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Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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Comments

  • #122
    SeanFrank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86 ✭✭SeanFrank


    I don't imagine anyone is trying to re-invent the past, this birth cert stuff is nonsense.

    The only real problem there is that traditionally, the birth cert would be the document used to confirm your sex.

    If there were a "Live Cert" that documented your general current status, the birth cert could be left as is and the same end achieved. Unfortunately, the birth cert is what is used, for better or worse.

    I don't think you can accuse people of wanting to change history to something is wasn't, and I'm sure it would be annoying to have to clarify extremely private and personal information every time you fill in a form.

    It's just an administrative document, and it's yours, so who gives a **** what's written on it?


  • #123
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    aaakev wrote: »
    if someone is transgender that does not change the fact that they had certain reproductive organs at the time of birth.

    Which isn't being changed. At the time of birth they were male. At time of birth Joe was the boys father.

    None of them are correct so why allow one change instead of the other?


  • #124
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    You were incorrectly assigned Michael the boy at birth.

    you have yet to explain why this sex/gender difference only exists when it suits you. Unless you have the most incompetent doctor in history you were certainly not assigned the wrong sex


  • #125
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    you have yet to explain why this sex/gender difference only exists when it suits you. Unless you have the most incompetent doctor in history you were certainly not assigned the wrong sex

    What? I was talking about gender. Not sex. The clue is in the term "transgender".

    I know the difference between sex and gender is confusing.


  • #126
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Exactly so why are people getting up in arms?

    For example, people have had the wrong father/parent on their birth cert. Should they not be allowed to change that but carry a separate card proving who their father is?

    But that's a factual error. The fact you are now, however many decades later, a different gender, is not


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  • #127
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    But that's a factual error. The fact you are now, however many decades later, a different gender, is not

    Yes it is. It was a factual error because the person believes they are a different gender/sex regardless of their sexual organs.


  • #128
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    seamus wrote: »
    How many services exactly are cheaper depending on your gender?

    insurance for one. Entrance to night clubs for another


  • #129
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    But that's a factual error. The fact you are now, however many decades later, a different gender, is not

    How is it not?


  • #130
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Just wondering if someone could answer this:
    Can someone explain what the benefits of self declaration are over a medical professional declaring you transgender, presumably after assessment and counselling?

    Also, do you think self declaration will affect the legitimacy (in other people's eyes) of someone's claim that they are transgender?


  • #131
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Just wondering if someone could answer this:

    I don't see it being any different from someone telling me I'm straight when I know I'm gay? Why should I need a 3rd person to tell me something?


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  • #132
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    What? I was talking about gender. Not sex. The clue is in the term "transgender".

    I know the difference between sex and gender is confusing.

    And your birth certificate notes "sex"


  • #133
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    Dodge wrote: »
    Do people actually care what is on another person's birth certificate?

    You start to notice many of the same people who are against this would be against LGBT people in general.

    The idea of the original birth cert still existing and giving people a new version so they dont have to explain they are trans every time they need a birth cert is lost of them.


  • #134
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    How is it not?

    because for the umpteenth time the birth cert notes your sex


  • #135
    aaakev
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,064 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Daith wrote: »
    Which isn't being changed. At the time of birth they were male. At time of birth Joe was the boys father.

    None of them are correct so why allow one change instead of the other?

    im not sure how else to say this so ill repeat myself.

    joe was never the boys father so putting his real fathers details on make sense.

    a person born a boy and recorded as such is a fact and is correct, no matter how that person identifies later in life


  • #136
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    aaakev wrote: »
    a person born a boy and recorded as such is a fact and is correct, no matter how that person identifies later in life

    And I think the problem is that you think your sex organs determine what gender or sex you are. For most if not all Trans ppl that isn't the case.


  • #137
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Not a NSA agent wrote: »
    You start to notice many of the same people who are against this would be against LGBT people in general.

    The idea of the original birth cert still existing and giving people a new version so they dont have to explain they are trans every time they need a birth cert is lost of them.

    I campaigned for a yes vote and have gone to great lengths to stress im all in favour of transgender rights. My issue is with the altering or reissuing of a falsified birth cert. That is it. Everything else that reflects your current identity, have at it; what i cant justify is fiddling with your birth cert to reflect a change of circumstances decades later


  • #138
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    My issue is with the altering or reissuing of a falsified birth cert. That is it.

    Except that's not happening for the millionth time

    No original document is being altered
    No reissue of the original is being changed.
    It's a new cert.


  • #139
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    And I think the problem is that you think your sex organs determine what gender or sex you are. For most if not all Trans ppl that isn't the case.

    They do indeed determine or are at least a product of your sex. Nobody is mentioning gender because gender is not recorded on the birth cert. Please address that issue, you keep ducking it


  • #140
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    What? I was talking about gender. Not sex. The clue is in the term "transgender".

    I know the difference between sex and gender is confusing.

    It's not very confusing in the animal kingdom.


  • #141
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    insurance for one. Entrance to night clubs for another
    Gender equalisation came in two years ago. Women no longer get cheaper car insurance than men.

    And cheaper nightclub entrance? :rolleyes: Yeah, I'd totally change my legal gender to save myself the cost of paying €20 into some sweaty ****ehole.


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  • #142
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Daith wrote: »
    I don't see it being any different from someone telling me I'm straight when I know I'm gay? Why should I need a 3rd person to tell me something?

    If you declare yourself as transgender, what effect does this have on hormone therapy or surgery?


  • #143
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Except that's not happening for the millionth time

    No original document is being altered
    No reissue of the original is being changed.
    It's a new cert.

    Exactly. A new birth cert. think of the ludicrousness of that. How can you have a new birth cert.


  • #144
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    If you declare yourself as transgender, what effect does this have on hormone therapy or surgery?

    For what?


  • #145
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Exactly. A new birth cert. think of the ludicrousness of that. How can you have a new birth cert.

    Plenty of people have had one to correct an in-factual error like their name, father or what sex they are.


  • #146
    Cuban Pete
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭Cuban Pete


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I campaigned for a yes vote and have gone to great lengths to stress im all in favour of transgender rights. My issue is with the altering or reissuing of a falsified birth cert. That is it. Everything else that reflects your current identity, have at it; what i cant justify is fiddling with your birth cert to reflect a change of circumstances decades later

    The argument you're being presented with is (more or less) that it's not a change in circumstance but rectifying a mistake that was made. Nobody becomes transgender, which is what your (and others') argument sounds like.


  • #147
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    seamus wrote: »
    Gender equalisation came in two years ago. Women no longer get cheaper car insurance than men.

    Didnt know that, must be different up the north, well thank christ for that, about time
    And cheaper nightclub entrance? :rolleyes: Yeah, I'd totally change my legal gender to save myself the cost of paying €20 into some sweaty ****ehole.

    AH come on man, it's pretty clear i was joking with that one. Im with you, i wouldnt set foot in a nightclub if you paid me


  • #148
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Daith wrote: »
    For what?

    Transitioning. Are you able to avail of hormone therapy/surgery without counselling if you self declare. Not trolling here. Genuine query.


  • #149
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Transitioning. Are you able to avail of hormone therapy/surgery without counselling if you self declare. Not trolling here. Genuine query.

    You need to talk to someone with more knowledge but fairly sure you can do that anyway without counselling. It's not exactly cheap to do what you're suggesting either.


  • #150
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I campaigned for a yes vote and have gone to great lengths to stress im all in favour of transgender rights. My issue is with the altering or reissuing of a falsified birth cert. That is it. Everything else that reflects your current identity, have at it; what i cant justify is fiddling with your birth cert to reflect a change of circumstances decades later

    It will still exist as is. Transgendered people will just have an updated version they can use in everyday life.

    If they were destroying the original birth cert you may have a point but they arent so it will still record you were born as one gender.


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  • #151
    Un Croissant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Un Croissant


    I have a few change of name deeds that need to be presented anytime I need to show a birth cert or change an I.d. The amount of **** I get for having deed polls is unbelievable. Smart remarks about an identity crisis and general confusion over a simple process.

    It's no one else's business, I don't have to explain, just photocopy the cúnting thing and listen to my instructions.

    That's just for a simple name change. If I had to do it for my gender.. !


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