The Irish language is failing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-06-2015 11:07PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Don't get me wrong there is plenty money wasted in trying to revitalise the language instead of putting it elsewhere but my problem was his initial comment. I would prefer to read documentation through Irish, it's my first language, yet by doing this makesme a parasite? It's this narrow minded view that angers me. Hate the language all you want but don't take the hate out on people that actually live their daily lives through Irish. They are only doing what is natural to them.

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish . I see Irish documentation being abolished in the future but for the time being I think it's very necessary .

Here's this "hate" again - where have I said I hated the langauge? Or anyone or anything connected with it?

You're not the parasite, the person who takes the job of translation and takes the money is the parasite.

How many people would actually require this?

I can understand the need for a specific document being translated into Irish, but evey single one of them...? Is there some reason why we can't just hire a professional translator on a freelance basis as and when needed?

Dan_Solo · 16-06-2015 11:09PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

That's perfectly fine if you don't believe me. It's actually a well know thing in Connemara and the islands can't speak for the rest of the Gaeltacht areas as I havnet witnessed it. I've witnessed it in the places mentioned. Have you been in that part of the country to experience it yourself? Or do you just choose not to believe it out of ignorance ?

Interpreters could prove just as expensive also.

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

Iwasfrozen · 16-06-2015 11:19PM

boardise wrote: »

BTW -what's the Gaelic for 'parasite' ?

According to my dictionary the animal is seadán. But súmairí (leeches) is a better translation when talking about people.

Edit: Just so the non existent little old ladys who only speak Irish in the West can understand:

"Níl iontu ach súmairí ag maireachtáil ar allas na hÉireannaigh."

DyldeBrill · 16-06-2015 11:20PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Here's this "hate" again - where have I said I hated the langauge? Or anyone or anything connected with it?

You're not the parasite, the person who takes the job of translation and takes the money is the parasite.

How many people would actually require this?

I can understand the need for a specific document being translated into Irish, but evey single one of them...? Is there some reason why we can't just hire a professional translator on a freelance basis as and when needed?

Never said you yourself hated the language but can understand how you could get this confused with the way I worded my comment. People will hate against the language as they are perfectly entitled to do so.the hate in which I was referring to was the parasite comment. You can't lable anyone a parasite for doing their job for the people that need to avail of the service.

I have no solid number for you of how many people need this all I know is that it is needed in places.It may be a small minority, but it is truly beneficial to them. there will need to be some compromise however in looking at doing this at a cheaper rate. This is yet to be seen but something needs to be put into place.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-06-2015 11:24PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I have no solid number for you of how many people need this all I know is that it is needed in places.It may be a small minority, but it is truly beneficial to them. there will need to be some compromise however in looking at doing this at a cheaper rate. This is yet to be seen but something needs to be put into place.

Doesn't really answer my question as to the need for every document as against the required documents as and when needed.

Also, and this is not me trying to be respectful, but if someone has managed to grow up in a predoinatly English speaking country, are they going to be able to digest the jargon of discriptive and detailed legal acts? I mean, the English versions are pretty heavy going at the best of times and I'm just finding it difficult to beleive that there are enough people who would have no problem with the Irish version but don't speak any English to have every single act translated.

DyldeBrill · 16-06-2015 11:25PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

Outline my pig ignorance if you will. Its been a recent topic in the last few years on radio na gaeltachta yet you just choose not to believe it. Fair enough.thats your choice.

As for the rest of your comment, ,maybe you could expand what your trying to say so I can answer you properly.

boardise · 16-06-2015 11:34PM

If there are any such poor unfortunates around whose English is weaker than their Gaelic they must be quite elderly ,almost certainly retired and quite unlikely to be engaging directly with formal official matters that require explanatory documentation. In any event the obvious solution for such people would be to contact relatives ,neighbours or friends or ,failing all of these, a suitable branch of social support services who could help them get their business done.
I would submit that this particular consideration does not justify the costly production of great tonnages of documents that are concocted from dictionaries ,are difficult if not impossible to read and where the language in them is far removed from that of any native speaker.

DyldeBrill · 16-06-2015 11:37PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Doesn't really answer my question as to the need for every document as against the required documents as and when needed.

Also, and this is not me trying to be respectful, but if someone has managed to grow up in a predoinatly English speaking country, are they going to be able to digest the jargon of discriptive and detailed legal acts? I mean, the English versions are pretty heavy going at the best of times and I'm just finding it difficult to beleive that there are enough people who would have no problem with the Irish version but don't speak any English to have every single act translated.

To answer your question yes not all documents are needed, how they could determine which ones to translate is a different story. In terms of legal documentation I sure the majority have sufficient English but not everyone. its a case of finding a solution for the people that don't

DyldeBrill · 16-06-2015 11:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

According to my dictionary the animal is seadán. But súmairí (leeches) is a better translation when talking about people.

Edit: Just so the non existent little old ladys who only speak Irish in the West can understand:

"Níl iontu ach súmairí ag maireachtáil ar allas na hÉireannaigh."

Irish was spot on.

Pretty disheartening to see that you couldn't care less for the elderly people and quite sad really. Put yourself in their position. Might be all a laugh and a joke for you but it would be certainly not the cAse if all documentation was abolished.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-06-2015 11:46PM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

To answer your question yes not all documents are needed, how they could determine which ones to translate is a different story. In terms of legal documentation I sure the majority have sufficient English but not everyone. its a case of finding a solution for the people that don't

Solutions have been found - less than ten posts ago - they're just not implemented.

Iwasfrozen · 17-06-2015 12:01AM

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Irish was spot on.

Pretty disheartening to see that you couldn't care less for the elderly people and quite sad really. Put yourself in their position. Might be all a laugh and a joke for you but it would be certainly not the cAse if all documentation was abolished.

How many mono-lingual Irish speakers are there in Ireland? As has been stated any who do exist would very likely be retired and unlikely to be dealing with the state in any manner which required complicated documentation.

Deranged96 · 17-06-2015 12:08AM

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

Dan_Solo · 17-06-2015 12:14AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

Pointless, utterly irrelevant twaddle. Finland has a fully functioning, ubiquitously used native languages: Finnish and Swedish. What bizarre point do you imagine you have finding somebody somewhere on earth who can't speak a foreign language? Neither can somebody who only speaks Irish and English!

Deranged96 · 17-06-2015 12:17AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pointless, utterly irrelevant twaddle. Finland has a fully functioning, ubiquitously used native languages: Finnish and Swedish.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Don't get me wrong there is plenty money wasted in trying to revitalise the language instead of putting it elsewhere but my problem was his initial comment. I would prefer to read documentation through Irish, it's my first language, yet by doing this makesme a parasite? It's this narrow minded view that angers me. Hate the language all you want but don't take the hate out on people that actually live their daily lives through Irish. They are only doing what is natural to them.

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish . I see Irish documentation being abolished in the future but for the time being I think it's very necessary .

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I simply don't believe this. It'd still be cheaper to translate document to order, hell give people an interpreter for the day on the state's tab, than the current money torching method.

It wasn't irrelevant when you were arguing that no such people with weak English and fluent Irish exist?

Dan_Solo · 17-06-2015 12:22AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

It wasn't irrelevant when you were arguing that no such people with weak English and fluent Irish exist?

You appear entirely bewildered yet again. English is not a national language in Finland. Why in the name of Christ are you trying to make a point about somebody there not speaking it? The analogy would be finding somebody in Ireland who can't speak Chinese.

Deranged96 · 17-06-2015 12:30AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You appear entirely bewildered yet again. English is not a national language in Finland. Why in the name of Christ are you trying to make a point about somebody there not speaking it? The analogy would be finding somebody in Ireland who can't speak Chinese.

Who in the name of Jesus is on about Finland?

You claimed that you did not believe that there are parts of Ireland where there are people with inadequate English.

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

You called it irrelevant.

That's it. I'm not entertaining you about Finland, I just wanted to post that clip.

You seem to have two approaches to discussion:
The "That doesn't count" approach and the twisty twisty words approach.

Can you not just say "Oh maybe I was wrong, maybe there are people who can benefit from Irish translators" or else "That man and people like him are all gone". The topic at hand was the need or lack thereof for translators, not the Finnish approach to language

johnny osbourne · 17-06-2015 12:33AM

ta se ag cur báiste

Iwasfrozen · 17-06-2015 12:40AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Who in the name of Jesus is on about Finland?

You claimed that you did not believe that there are parts of Ireland where there are people with inadequate English.

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

You called it irrelevant.

That's it. I'm not entertaining you about Finland, I just wanted to post that clip.

You seem to have two approaches to discussion:
The "That doesn't count" approach and the twisty twisty words approach.

Can you not just say "Oh maybe I was wrong, maybe there are people who can benefit from Irish translators" or else "That man and people like him are all gone". The topic at hand was the need or lack thereof for translators, not the Finnish approach to language

I highly doubt that man is still alive. Let alone reading state documents.

What is your argument here? How many mono lingual Irish speakers are alive and how many read state documents? It's a total non issue.

Deranged96 · 17-06-2015 12:44AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I highly doubt that man is still alive. Let alone reading state documents.

What is your argument here? How many mono lingual Irish speakers are alive and how many read state documents? It's a total non issue.

I don't believe there are any monolingual Irish speakers alive today. I didn't have an argument. It was just a clip I was aware of pertaining to the topic. Relevant background, if you will.

Sweet sufferin' Jesus.

Iwasfrozen · 17-06-2015 12:55AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

I don't believe there are any monolingual Irish speakers alive today. I didn't have an argument. It was just a clip I was aware of pertaining to the topic. Relevant background, if you will.

Sweet sufferin' Jesus.

Great then there's no problem.

recipio · 17-06-2015 01:31AM

The whole area of Irish compulsion should have been swept away when DeV died in 1975. For some reason there is an entrenched mentality in the mandarins of the Irish administration that knows what is good for us. Metal detecting is banned here for instance but is a thriving hobby in the UK. Ownership of airguns by responsible adults is virtually banned but again a thriving hobby with clubs and shops in the whole of the EU - except here. I'm off topic a little but these are metaphors for a rigid attitude to State control of our lives.

764dak · 17-06-2015 02:51AM

Irish should be preserved.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-06-2015 03:53AM

764dak wrote: »

Irish should be preserved.

It is

17-06-2015 06:46AM

764dak wrote: »

Irish should be preserved.

No, it should be spoken by those who want to use it to communicate with others who want to also use it, but those speakers should be able to do so without feeling self conscious about it.

Use it or lose it.

The Corinthian · 17-06-2015 06:47AM

Deranged96 wrote: »

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

Presently we have evidence of a single Irish monoglot in existence thirty years ago.

Unless one were to be on magic mushrooms, no one can claim that even the mere existence of such people to be anything other than an incredibly rare anomaly. Yet, for presumably one person it is argued that it makes sense to fund an entire national translation service for all official documentation for just them.

Ahh... the aul gravy train just keeps on rolling...

dr.fuzzenstein · 17-06-2015 09:12AM

FYP and just to give everyone a small break:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqYtG9BNhfM

The Dark Side · 17-06-2015 09:19AM

recipio wrote: »

. For some reason there is an entrenched mentality in the mandarins of the Irish administration that knows what is good for us.

It would be a good idea if we stopped electing school teachers to the Dail as well.

20% of the current make up are teachers.

The Dail before was 25%.

Crazy the over-representation of one cosseted sector of society with their entrenched views on the importance of shovelling Irish down the throats of school kids.

boardise · 17-06-2015 12:05PM

All together now...

Umam; Umat; Uime; Uimpi; Umainn ; Umaibh; Umpu.

Faram; Farat; Fairis; Fairsti; Farainn; Faraibh; Farstu.

Grayson · 17-06-2015 12:15PM

Deranged96 wrote: »

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

I had a friend from Kildare who's sad moved there in the late 70's early80's. When he moved he spoke no English. He'd grown up in the gaelteacht.

That's 30-40 years ago. He writes and speaks English now.

The world has moved along a lot since then. I very much doubt that thee's anyone left who speaks only Irish. If there is, they should sue the state because they were really let down by the educational system.

boardise · 17-06-2015 12:31PM

Would that more attention was given to the fact that 20-25% of Irish people are functionally illiterate in English.

The Irish language is failing.

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