible as the "if everyone was gay the human race would die out" argument. Abortion being made legal won't result in a drought of Ill people.

While factually correct, of course.

Delirium · 23-06-2015 08:46AM

No Voter And Proud wrote: »

While factually correct, of course.

because being homosexual means a person can't reproduce

8th Amendment

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