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8th Amendment

1…4647495152…65

Comments

  • #1442
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still refusing to answer. Speaks volumes.

    Do you view such illegality as a denial of a woman's bodily integrity? If not, why not.

    You love getting answers but not giving. Says a lot.


  • #1443
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Menorca how on earth can you harp about bodily integrity when 24 hours you advocated 24 hour monitoring to ensure the baby is born regardless off the mothers wishes.


  • #1444
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    somewhat amusing comment considering we're discussing abortions that are purely hypothetical so far.


    Do you have a link to show that 2,000 late term abortions happen at 34 weeks each year in the US? All the stats I can find group all late terms as >20, >21 or >24.

    Still deflecting I see. I never said all 2,000 occur at 34 weeks. Google is your friend. But it does happen.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2003/10/did_i_violate_the_partialbirth_abortion_ban.html

    Now are you ready to answer this time? If not just say so.


  • #1445
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,176 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Well I was more interested by this part of your statement: You are...
    ...skeptical of their claims since there aren't both pro-life and pro-choice (to avoid bias from one side or the other) doctors signing the letter.

    Firstly, we don't know that these doctors are pro-life. It is possible to reject a clinical reason for abortion whilst advancing an ethical basis for abortion (in fact, would not most pro-choice people reject a reliance on clinical approaches?)

    Secondly, I don't see how you can be skeptical without knowing whether the remaining members of their faculty agree or disagree with them. They are silent. No agreement, and no contradiction.

    All but one of the signatories were also signatories to the Youth Defence-organised "Dublin Declaration". I think that's reason enough to believe they're anti-choice.


  • #1446
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    DP


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  • #1447
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Similar issues at the Rotunda.

    Indeed.


  • #1448
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Well I was more interested by this part of your statement: You are...
    ...skeptical of their claims since there aren't both pro-life and pro-choice (to avoid bias from one side or the other) doctors signing the letter.
    Firstly, we don't know that these doctors are pro-life. It is possible to reject a clinical reason for abortion whilst advancing an ethical basis for abortion (in fact, would not most pro-choice people reject a reliance on clinical approaches?)
    All doctors aside from one are signatories of the Dublin Declaration. Any information I can find on doctors that signed the declaration indicate a group of doctors that align with conservative Christian groups and/or pro-life groups.
    Secondly, I don't see how you can be skeptical without knowing whether the remaining members of their faculty agree or disagree with them. They are silent. No agreement, and no contradiction.
    How can I be skeptical about the opinion of the Irish medical community with only a handful of pro-lfe doctors speaking against Amnesty? It's because only one side of the abortion debate has made their opinion known. I'm therefore skeptical that it is representative of the entire/majority of medical community.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1449
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    DP

    Debt Protection?


  • #1450
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Still deflecting I see. I never said all 2,000 occur at 34 weeks. Google is your friend. But it does happen.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2003/10/did_i_violate_the_partialbirth_abortion_ban.html

    Now are you ready to answer this time? If not just say so.
    any chance you could cease with the frequent shifting of the goalposts?

    we were discussing abortion at 34 weeks. I gave my opinion as a follow up asked how numerous were the instances of abortion at 34 weeks.

    You subsequently mentioned partial birth abortions and that 2,000 happen yearly in the US. It now seems that you're expanding the discussion to abortions >20 weeks rather than the original 34. I can only surmise that you, much like myself, were unable to find any stats on abortions at 34 weeks.

    Anywho, to answer for about the 5th or 6th time in 24 hours, I support free access to abortion (regardless of reason) until the foetus is viable.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1451
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    All but one of the signatories were also signatories to the Youth Defence-organised "Dublin Declaration". I think that's reason enough to believe they're anti-choice.
    Youth Defence did not organize the symposium that led to the Dublin declaration.

    Even if that were true, it would not detract from the clinical opinions of accredited experts. Many well-respected experts address civic society groups, trade unions, and political parties; even to make critical observations.
    SW wrote: »
    Any information I can find on doctors that signed the declaration indicate a group of doctors that align with conservative Christian groups and/or pro-life groups.
    Would you mind sharing that information here, please?


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  • #1452
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    any chance you could cease with the frequent shifting of the goalposts?

    we were discussing abortion at 34 weeks. I gave my opinion as a follow up asked how numerous were the instances of abortion at 34 weeks.

    You subsequently mentioned partial birth abortions and that 2,000 happen yearly in the US. It now seems that you're expanding the discussion to abortions >20 weeks rather than the original 34. I can only surmise that you, much like myself, were unable to find any stats on abortions at 34 weeks.

    Anywho, to answer for about the 5th or 6th time in 24 hours, I support free access to abortion (regardless of reason) until the foetus is viable.

    And when viability is reached?


  • #1453
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    conorh91 wrote: »
    I'm not necessarily saying there should never be abortions in Irish hospitals, even in cases of suicidal intent. I have a fairly open mind on that, but at the moment I am concerned both about a lack of evidence, and the personal testimony of women who have regretted their decision to have an abortion, which in some cases they probably had no capacity to make.

    For example, I find it incredible that there is an Irishwoman only 7 years older than myself, who was taken to England by a social worker for an abortion she now regrets, and apparently spends every day grieving for. That woman, of course, is Miss C, who rarely gets a mention despite the trauma she apparently endures on a daily basis.
    .

    the way I see it, in Ireland, in order to get an abortion on the grounds of suicidal intent, a woman must be seen by two psychiatrists. Given these are the professionals whose expertise is in mental health, surely they are in the best position to judge wether the woman is suicidal and indeed competent to consent. Medicine is not an exact science, but the diagnosis by the experts is the best we have a this point - maybe we'd be better letting them decide in each individual case, rather than relying on our own gut feeling, or general research, which is never case specific anyway.

    As for Miss C, hers is a very sad story. To be honest, I'm not that surprised that she has issues. She was raped at 13 (by a family member iirc), taken into care, was suicidal, and had an abortion at her own request. But not before her parents dragged her through the courts to challenge the decision. The psychiatrists who saw her were of the opinion that she was at high risk of suicide, and the risk would increase as the pregnancy progressed. What if she hadn't been allowed an abortion and had killed herself? Would that have been better? Would she have so much regret now if she had been supported and loved by her family at the time? Who knows. It's a tough case. Certain not black and white.


  • #1454
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    ProfessorPlum wrote: »
    Given these are the professionals whose expertise is in mental health, surely they are in the best position to judge wether the woman is suicidal and indeed competent to consent.
    Yet as we have seen, when 30 Irish hospital consultants express an opinion in light of their expert training, it is rejected.

    Prof. Patricia Casey is another accredited expert whose clinical views have been widely lambasted by lay commentators, despite the fact that experts of her own rank have not denied the accuracy of her observations on abortion and the lack of associated mental health benefits.

    I'm not sure why you felt the need to provide a synopsis of the Miss C case. I mentioned it because I am aware of the background. Clearly, Miss C is the epitome of teenage, suicidal rape victims and who, because of the trauma they have suffered, are in absolutely no position to determine the best, most clinically-advisable course of action over the long term.


  • #1455
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Would you mind sharing that information here, please?

    Letter sent out by the organiser of the Dublin Declaration event.
    The following information/request is from Dr. Eoghan de Faoite of Ireland, speaking for the International Symposium on Maternal Health recently held in Dublin. Please read it carefully, and we encourage you to respond.

    Dear ProLife Doctor,


    As you may be aware there is currently a global push for abortion legislation in Ireland which will introduce abortion into this country for the first time in history. The pressure to legalize abortion is huge and is coming from international powers including the European Union.


    The push towards legalized abortion is being sold to the people under the guise of “maternal health,” and unfortunately abortion campaigners are succeeding in convincing people that abortion is healthcare, and it is needed to save women’s lives. As a response to this confusion, a major International Symposium on Maternal Health was held in Dublin last month which featured experts from around the world, each presenting on aspects relating to obstetrics and maternal mortality. The Symposium hosted over 150 medical professionals and it concluded that abortion is not medically necessary to save women’s lives. A statement was launched which is now known as the Dublin Declaration on Maternal Health and reads:


    “As experienced practitioners and researchers in Obstetrics and Gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion – the purposeful destruction of the unborn in the termination of pregnancy – is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman. We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion, and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatments results in the loss of life of her unborn child. We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of of optimal care to a pregnant woman”
    It appears the Irish Government will press forward soon with “guidelines” on abortion and is likely to redefine treatments for ectopic pregnancies, cancer etc as “lawful abortions”. Ireland has an excellent track record in relation to maternal health, with one of the lowest rates of maternal mortality in the entire world. Our ban on abortion is not just symbolic, it is proof that a country can protect both women and children without access to abortion.


    We plead with you at this time of crisis in Ireland to please consider supporting the Dublin Declaration in your professional capacity as an Obstetrician. This declaration may be the deciding factor on whether Ireland legalizes abortion or continues to protect life. All that you need to do is email your support to info@symposiummaternalhealth.com or register through our website at www.symposiummaternalhealth.com. You will not only be helping Ireland at this time but the global pro-life community.


    On behalf of the pro-life movement in Ireland I want to thank you in advance for your support.


    Please do not hesitate to get in contact if you have any further questions,
    God bless
    Dr. Eoghan de Faoite
    International Symposium on Maternal Health
    Source


    And it's something of an indication of the nature of the event when the chair-person writes text such as: What is Natural Law and What is its Bearing on Obstetrics and Gynaecology? THE FUTURE OF OBSTETRICS AND GYNAECOLOGY: The Fundamental Right To Practice and be Trained According to Conscience: An International Meeting of Catholic Obstetricians and Gynaecologist

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1456
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    And when viability is reached?
    AFAIK, at week 24 the survival rate is about 50-70%.

    to put it into context about 91% of abortions in the UK happen before 13 weeks.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1457
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    SW wrote: »
    Letter sent out by the organiser of the Dublin Declaration event.
    Who was the organizer?

    I thought it was the Committee for Excellence in Maternal Healthcare; the website says it is composed of "physicians and other practitioners". I assume that's why the Royal College of Physicians awarded it 6 CME points.

    Can you please explain what you mean when you accuse the medical experts of "aligning" with conservative christian groups, which implies that they are basing their clinical judgments on religion.

    Because that seems like a serious accusation to make and undermines the reputation of these impartially-accredited experts.


  • #1458
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    AFAIK, at week 24 the survival rate is about 50-70%.

    to put it into context about 91% of abortions in the UK happen before 13 weeks.

    So, when viability is reached?

    I'm not going to ask again after this time. Your failure to reply is plain for all to see.

    I've got some serious golf to watch which is far more important than chasing after a straight answer from your good self.


  • #1459
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So, when viability is reached?

    I'm not going to ask again after this time. Your failure to reply is plain for all to see.

    I've got some serious golf to watch which is far more important than chasing after a straight answer from your good self.

    Golf is more important than the unborn?
    Any chance of an answer on your views on abortion prior to 12 weeks?


  • #1460
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    So, when viability is reached?

    I'm not going to ask again after this time. Your failure to reply is plain for all to see.

    I've got some serious golf to watch which is far more important than chasing after a straight answer from your good self.
    :confused:

    Week 24, like I stated in the post you quoted.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1461
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Who was the organizer?

    I thought it was the Committee for Excellence in Maternal Healthcare; the website says it is composed of "physicians and other practitioners". I assume that's why the Royal College of Physicians awarded it 6 CME points.

    Can you please explain what you mean when you accuse the medical experts of "aligning" with conservative christian groups, which implies that they are basing their clinical judgments on religion.

    Because that seems like a serious accusation to make and undermines the reputation of these impartially-accredited experts.
    Eoghan de Faoite is closely aligned with youth defence. And Dr. Rhona Mahony, who is a doctor practicing obstetrics, unlike most of the Dublin declaration signatories, dismissed it at Oireachtas hearings. Most of those who signed it aren't even medical professionals.


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  • #1462
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Who was the organizer?

    I thought it was the Committee for Excellence in Maternal Healthcare; the website says it is composed of "physicians and other practitioners". I assume that's why the Royal College of Physicians awarded it 6 CME points.

    Can you please explain what you mean when you accuse the medical experts of "aligning" with conservative christian groups, which implies that they are basing their clinical judgments on religion.

    Because that seems like a serious accusation to make and undermines the reputation of these impartially-accredited experts.

    Prof O'Dwyer was one of them, and mentioned in the post you quoted (and included a link to an article on how to be Catholic and be doctor). Eoghan de Faoite, who as lazygal mentioned, is associated with Youth Defense.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1463
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    SW wrote: »
    Prof O'Dwyer was one of them, and mentioned in the post you quoted
    Professor O'Dyer is an internationally recognized expert; i find it slightly disturbing that you seem to be insisting that his personal faith would cloud his clinical judgment.

    What basis do you have for your claim?


  • #1464
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,115 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Professor O'Dyer is an internationally recognized expert; i find it slightly disturbing that you seem to be insisting that his personal faith would cloud his clinical judgment.

    What basis do you have for your claim?

    May I ask why you deleted reference to the link that has informed my opinion of Prof O'Dwyer being pro-life?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1465
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    SW wrote: »
    Worth noting that all the doctors, with the exception of Dr King, are signatories of the Dublin Declaration and firmly in the pro-life camp.

    Although it's not the first time he has written to object to pro-choice comments (with much of the same group of doctors

    So consider me somewhat skeptical of their claims since there aren't both pro-life and pro-choice (to avoid bias from one side or the other) doctors signing the letter.


    And this means??? they are less qualified than pro-choice doctors..??? Or that their objective medical opinion carries less weight than other doctors?


    Being pro-"life" is kind of what doctors are


  • #1466
    conorh91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    SW wrote: »
    May I ask why you deleted reference to the link that has informed my opinion of Prof O'Dwyer being pro-life?
    I don't wish to repeat spurious and personal accusations about an expert's clinical judgment.

    Do you have a reason to believe that Prof O'Dywer's clinical judgment is compromised by his religion?


  • #1467
    am946745
    Closed Accounts Posts: 676 ✭✭✭am946745


    Godge wrote: »
    Nobody from Portlaoise or Galway hospital to talk about how great pregnancy and maternal care are in Ireland. Wonder why?

    And what has that got to do with the 8th Amendment? We have bad services all over the country. People who die on waiting lists trying to get to see a consultant.

    The problem is not the 8th amendment... its lack of investment. Talk to any midwife, underfunding puts patients at risk.


  • #1468
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    SW wrote: »
    :confused:

    Week 24, like I stated in the post you quoted.

    Deliberately obtuse. Fine.

    I've moved on. Your inability to converse directly says all we need to know.


  • #1469
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    Golf is more important than the unborn?
    Any chance of an answer on your views on abortion prior to 12 weeks?

    Abhorrant.


  • #1470
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Black Menorca wrote: »
    Abhorrant.

    So why the focus on late term abortion?


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  • #1471
    Black Menorca
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Black Menorca


    lazygal wrote: »
    So why the focus on late term abortion?

    Was it inconvenient for you?

    Off to the US Open. TTFN. :)


This discussion has been closed.
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