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Running in the Real World

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  • #542
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    Monday, 8 June: Reading
    I actually dipped into the book... Faster Road Racing, by Pfitzinger and whoever. Learned loads about lactate thresholds, twitchy fibres, etc., so I can now sound very knowledgeable when debates flare up :)

    The biggest shock (again) was their recommendation on easy paces -- 17%-30% slower than HM pace... which means the faster end of my easy pace should be 6:25/km... MUST. SLOW. DOWN.

    Tuesday, 9 June: Planning
    Used my running time looking at plans, instead of actually running :p ... can I claim that as cross-training? Having consulted my resident guru, I have decided on which plan I'm going to follow to DCM (hopefully)... *drum roll*... what else but the famous Meno plan? Murph swears by it, having used it 3 times now, I think... each time a PB.

    He warned me off the P&D plans, especially the higher mileage ones for a second marathon, says he has seen too many people get injured on them. The Meno plan is higher mileage than I have done in the past, so I will probably be at the lower end of the mileage range, but sure we'll see how it goes. It will kick in right after the Dublin 5 mile, so I will keep ticking over with the Clearlier plan for a few weeks until then, I think.

    Link to the meno plan here courtesy of Murph, for anyone interested, lots of details about the approach, sessions, etc.: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/edit?pli=1#gid=906928231

    Wednesday, 10 June: 7 miles easy
    7 miles/11.3k in 1:06
    Avg pace: 9:30/mi; 5:54/km

    So, now that I got the plan sorted, I better actually get out for a run. Was considering a session, but was advised to leave it another couple of days and keep it easy today... a day per mile raced is the rule of thumb.

    Headed out the sea front into a light breeze, what a glorious day... went to the end of the bull wall and back, everyone I passed had a smile on their face, a bit of sunshine does suit us!

    My legs felt tired and creaky today... is it possible to have DOMS after a week? Tried to keep it very slow, but was still too fast for the recommended easy pace. Threw in some strides (as they say around here) in the last km... 5 x approx 100m. The last km was the fastest, approx HMP (as recommended by 'the book'). Think some foam rolling is called for, left leg is quite sore now, same old piriformis niggle I think.

    Cork HM epilogue:
    Precision timing put up their usual set of finish line videos, which are cool to watch... but they are missing a five minute segment... and in 4 hours of finishing, of course they are missing the 5 minutes where I crossed the line. Same with the 000's of photos posted... I did find one of my elbow on Patrick st. I also couldn't identify Peachy (not that I'm obsessive or anything), so I'll never know how much she beat me by :)


  • #543
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    DCM 2015? You kept that quiet! Will be good to have a bit of companionship here for the 18weeks (and nop also of course), seems not too many of the 2014 novices are signing up again.

    (PS I have the Pfitzginger and Douglas "Advanced Marathoning" book and will be going through it the week after next to judge how terrifying the 55miles plan looks. Not sure yet what I will go with)

    Hey Hilly, Murph says the clue is in the title of the book... Advanced! See post above, his recommendation is a more intermediate plan, becuase it's a bit more flexible... however, you may be way more advanced than me of course :) ... and everyone has their own preferences.

    either way, great that you and Nop are embarking on the scary journey too... !


  • #544
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    annapr wrote: »
    Hey Hilly, Murph says the clue is in the title of the book... Advanced! See post above, his recommendation is a more intermediate plan, becuase it's a bit more flexible... however, you may be way more advanced than me of course :) ... and everyone has their own preferences.

    either way, great that you and Nop are embarking on the scary journey too... !

    No, advanced I definitely am not :rolleyes:, I am on the novices thread! But haven't looked at the book yet so am still in blissful ignorance of what it entails ;) .... Most likely I'll work from an enhanced boards plan (with extra mileage) that I drew up for the spring marathon. I have my mileage up at a decent level now and don't want to be dropping that in the early weeks.


  • #545
    Bungy Girl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭Bungy Girl


    Exciting times! Not sure about DOMS after a week...maybe if the foam roller doesn't sort it out schedule a sports massage ? Get rid of any niggles so you can smash the 5 miler and start DCM training with fresh legs.

    I hope the camera caught the good side of your elbow ?


  • #546
    Ososlo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,420 ✭✭✭Ososlo


    Hey Anna
    A few recovery effort runs over the next few days (at real recovery effort :) ) on grass or trail of 30-40 mins might serve you better if you've still a bit of DOMS. Was out on the seafront yesterday myself. Fabulous out there and around St. Anne's!
    Enjoy the foam rolling!


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  • #547
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    annapr wrote: »
    ......My legs felt tired and creaky today... is it possible to have DOMS after a week? ..........

    What was Murph's response when you asked him that question? ;)


  • #548
    aquinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭aquinn


    MILES; I SEE MILES: YAY!

    Good to hear you've decided on a plan and I think it's the right choice. I already have it saved down to contemplate from last time D posted it. No further progress made on it though. Looking forward to thoughts and progress.


  • #549
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    FBOT01 wrote: »
    What was Murph's response when you asked him that question? ;)

    Lol... :rollseyes: :) it wasn't really a serious question, just looking for a reason other than age-related decrepitude for the creakiness :)


  • #550
    kit3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    annapr wrote: »
    I did find one of my elbow on Patrick st. I also couldn't identify Peachy (not that I'm obsessive or anything), so I'll never know how much she beat me by :)

    lol - I'm a bit behind in the logs & thought for a split second that 'Peachy' might be a pet name for Murph :rolleyes:


  • #551
    tang1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,121 ✭✭✭tang1


    kit3 wrote: »
    lol - I'm a bit behind in the logs & thought for a split second that 'Peachy' might be a pet name for Murph :rolleyes:

    Thats what i thought to, thinking it was in reference to his rear end!!


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  • #552
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    tang1 wrote: »
    Thats what i thought to, thinking it was in reference to his rear end!!

    Kit has some excuse as a late comer to the party but you read Anna's report, B. So how did you get to thinking about Murph's ar$e?? :eek:

    No wonder TbL has been avoiding a running date with you :D


  • #553
    FBOT01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭FBOT01


    Joking aside Anna. The Meno plan has indeed served Murph well. Best of luck with it.


  • #554
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    kit3 wrote: »
    lol - I'm a bit behind in the logs & thought for a split second that 'Peachy' might be a pet name for Murph :rolleyes:

    :eek::eek:
    tang1 wrote: »
    Thats what i thought to, thinking it was in reference to his rear end!!
    FBOT01 wrote: »
    Kit has some excuse as a late comer to the party but you read Anna's report, B. So how did you get to thinking about Murph's ar$e?? :eek:

    No wonder TbL has been avoiding a running date with you :D

    well, he did follow Murph in Bundoran for several miles... ;)

    jaysis, thought I stumbled into TBL's log here by mistake :D


  • #555
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    annapr wrote: »
    Hey Hilly, Murph says the clue is in the title of the book... Advanced! See post above, his recommendation is a more intermediate plan, becuase it's a bit more flexible... however, you may be way more advanced than me of course :) ... and everyone has their own preferences.

    either way, great that you and Nop are embarking on the scary journey too... !

    That 17-week meno plan has some very nice features in fact - I like the longer runs from the start, and the marathon-specific Wednesday sessions look great:).

    Not sure I am ready to give up Tuesday intervals and the occasional parkrun, but will think it over ...


  • #556
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    hillsiderunner wrote: »
    That 17-week meno plan has some very nice features in fact - I like the longer runs from the start, and the marathon-specific Wednesday sessions look great:).

    Not sure I am ready to give up Tuesday intervals and the occasional parkrun, but will think it over ...

    I don't think you have to, though, as far as I can see it mandates a number of sessions and long run, but other than that you make up the miles yourself... you could always switch the tues/weds or alternate...


  • #557
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    annapr wrote: »
    I don't think you have to, though, as far as I can see it mandates a number of sessions and long run, but other than that you make up the miles yourself... you could always switch the tues/weds or alternate...

    All runs apart from the long run and the Wednesday session should be easy, so it would be a matter of dropping the Wednesday session if doing intervals on a Tuesday.
    Not really a problem but I would be ditching the intervals as you get closer to the marathon and get in more MP/HMP runs as per the plan.

    Anna, I would ditch the 10 x 800m as the first session. It was originally intended as a 'yasso' session to get an approx Marathon goal time (amadeus did this with the novices way back when I was one) but when the cat is out of the bag it is kind of useless (you tend to have a goal already in your head when running them) and way too hard as a 'first session'.
    I had intended to repeat this closer to the marathon but never got around to it.

    Something like 6 x 800m at 5k pace would be plenty as a first session.


  • #558
    kit3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    How about a 'Meno plan' thread - too much work ??


  • #559
    ultraman1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,742 ✭✭✭ultraman1


    kit3 wrote: »
    How about a 'Meno plan' thread - too much work ??
    No one wud finish it....


  • #560
    kit3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    ultraman1 wrote: »
    No one wud finish it....

    You're bold :P


  • #561
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    kit3 wrote: »
    How about a 'Meno plan' thread - too much work ??

    It's a bit long but here you go Kit :)
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056797852


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  • #562
    Dubgal72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,272 ✭✭✭Dubgal72


    From what I've read, you build up to a full Yasso session over a number of weeks so you'd either have that in a pre-build up plan or would it be possible to integrate it into a marathon plan? Meno, if you integrated a build up, at what stage in the marathon cycle would you have the full 10 for the most useful indicator?


  • #563
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    Dubgal72 wrote: »
    From what I've read, you build up to a full Yasso session over a number of weeks so you'd either have that in a pre-build up plan or would it be possible to integrate it into a marathon plan? Meno, if you integrated a build up, at what stage in the marathon cycle would you have the full 10 for the most useful indicator?

    Guys in my club like davedanon, did the full 10 about 3-4 weeks out having gradually built up the 800s from 4-5 reps over about 5-6 weeks.

    To be honest I would scrap it from 'the meno plan' altogether as the sessions in my plan tend to be more tempo/MP/Progression run type sessions, not intervals. I think the Yasso's are a bit counter-productive as you tend to have a target time in mind before doing them and it can become a 'self-fulfilling prophecy' type of session rather than having any specific training purpose. Running 10 x 800m in 2:59 does not a sub 3 marathoner make.


  • #564
    hillsiderunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭hillsiderunner


    annapr wrote: »
    I don't think you have to, though, as far as I can see it mandates a number of sessions and long run, but other than that you make up the miles yourself... you could always switch the tues/weds or alternate...
    menoscemo wrote: »
    All runs apart from the long run and the Wednesday session should be easy, so it would be a matter of dropping the Wednesday session if doing intervals on a Tuesday.
    Not really a problem but I would be ditching the intervals as you get closer to the marathon and get in more MP/HMP runs as per the plan.

    Will sit down on Sunday and go through it and work out how much could sensibly be substituted intervals-wise.
    Pretty sure P&D won't be my plan because even though I haven't got round to reading the book, what I've heard suggests it is pretty prescriptive about the schedule, and I think I'd find that hard to handle.

    Hope the beer training is going well Meno!


  • #565
    ThebitterLemon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,672 ✭✭✭ThebitterLemon


    annapr wrote: »
    :eek::eek:





    well, he did follow Murph in Bundoran for several miles... ;)

    jaysis, thought I stumbled into TBL's log here by mistake :D

    Only quality training, music and life tips in my log. No arses! (Apart from when FBOT comes along) :)

    Good luck with the plan.

    Murphs arse = peachy, Jesus, more like pineapple :)

    TbL


  • #566
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    ThebitterLemon wrote: »
    Only quality training, music and life tips in my log. No arses! (Apart from when FBOT comes along) :)

    Good luck with the plan.

    Murphs arse = peachy, Jesus, more like pineapple :)

    TbL

    Thanks TBL, some serious training discussion was breaking out here until you came along to restore order :D.

    *ps, I know it's all FBOT's fault.


  • #567
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    kit3 wrote: »
    How about a 'Meno plan' thread - too much work ??

    Hey Kit, the link to the plan above includes the relevant posts explaining stuff from the thread. Not sure who was obsessive enough to put that together but it's full of great info.


  • #568
    kit3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    annapr wrote: »
    Hey Kit, the link to the plan above includes the relevant posts explaining stuff from the thread. Not sure who was obsessive enough to put that together but it's full of great info.

    Thanks Anna - will check it out - that's some thread to wade through.


  • #569
    annapr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭annapr


    menoscemo wrote: »
    All runs apart from the long run and the Wednesday session should be easy, so it would be a matter of dropping the Wednesday session if doing intervals on a Tuesday.
    Not really a problem but I would be ditching the intervals as you get closer to the marathon and get in more MP/HMP runs as per the plan.

    Anna, I would ditch the 10 x 800m as the first session. It was originally intended as a 'yasso' session to get an approx Marathon goal time (amadeus did this with the novices way back when I was one) but when the cat is out of the bag it is kind of useless (you tend to have a goal already in your head when running them) and way too hard as a 'first session'.
    I had intended to repeat this closer to the marathon but never got around to it.

    Something like 6 x 800m at 5k pace would be plenty as a first session.

    Thanks Meno, that was Murph's advice too, reckons it's too hard for a first session...


  • #570
    kit3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭kit3


    annapr wrote: »
    Thanks Meno, that was Murph's advice too, reckons it's too hard for a first session...

    Glad to hear that - had a quick glance at it this afternoon & that session was scaring me off !


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  • #571
    Murph_D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,779 ✭✭✭✭Murph_D


    annapr wrote: »
    Hey Kit, the link to the plan above includes the relevant posts explaining stuff from the thread. Not sure who was obsessive enough to put that together but it's full of great info.

    We will have to get that obsessive eejit (whoever he is) to update the document with all this new thinking, two years after the fact. :)

    So 6x800 at 5k pace. What kind of recoveries - 60 secs? 90?

    (Mind you I always enjoyed the 10x800 myself. This year was the only time it 'predicted' a faster time (3:23) than I did on the day though...)


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