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Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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Comments

  • #62
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    How do people who change their name get new passports and driving licenses? They sure as hell dont go back and change their birth cert!

    They have to produce other supporting documentation (deed poll, marriage cert, proof of common usage etc...).


  • #63
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    No it isn't. That argument is based on the premis that gay men are paedophiles. The argument here is that someone, anyone, could take advantage of a very lax system.

    Whats to stop any predator at all stalking womens changing rooms?


  • #64
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    SummerSummit wrote: »
    I think this is a bad decision. For instance, what would prevent a predator print off the form at home to self-declare himself as a woman, post it off and go off stalking the local women's changing rooms/toilets? When confronted, he will be able to sue for discrimination as he is now legally a woman. This process needs medical & professional supervision.

    That's an issue with how to deal with sexual predators, not transgender people.

    Can the male from your example currently sue for being barred from local men's changing room/toilets?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #65
    goldencrisp62
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭goldencrisp62


    Poorly thought out plan tbh.

    People should have to have gender reassignment surgery as a prerequisite to legally changing gender


  • #66
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    No it isn't. That argument is based on the premis that gay men are paedophiles. The argument here is that someone, anyone, could take advantage of a very lax system.

    The gay argument was on the premise that some gay men are paedophiles.

    Now someone is claiming that some people, who will identify as the opposite sex and therefore be transgender, are rapists.


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  • #67
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Whats to stop any man at all stalking womens changing rooms?

    A man can be prevented from going into a womens changing room. A person identifying as a woman being refused would be covered by discrimination laws.


  • #68
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    The gay argument was on the premise that some gay men are paedophiles.

    Now someone is claiming that some people, who will identify as the opposite sex and therefore be transgender, are rapists.

    No, the person does not have to be transgender to do it. Anyone can do it.


  • #69
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    Whats to stop any predator at all stalking womens changing rooms?
    I love the inherent sexism in the statement though. Apparently only men are predators and the only way they can achieve this is by going into women's changing rooms. No such thing as men stalking men, or women stalking men and women, no siree.


  • #70
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    No, the person does not have to be transgender to do it. Anyone can do it.

    Based on what the poster said, they have to claim to identify as the opposite sex, ie 'become' transgender.

    Either way, it's an absolutely bonkers suggestion.


  • #71
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Mod: Drop the discussion of "men will claim to be women and go into women's changing rooms" or anything like it. It's trolling. It adds nothing to the discussion. There is already a warning in the first post. You have literally no excuse for continuing to do it.


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  • #72
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    Based on what the poster said, they have to claim to identify as the opposite sex, ie 'become' transgender.

    Either way, it's an absolutely bonkers suggestion.

    Because people never lie on forms. The changing room is just an example. You're missing the point. It's too lax a system. I'd agree that a note from a psychiatrist was very difficult but why not retain the GP requirement? Lot's of people need reports from GPs for a licence. It's not exactly an undue burden. And a person should not be able to change passport or birth cert unless they are post op. It could lead to some very awkward, and even dangerous, consequences.


  • #73
    ThinkProgress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭ThinkProgress


    This leads down a very slippery slope imo.

    When you have state sponsored lying on official documents, that has a direct effect on people's moral compass.

    In asia, "ladyboys" are for all intents and purposes considered a distinct gender from males and females. And nobody seems to have much of an issue with this. It's just a logical thing to do in their minds.

    If you tell people that it's ok to lie and cover up their past on official documents, you are basically telling them it's ok to lie in their everyday lives too.

    So what is to stop someone from failing to inform someone when in a relationship?

    Obviously you would like to think everybody would have the courage and integrity to be honest in those situations. But if their own government is giving them the green light to cover up their past...?

    Someone needs to put a line in the sand with these issues. Otherwise you can't expect individuals to always know where that line is in their everyday lives!

    If there's nothing to be ashamed about being transgender, then why work so hard to cover up people's past? Why be ashamed of your past or the journey you've been on?

    Seems a bit hypocritical in some ways to me.


  • #74
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Sorry, BD :o


  • #75
    smoking_kills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 488 ✭✭smoking_kills


    So what about legal contracts. If John Doe has a mortgage, then changes to Jane Doe, legally including all paperwork(Birth-cert, drivers license and the like). John technically no longer exists. So could Jane not pay the mortgage, as the contract was not taken out in her name? If she did keep up payments, the land registry would hold Johns name, not Jane's. So what rights would she then hold over the property,. Is there any legal precedence, or has something been written into the legislation?


  • #76
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    smoking_kills wrote: »
    So what about legal contracts. If John Doe has a mortgage, then changes to Jane Doe

    Or you know if John Doe changes to James Doe what happens then. Two different people am I right?

    Everything still exists. Their original unaltered birth cert still exists. All they get is a new one that has a different gender.


  • #77
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Two Birth Certs. Not changing any birth cert. Which I've said a million times at this point.

    The only argument I can see is if the new one should be called a birth cert.

    What you're missing is this. Changing your name isn't the same as saying you were assigned the wrong gender at birth.

    But we just established the birth cert says "sex" not "gender"


  • #78
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    MrWalsh wrote: »
    They have to produce other supporting documentation (deed poll, marriage cert, proof of common usage etc...).

    Bingo. So why cant a similar system be used for all future documentation rather than issuing new, made up birth certs?


  • #79
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,034 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    This leads down a very slippery slope imo.

    When you have state sponsored lying on official documents, that has a direct effect on people's moral compass.

    In asia, "ladyboys" are for all intents and purposes considered a distinct gender from males and females. And nobody seems to have much of an issue with this. It's just a logical thing to do in their minds.

    If you tell people that it's ok to lie and cover up their past on official documents, you are basically telling them it's ok to lie in their everyday lives too.

    So what is to stop someone from failing to inform someone when in a relationship?

    Obviously you would like to think everybody would have the courage and integrity to be honest in those situations. But if their own government is giving them the green light to cover up their past...?

    Someone needs to put a line in the sand with these issues. Otherwise you can't expect individuals to always know where that line is in their everyday lives!

    If there's nothing to be ashamed about being transgender, then why work so hard to cover up people's past? Why be ashamed of your past or the journey you've been on?

    Seems a bit hypocritical in some ways to me.

    how is it 'state sponsored lying'?

    The original birth exists and notation is made with regard to what gender the person currently is. There is also a version created for public use, that has the sex altered to reflect the current status of the transgender person.

    The problem is that the birth cert is a historical record and a source of identificiation used by people.

    Maybe there needs to be distinct citizen ID system that is based from the birth certs and can be altered as needed. Then that would be used, not the birth cert, to confirm your identity. Which is along the lines of what is being done by having two birth certs, the one recorded at birth and the revised one requested by the transgender person.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #80
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    But we just established the birth cert says "sex" not "gender"

    Great as long as we've established that no original birth cert is being altered.


  • #81
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Bingo. So why cant a similar system be used for all future documentation rather than issuing new, made up birth certs?

    Changing gender is a private medical matter though isnt it? It doesnt sound very nice that a transgender person has to declare that they are transgender every time they apply for something by producing a "gender change cert" or such like.


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  • #82
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Wibbs wrote: »
    You get a new birth cert and driving licence and passport etc. That's quite a bit of reality bending of official documents.

    I have no problem with changing driving licences or passports to reflect a new reality - but birth certs?
    I have no problem with people changing gender, in fact I think it's nothing short of amazing that we live in a time where such a thing is technically possible, I have nothing but admiration for any person who would go through something like that, but........how can you go back maybe several decades and alter a historical fact? That is just ridiculous.
    New documents to reflect new realities - absolutely. New documents to manufacture a new past - that's a slippery slope I think.


  • #83
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    but........how can you go back maybe several decades and alter a historical fact? That is just ridiculous.

    No one is altering a historical fact.
    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    New documents to reflect new realities - absolutely.

    Which is what is happening.

    Their original cert will be there and their new cert will be there. Not changing or altering anything historical.


  • #84
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Daith wrote: »
    Their original cert will be there and their new cert will be there. Not changing or altering anything historical.

    So you have birth cert a which says boy. And birth cert b which says girl - That's plain stupid


  • #85
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Can someone explain what the benefits of self declaration are over a medical professional declaring you transgender, presumably after assessment and counselling?


  • #86
    Galway K9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Galway K9


    Why is a mod from transgender starting a thread on this in AH. Would this not be in the LGBT thread unless there's an agenda to it.


  • #87
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Great as long as we've established that no original birth cert is being altered.

    you just ducked the question i posed. Gender is not on your birth cert. Sex is. So if you are changing gender why do you need a new birth cert?


  • #88
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    So you have birth cert a which says boy. And birth cert b which says girl - That's plain stupid

    Not if you want to apply for something and your birth cert says man and you're applying as a woman.


  • #89
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Galway K9 wrote: »
    Why is a mod from transgender starting a thread on this in AH. Would this not be in the LGBT thread unless there's an agenda to it.

    Are they not allowed to contribute to other forums? Seems like it was big enough news that they wanted to share it on a more popular and general forum.

    But you're right, it's really part of the LGBT agenda to make you gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender…


  • #90
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Galway K9 wrote: »
    Why is a mod from transgender starting a thread on this in AH. Would this not be in the LGBT thread unless there's an agenda to it.

    Back to your box LGBTers


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  • #91
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    Galway K9 wrote: »
    Why is a mod from transgender starting a thread on this in AH. Would this not be in the LGBT thread unless there's an agenda to it.

    The Transgender Agenda :rolleyes:


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