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Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

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Comments

  • #32
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Fathers rights issue solved

    we will all become mothers:D

    Then get another form to become daddys. Great craic now.


  • #33
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,202 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Wibbs wrote: »
    If I understand it, the EU is happy with this.

    The EU would be ecstatic if we all eventually became a generic, apolitical, economically irrelevant, non-gender-specific, Esperanto-jabbering Eurotrash backpacker type called Miguel. It ain't furkan' happening. :D


  • #34
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Knasher wrote: »
    Well I asked what issue would be with letting them go back and change it if they wished. So can you be a little bit more specific about this danger you mentioned.
    Its a public historical document for pity's sake. But now we're allowed change this and rewrite that official public history? Eh… can you not see the silliness involved here? Like I say let's allow changing the date on it and the fathers/mothers name while we're about it. I mean I feel younger than my birth cert suggests so why not? Nice to get a few years back. Like clocking a car as it were.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #35
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Its a public historical document for pity's sake. But now we're allowed change this and rewrite that official public history? Eh… can you not see the silliness involved here? Like I say let's allow changing the date on it and the fathers/mothers name while we're about it. I mean I feel younger than my birth cert suggests so why not? Nice to get a few years back. Like clocking a car as it were.

    Well we aren't doing that. The original Birth Cert doesn't change. No altering of that.


  • #36
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Daith wrote: »
    We're not changing the original birth cert are we?
    I think a new one is issued with the new reality on it. Surreal. A better solution might be and one that many cultures have had is a third gender. So if you are one among that third gender change current documents to reflect that.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #37
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Daith wrote: »
    Well we aren't doing that. The original Birth Cert doesn't change. No altering of that.
    You get a new birth cert and driving licence and passport etc. That's quite a bit of reality bending of official documents.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #38
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Its a public historical document for pity's sake. But now we're allowed change this and rewrite that official public history?
    According to the story, the old one will still exist, they simply can get a new one issued. So I don't see any problem there.


  • #39
    Kev W
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I think a new one is issued with the new reality on it. Surreal. A better solution might be and one that many cultures have had is a third gender. So if you are one among that third gender change current documents to reflect that.

    Seperate but equal! Where have I heard that before?


  • #40
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I think a new one is issued with the new reality on it. Surreal.

    Yes so we aren't changing any historical document. It will still be there.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    You get a new birth cert and driving licence and passport etc. That's quite a bit of reality bending of official documents.

    It's not changing any document.


  • #41
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    Ehm, who really gives a shít about them changing their birthcert? If that's what they want, fire away, makes SFA difference to my life.


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  • #42
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    A better solution might be and one that many cultures have had is a third gender. So if you are one among that third gender change current documents to reflect that.

    Well they're not a third gender.


  • #43
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Kev W wrote: »
    Seperate but equal! Where have I heard that before?
    Eh no. We already have two "separate" genders and their equality is (mostly) written in law. I can't see why a third gender couldn't be added. It would solve quite a few issues and as I said many cultures all the way back to Mesopotamia have had such a gender idea and in most they were considered if anything more "special" than the other two. It's not a new concept.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #44
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ThinkProgress wrote: »
    I thought official documents required full honest declarations and complete transparency?

    Is that not the idea of them being official and law binding documents?

    If people want to make distinctions between "sex" and "gender", then maybe they should still have to declare both.

    (Unless we're saying it's ok for some people to lie on official documents?)

    So why not have both your biological sex AND the gender you are choosing to identify as on those documents?

    I'm all for people to live their lives as who or what they wish, but there is no reason they should be permitted to lie, withhold information or cover up their past!

    They should be fully transparent about both their past and present identities.

    Otherwise these documents are kind of being made a mockery of in some respects. :(
    What relevance does the person's past have on passports, driving licences or marriage certs? Sure, some relevant info will always be included, such as on a passport, your name at birth is noted if it differs. But the fact that your gender differs from the birth cert is somewhat irrelevant.

    As I've said on a different thread, for a number of reasons I functionally disagree with permanently altering the birth records; someone who changes their name doesn't get to have their birth cert altered.

    But there is a happy middle here I believe; allow for trans people to have an official certificate issued with their correct sex on it, but with the change noted in the official record. Thus the trans person is provided with a birth cert showing their identified sex (and name at birth, oddly), but for genealogical purposes their determined sex at birth is maintained and will become available to the public after 100 years. Likewise any descendents or family members who request a birth/death cert for a deceased person is notified that the original birth record was altered.

    Since a birth cert is very much a personal document while the person is alive and an historical document once they're dead, I see no reason why the original birth cert can't be quashed/redacted until the person's death. At that stage they will be still be identified by their actual gender, but the record will show that the record was changed.


  • #45
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Eh no. We already have two "separate" genders and their equality is (mostly) written in law. I can't see why a third gender couldn't be added. It would solve quite a few issues and as I said many cultures all the way back to Mesopotamia have had such a gender idea and in most they were considered if anything more "special" than the other two. It's not a new concept.

    Except they're not a third gender. They're a man or woman.


  • #46
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    seamus wrote: »
    But there is a happy middle here I believe; allow for trans people to have an official certificate issued with their correct sex on it, but with the change noted in the official record. Thus the trans person is provided with a birth cert showing their identified sex (and name at birth, oddly), but for genealogical purposes their determined sex at birth is maintained and will become available to the public after 100 years. Likewise any descendents or family members who request a birth/death cert for a deceased person is notified that the original birth record was altered.

    That would be the case. They get a new birth cert (and if "birth cert" is the correct name is another thing) and their existing one still exists?


  • #47
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Daith wrote: »
    Except they're not a third gender. They're a man or woman.
    I disagree on more than a few levels, but since that would stir up a hornets nest I'll leave it at that.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #48
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,035 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Daith wrote: »
    That would be the case. They get a new birth cert (and if "birth cert" is the correct name is another thing) and their existing one still exists?

    I found a pdf of the Gender Recognition Bill 2013.

    I'm presuming this is the basis for any changes regarding transgender people and birth certs.
    Section 11 ensures that only persons authorised by a document holder may access an original birth certificate once it has been amended, and further makes it illegal to make this information public or ‘‘out’’ a person's trangender status.

    Which indicate that two versions of the birth cert would exist.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #49
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    SW wrote: »
    Which indicate that two versions of the birth cert would exist.

    Yup I don't know if it's poor media reporting but their original Birth Cert will not be changed and their history as recorded by the State will be there.

    Plenty of people jumping the gun.


  • #50
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Genuine question: can a transgender woman still suffer from prostate issues? can a transgender man still suffer from ovarian/breast issues?


  • #51
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I disagree on more than a few levels, but since that would stir up a hornets nest I'll leave it at that.

    Great but you're exactly the reason why I'm glad the Trans* person gets to choose their identity and not a 3rd person.


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  • #52
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Daith wrote: »
    Which is why you're not altering your existing Birth Cert. It's still there and correct as of that time. You get a new one which you might need to apply for a new passport etc.

    So you'd now have two birth certs?

    How do people who change their name get new passports and driving licenses? They sure as hell dont go back and change their birth cert!


  • #53
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Genuine question: can a transgender woman still suffer from prostate issues? can a transgender woman still suffer from ovarian/breast issues?
    Testosterone seems to be major factor in prostate issues, so I would imagine hormone therapy in a male to female transexual would decrease that risk massively. Some therapies for treating prostate issues target testosterone and work pretty well. Ovary issues in a male to female transexual can't be an issue as they never had them in the first place. How the testes(if still present) fare in the new hormonal environment I have no idea. I'd imagine the risk of breast issues would go up somewhat? Men can get breast cancer for example, albeit very rarely. In female to male transexuals who have mastectomies then the risk would go massively down. Again if ovaries are still present I've no idea how they react.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #54
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Is there a limit on the number of times a person can declare a different gender?


  • #55
    SummerSummit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭SummerSummit


    I think this is a bad decision. For instance, what would prevent a predator print off the form at home to self-declare himself as a woman, post it off and go off stalking the local women's changing rooms/toilets? When confronted, he will be able to sue for discrimination as he is now legally a woman. This process needs medical & professional supervision.


  • #56
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    So you'd now have two birth certs?

    How do people who change their name get new passports and driving licenses? They sure as hell dont go back and change their birth cert!

    Two Birth Certs. Not changing any birth cert. Which I've said a million times at this point.

    The only argument I can see is if the new one should be called a birth cert.

    What you're missing is this. Changing your name isn't the same as saying you were assigned the wrong gender at birth.


  • #57
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SummerSummit wrote: »
    I think this is a bad decision. For instance, what would prevent a predator print off the form at home to self-declare himself as a woman, post it off and go off stalking the local women's changing rooms/toilets?
    Are you actually serious?


  • #58
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    seamus wrote: »
    Are you actually serious?

    It's scarily similar to the 'gay men could adopt boys to have sex with them' malarkey thrown about on the SSM thread. :(


  • #59
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭Daith


    seamus wrote: »
    Are you actually serious?

    Based on my experience of the marriage referendum they could be!


  • #60
    Tombi!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombi!


    Mod: SummerSummit, don't post in the thread again.


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  • #61
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Jenny Thalia wrote: »
    It's scarily similar to the 'gay men could adopt boys to have sex with them' malarkey thrown about on the SSM thread. :(

    No it isn't. That argument is based on the premis that gay men are paedophiles. The argument here is that someone, anyone, could take advantage of a very lax system.


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