DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 11:26AM

Phoebas wrote: »

I used to take gels on each long run (>10 miles), but I've pretty much stopped for now. I couldn't really tell if they were helping or not, but I was getting a physiological boost if nothing else.

The approach I'm planning to take is to take one or two on the first of the very long runs (the first 15, 17, 19 and 20 milers) and do without in the step-back weeks.

I plan to take them on marathon day, but I haven't given any thought yet to how many or how often. I suppose I should use one of the very long lsrs to experiment with taking 3 or 4.

Exactly

now is the time to start marathon training isn't just about the running....

hillsiderunner wrote: »

If you would collect up all those "poxy black ones" over the weeks ahead and put them aside, I could make a pick-up in mid-July perhaps ?

(btw, I also use the jelly babies for mid-run boost instead of gels, they are pretty similar I think. Though in my case, I am only taking something when the run is more than 12miles, otherwise I don't bother)

Heehee

adrian522 · 11-06-2015 11:27AM

There seems to be a little bit of misinformation going on about gels and what they can and cant do for you.

This is a good article that describes the basics.

http://running.competitor.com/2014/07/nutrition/everything-you-need-to-know-about-energy-gels_44642

Gels help to "Top Up" your Glycogen level once it starts to run low. As long as your pre race nutrition is good you should have about 2 hours worth of running before you start to run out.

For that reason it would seem that there is little enough benefit to using gels in a race of less than 2 hours. There may be a psychological benefit from the taste of the sugar in your mouth but as far as the carbs reaching your muscles there is probably no benefit in a 10K. for a half marathon you will probably get away without using them also, if you wanted to take them, 1 gel is probably all you need.

The other reason to take gels during a race of course is to see how you react to the different types and brands of gels, and to ensure you can take them at race pace.

As mentioned above it is a very good idea to do some of your long runs without any gels to help your body learn to use fat as a fuel source when glycogen starts to run low.

Also important to experiment with different brands and different types (e.g ISO Gel/with caffeine/without caffeine, different flavors etc).

diego_b · 11-06-2015 11:41AM

hillsiderunner wrote: »

If you would collect up all those "poxy black ones" over the weeks ahead and put them aside, I could make a pick-up in mid-July perhaps ?

(btw, I also use the jelly babies for mid-run boost instead of gels, they are pretty similar I think. Though in my case, I am only taking something when the run is more than 12miles, otherwise I don't bother)

I have a little 3 year helper at home to take care of the nasty ones!!

ratracer · 11-06-2015 11:45AM

My fitness background is mainly cycling and I would often use gels on spins over 2 hours long. With regard to High 5 gels, if you read their fuelling for marathon booklet (and I would take a lot of it with a pinch of salt), they state thatr taking gels in the last 15-20 mins of an event provides no physical benefit as it doesn't have time to react in the body, so any late gels are purely psycological as opposed to physiological!!

I do like their Isogels when running though, as I find them very easy to digest on the move.

chrislad · 11-06-2015 11:47AM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Hi chrislad, I use a sliotar but a tennis ball will do too, it might not retain its shape and hardness for as long as a sliotar.
I'd agree with NE, sports massages are up there in terms of essential, along with some form of foam rolling/sliotar/tennis ball (even rolling pin but go gently :eek: ). Aim for one a month, shop around and get feedback from fellow runners. I can recommend one in the South Dublin area, very reasonable and another in the Walkinstown area. Also very reasonable and of course both are up there in terms of sports background.

I have one near me, which is about 40 a visit (though I can claim half of that back through my health cover, so yay!) - Is that a going rate?

hillsiderunner · 11-06-2015 11:49AM

diego_b wrote: »

I have a little 3 year helper at home to take care of the nasty ones!!

Pah! It was worth a try anyway ...

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 11:50AM

adrian522 wrote: »

There seems to be a little bit of misinformation going on about gels and what they can and cant do for you.

This is a good article that describes the basics.

http://running.competitor.com/2014/07/nutrition/everything-you-need-to-know-about-energy-gels_44642

Gels help to "Top Up" your Glycogen level once it starts to run low. As long as your pre race nutrition is good you should have about 2 hours worth of running before you start to run out.

For that reason it would seem that there is little enough benefit to using gels in a race of less than 2 hours. There may be a psychological benefit from the taste of the sugar in your mouth but as far as the carbs reaching your muscles there is probably no benefit in a 10K. for a half marathon you will probably get away without using them also, if you wanted to take them, 1 gel is probably all you need.

The other reason to take gels during a race of course is to see how you react to the different types and brands of gels, and to ensure you can take them at race pace.

As mentioned above it is a very good idea to do some of your long runs without any gels to help your body learn to use fat as a fuel source when glycogen starts to run low.

Also important to experiment with different brands and different types (e.g ISO Gel/with caffeine/without caffeine, different flavors etc).

+1 And not forgetting 'real foods' (are jelly babies real?!) too. As said before, now is the time to read up, decide what approach you are going to take and practice. As Clearlier also said, you don't need something on every long run either.
I love my lsr on a Sunday, I go out early and with no breakfast, just a gulp of water. If you do this, keep your expectations low; start off slow and allow your body to adjust to any increased pace when it's ready.

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 11:51AM

chrislad wrote: »

I have one near me, which is about 40 a visit (though I can claim half of that back through my health cover, so yay!) - Is that a going rate?

That sounds like a fair rate (mine is cheaper but don't claim). Some will charge €60-65 so go with €40

chrislad · 11-06-2015 12:29PM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

That sounds like a fair rate (mine is cheaper but don't claim). Some will charge €60-65 so go with €40

Cool! It's normally 50 but I get a work discount too! I'll schedule a few of those then!

Emsy 1 · 11-06-2015 02:48PM

Stupid question alert !!!!whats the numbers in columns k and m in hal's plan...?

adrian522 · 11-06-2015 02:54PM

M seems to be weeks to go to the race, not sure about the other one!

Notwork Error · 11-06-2015 03:02PM

adrian522 wrote: »

M seems to be weeks to go to the race, not sure about the other one!

K seems to correspond to the distance of the long run but with a few discrepancies.

I wouldn't worry about it, it's not important by the looks of things, looks like DG's rough work columns.

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 04:04PM

Emsy 1 wrote: »

Stupid question alert !!!!whats the numbers in columns k and m in hal's plan...?

Ignore! NE's probably right but not my rough work, maybe from last year

Ps, no such thing as a stupid question here

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 04:12PM

Emsy 1 wrote: »

I am going to do hal's plan as a previous poster said it's straightforward and will fit into work/family life the easiest. I have two questions, are all the runs at the same pace? And cld u do core work as your cross or shld we do core plus the cross training? Thanks super excited I have one more 5k next Friday hoping to get in the 23 club then I will be slowing it down ðŸ˜€

Hi Emsy 1 really sorry missed this but it may have been answered already: yes HHN1 runs are all at the same pace (comfortable and conversational). Cross and core have different purposes so yes core plus cross

Depending on how many days you cross train, as you progress through the cycle, you will find that running is prioritised and you may lose a day or two of cross. Don't worry you can have them back after DCM day

Good luck with the 5k, let us know won't you?

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 04:15PM

Chops1234 wrote: »

Question regarding the pace for the LSR. I am currently averaging about 9:30/9:40 on all of my runs. What pace should I be aiming to do the LSR at? Would "hope" do to the marathon at 10 min miles.

Hi Chops1234 sloooooow down

If your PMP (planned marathon pace) is 10 m/m your lsr and easy run should be 10:45-11:30 pace. If you're following the HH 1 plan, that's all you need to know. We can work out other paces for any other plan.

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 04:22PM

sideshowbob321 wrote: »

Made the decision to go for the DCM this year ï¿¼
I've been building up my KM's since last year to a Half in April but now bricking it a bit as I now know this is a whole different ballgame and I've trained on my own so this forum is great for me!
First silly question.... should I be looking to count my training in miles rather than KM's??
It looks like most of the plans are in miles but I was going to convert to KMs but now I'm thinking miles might be less daunting!!

What is your athletics background? Have you run before?What other sports have you taken part in and at what level?
Running since last August. Nothing before that.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
April 2015 Half 1:56
Mar 2015 10K 53m
Sep 2014 5K 28m

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
Base run 8.75km twice week and Kettlebells/Core training 1/2 times week

How many days a week can you train?
4 days but when building up for half in April I ran min 3 times a week and one day bells/core & building up long run to 18km. I know that will need to get up to 4 running days

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Complete Dream time 4:00. Realistic 4:15/4.30

What marathon programme are you following/intending to use?
Undecided maybe Higdon novice 1/2 but would appreciate some advice

Hi sideshow...does Krusty know you're here? :eek:
Welcome to the thread

Kms or miles? Up to you, whichever you are most comfortable with (although you might find the majority here speak miles

)
Well done on your improvements, I am sure you've noticed that your new 10k time is faster than twice your 5k PB?! You might be nearly ready for the boards plan and could transition into it from the HHN1 in a few weeks. Could you start to base your week's training on a 3-4 day HH template? And yes, you'll need to work up to five days running...all of you

Edit: HHN2 looks good

11-06-2015 06:12PM

plantar fasciitis

Edit;Actually it's grand. I'm not too worried and glad I've at least gotten it now and gotten a solution to it now before the big stuff really begins. All good. Be grand

nop98 · 11-06-2015 06:24PM

adrian522 wrote: »

So here it is the Novices spreadsheet for 2015, bookmark it for easy access.

...

Just put your username down, what plan you are following and how many miles you've done each day.
...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1X4ruB5STPrJP1UXONBsWM-WTXFJQreeZbHiO6XHxohc/edit#gid=1

Hey adrian522, thanks a lot for pulling this together. Are any special tricks needed to edit the spreadsheet? I am signed in with my freshly minted Google account, but the Wk1 tab does not seem to be editable...? I don't see any other names down either..

hillsiderunner · 11-06-2015 06:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

plantar fasciitis

Edit;Actually it's grand. I'm not too worried and glad I've at least gotten it now and gotten a solution to it now before the big stuff really begins. All good. Be grand

That's a pity, but best to know what's the trouble. Just do everything the physios say ...

ZV Yoda · 11-06-2015 08:15PM

nop98 wrote: »

Hey adrian522, thanks a lot for pulling this together. Are any special tricks needed to edit the spreadsheet? I am signed in with my freshly minted Google account, but the Wk1 tab does not seem to be editable...? I don't see any other names down either..

Same prob for me

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 08:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

plantar fasciitis

Edit;Actually it's grand. I'm not too worried and glad I've at least gotten it now and gotten a solution to it now before the big stuff really begins. All good. Be grand

Hi whoopsa, thanks for letting us know and no, it's not the end of the world. I know a few runners who have *managed* their PF and even run through it (I am not recommending you do though!). Any more details about outlook etc?

ZV Yoda · 11-06-2015 08:58PM

Another beginners question... I've opted for the Boards HHN1 plan. I'm also signed up for the full race series. I can see that the 10 mile & HM are factored into the plan, but not the 5 mile or 10k.

Is it OK to just replace the:
Wk1 6 mile run with with the 5 mile race
Wk4 9 mile with the 10k race?

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 09:32PM

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Another beginners question... I've opted for the Boards HHN1 plan. I'm also signed up for the full race series. I can see that the 10 mile & HM are factored into the plan, but not the 5 mile or 10k.

Is it OK to just replace the:
Wk1 6 mile run with with the 5 mile race
Wk4 9 mile with the 10k race?

Hi ZV Yoda, well done on signing up for the whole race series. Yes and yes that's absolutely fine. You'll probably find that you make up the six miles in week 1 when you include warm up and warm down but don't feel you have to make up nine miles for the 10k if you are planning a hard race effort. If you do feel like making the mileage up, warm up miles are easier than cool down miles as a general rule of thumb

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 09:34PM

nop98 wrote: »

Hey adrian522, thanks a lot for pulling this together. Are any special tricks needed to edit the spreadsheet? I am signed in with my freshly minted Google account, but the Wk1 tab does not seem to be editable...? I don't see any other names down either..

ZV Yoda wrote: »

Same prob for me

I'm going to leave this to Adrian, I suspect he's out on a long run...or possibly IKEA. Knowing him, he's running there and back

RonanP77 · 11-06-2015 10:01PM

If I'm scheduled to do a 5 mile run, does that include a warmup and cooldown or are they extra? So I'd actually end up running 7 mile?

Dubgal72 · 11-06-2015 10:10PM

RonanP77 wrote: »

If I'm scheduled to do a 5 mile run, does that include a warmup and cooldown or are they extra? So I'd actually end up running 7 mile?

Hi Ronan, what's the context, a race? If not, a five mile run is a five mile run.

But as it's 'form week'

I'll just add that everybody's run should be started gently with baby steps and use this time to *fix* your form: run tall, neck tall, jaw relaxed, elbow swing close to body, run from the hip, ankle relaxed, cadence and stride fixed etc.
I was talking to a Fit4Life member at our club session tonight. She's not long started but is making noticeable improvements every week. She told me that this week, she was digging in and focusing on the heels of the person in front of her. I suggested to her that the back of the next person might be more useful as looking down at heels brings your neck out of alignment with your body and makes you bend from the waist/hip. This allows gravity to pull down on your head and makes running efficiently much harder. Moral of the story: run tall

For example, a five mile run, you start off as above and finish as above too. Never go from 'pushing it' at the end of a run to a complete stop. Always slow down, even for a quarter of a mile, but this can be built in to the five miles. No harm walking it out for a few hundred metres after too, depending on how hard you've run. And of course stretching and foam rolling but I don't need to remind ye of that do I?!

11-06-2015 10:21PM

<snip>

See next post!!!

adrian522 · 11-06-2015 10:21PM

nop98 wrote: »

Hey adrian522, thanks a lot for pulling this together. Are any special tricks needed to edit the spreadsheet? I am signed in with my freshly minted Google account, but the Wk1 tab does not seem to be editable...? I don't see any other names down either..

Can you try it again?

I cant take any credit, its a copy and paste from last year!

menoscemo · 11-06-2015 10:22PM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

I'm going to leave this to Adrian, I suspect he's out on a long run...or possibly IKEA. Knowing him, he's running there and back

I reckon he's a bit tipsy after his beermile training. I'd be taking what he says tonight with a pinch of salt

This Fat Girl Runs · 11-06-2015 10:36PM

I'm taking anti-chafing tips! What've you got?!

DCM 2015: Mentored Novices Thread

Comments