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The Irish language is failing.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    And that is why we should teach bilingualism rather than monolingualism.
    I thought we did, but I'm probably misunderstanding. Most people learn a bit of French or German, nowadays, no? I do, however, think we should be learning those languages, among others, from a far younger age, start teaching them in primary schools.
    (I presume he was still relatively fluent, yes?)
    No, his native tongue was Irish, second language was English. He was like a normal Spanish or Chinese student, that sort of level of English. Still more fluent than I ever was in Irish. Hadn't stepped foot out of wherever he came from until he was 18 and going to university in Maynooth.
    How some guy having trouble with English ... the same as meaning that all Irish speakers will have trouble with English?
    Not sure what this means. I was making the point that for that guy, Irish was his native tongue. You'd be hard pressed to find many people like him in the country. Most people's native tongue is English.
    Does it not annoy you when you're talking to someone from another country and they ask if you can speak Irish? Every time I have to say "no", I get a little disappointed in myself.
    No. As above, I explain it's not the native tongue of most Irish people, it's (if anything) their second language. Like many other Irish people, I know far more of other languages than I ever did of Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Reiver


    The way people are going on here is to make Irish speakers seem like some backward natives who have the temerity to speak their language. No one gives out to any of the Indians in the Americas for not abandoning their tongues completely and operating solely through English/French/Spanish/whatever.

    In Poland now they tried to stomp out the language, the Austrians/Prussians/Russians having a three way on them and doing their best to exterminate the very idea of Poland. Alot of them here are bewildered when I tell them Irish people generally don't like the language. Makes us pretty much the same as the British.

    People who seem to dub it a waste of time and say we should learn other languages usually can't even speak another one. English speakers are always lazy. The standard of English is pretty shocking in Ireland when you have university students struggling to grasp the difference between they're, there and their.

    I think the way it's taught in schools is a joke, making it optional would do a lot of good towards removing hostility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    English is the lingua franca, but just because it is, doesn't mean we should drop Irish. Many countries learn their native tongue, English, and an additional language. If you're bilingual/multilingual, you'll find it easier to learn another language. Which is why I want my kids, if ever I have any, but in a Gaelscoil and will go to a Gaeltacht every year.

    You shouldn't put a price on national pride. There comes a time when the economics of a move simply doesn't account for the symbolism, I don't think we should put a price on learning Irish and say "well we've spent too much now, better just cut our losses".

    Look if you want to learn Irish then great, go for it, it should be an option for people but I'm not a fan of patriotism so by extention I'm not a fan of learning it just to feel patriotic. I was born, bred and raised in Ireland and I'm very happy to be Irish but learning Irish never interested me in the least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,311 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Lot of sense being talked in this thread, but we're only saying the things that should be obvious to everyone, including those who push it in the educational system. The will just doesn't seem to be there to change it in that arena, and since that's where most kids' first real contact with the language is, it's vital to create a positive impression at that level. If that hasn't been done in decades, you have to say at some point that it's probably not that it's happening out of a lack of common sense but apathy toward change.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭mickstupp


    Reiver wrote: »
    I think the way it's taught in schools is a joke, making it optional would do a lot of good towards removing hostility.
    I think most people would agree with the first part of that sentence, and quite a lot with the second. Choosing to do a thing, rather than having it imposed, usually helps my attitude, anyway.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Perhaps the Maori approach to revival could be worth emulating:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language_revival


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Un Croissant


    "University students struggling to tell the difference between there, they're and their..."

    Rolled my eyes at that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Reiver


    "University students struggling to tell the difference between there, they're and their..."

    Rolled my eyes at that.

    Met plenty of people in the humanities who aren't able to handle it. Then there is the eternal curse of "I amn't"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Will the teaching of Irish be an election issue next year?? - it being 2016 etc etc...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Therefore it, by law, is our mother tongue. English is, by and large, the de facto tongue but Irish has legal standing to be our first tongue.
    Being an official or national language does not make it the mother tongue of the people. That depends on what language their mothers spoke. Mostly, that would be English. Irish being our 'first tongue' is a ceremonial detail of no relevance to the day-to-day life of ordinary Irish people.


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  • Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Will the teaching of Irish be an election issue next year?? - it being 2016 etc etc...

    Hopefully, this state's entire relationship with the Irish language will be brought to a head as soon as possible. The hypocrisy can only be tolerated for so long by people who care. It's time to be very clear about what sort of state we want, and aspire to have: a culturally English state with an Irish veneer as currently exists, or a culturally English state with an English veneer as the Irish haters want - i.e. remove all Irish language signs, stop funding the language in any way, shape or form, and throw all state resources into funding everything which supports the real English cultural identity of the state. That would be more honest, as things currently stand. The current state's lip service to Irish, a policy of undermine-through-containment (at best) of the language and promoting an Irish identity that's based on English culture over an actual Irish culture is embarrassing.
    The haters of Irish would do the lovers of Irish a favour if they pushed for the mother of all public debates on this. It would be liberating.

    Of course, having an "Irish" state which is culturally as English as Kent (or Finchley) would lead immediately to an existential crisis for the state and the very idea of a sovereign Irish state which is simply an English state would lack legitimacy among a substantial number of educated, cultured and historically aware people in Irish society. What's the purpose of a separate Irish state if it's no different culturally to England/Britain except in being a poor man's England? What would the new state use to make itself distinctive from England/Britain? That's the key question. It's only a small step, or generation, before people say everything would be cheaper if we were part of a state with 60 million people. A breakdown in the EU project and there will be little to no obstacle for the assimilation of the Irish state back into an English state of some sort. That, too, would be more preferable to many than the provincial cultural assertions of "Irishness" such as "we pronounce the letter h differently" which amount to cultural distinction for a large swathe of people in Ireland.

    For the above practical political reasons of the state's raison d'être, I won't hold my breath on an Irish government having the integrity or moral courage to abandon its duplicitous Tadhg an dá thaobh death by a thousand cuts approach to the Irish language, an approach which has always favoured the Irish haters even if they lack the wit to understand it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    this evening in my local pub...

    they were showing the Pro 12 final with the pictures from tg4 and the english commentary from radio 1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    fryup wrote: »
    this evening in my local pub...

    they were showing the Pro 12 final with the pictures from tg4 and the english commentary from radio 1
    What pub was this?

    They don't have Sky Sports in your "local pub"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Of course, having an "Irish" state which is culturally as English as Kent (or Finchley) would lead immediately to an existential crisis for the state and the very idea of a sovereign Irish state which is simply an English state would lack legitimacy among a substantial number of educated, cultured and historically aware people in Irish society. What's the purpose of a separate Irish state if it's no different culturally to England/Britain except in being a poor man's England?

    I never really get the inferiority complex people have about the fact Ireland is predominately an English speaking country and part of the Anglosphere. I never read Americans worrying about why their country exists because it mostly speak English.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    psinno wrote: »
    I never really get the inferiority complex people have about the fact Ireland is predominately an English speaking country and part of the Anglosphere. I never read Americans worrying about why their country exists because it mostly speak English.

    Because we have our own language the American's (non native American's) didn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup



    They don't have Sky Sports in your "local pub"?

    nope


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    fryup wrote: »
    nope
    Tell us the name of the pub.

    They show rugby yet won't pay for Sky?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    its a small rural pub, i won't name it

    yes they don't have sky ...whats wrong with that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭shane7218


    Forcing students to learn it for 12 years clearly hasn't worked. It should be optional for the leaving cert


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    fryup wrote: »
    its a small rural pub, i won't name it

    yes they don't have sky ...whats wrong with that?
    OK you're from a backward $h1thole. All good, carry on.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    am, no its not backward and its not a sh!thole


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    fryup wrote: »
    am, no its not backward and its not a sh!thole
    Bogger


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,067 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    nope not bogger either

    try again


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    fryup wrote: »
    nope not bogger either

    try again
    Bogger? (not from Dublin = bogger)

    Rugger? (your local pub doesn't even show it, you're not a rugger chap)

    You are an uncouth, cabbage eating bogger


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Have we failed it, or has the language failed us?

    English has been the primary language of Ireland for more than a century now. I really don't see why there is such a strong desire to instil the Irish language into young people in schools and such. I appreciate Irish history and culture, but the whole language thing has always left me slightly confused; it seems to stem from the mentality of Pearse, who fetishized the language and viewed it as a tool to beat the English with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,634 ✭✭✭feargale


    Experience.

    Oh I don't doubt that you have had bad experiences of some people associated with Irish, teachers etc.. Paisley as a young man had a few bad experiences of Catholics, including having his holiday home near Cranfield Point burned down. It didn't mean that his reaction wasn't bigoted just as yours is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 588 ✭✭✭Deranged96


    The philistinism shown by some posters is harrowing. Douglas Hyde, our first president, wrote an essay on the "necessity of deanglicising Ireland" I suggest some of ye read it on the web.

    A beautiful language, venerated by linguistic scholars, treated as a paltry relic of no use in our modern Americanised/anglicised/modernised age.

    NO! It is so frustrating to hear the language's death knell chime in the media, when there is so much that could be done. How much does it cost to change a ****ing syllabus? To subsidise linguistic excersions to the Gaeltacht? The plight of Irish could so easily be helped. No more stultifying and constraining poetry and prose, spoken work the whole way up along. If someone wishes to explore the wealth of Irish literature- let them do it at third level.

    I'm currently in 6th year, and although my oral Irish is of a high standard my written Irish is poor due to my incompetence in spelling (as in any language for me) so I am not going to get a very high grade in my exam next week. But by God am I going to work at my spoken Irish for the rest of my life and use it at every opportunity.

    The whole affair would put you in mind of Yeats' "September 1913". Without a doubt I am going to give my first general election vote next year or late this year to whomever has the strongest policy pertaining to arts and heritage (do any candidates even care about the like?).

    Pragmatism is an ugly thing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Because we have our own language the American's (non native American's) didn't.
    Actually, according to the constitution, we have two languages: Irish and English. Most people prefer English.

    It's a great pity that many Irish enthusiasts refuse to accept this and often refer to 'The Language'.

    Perhaps English-speakers in Ireland don't want to learn Irish because they do't want to be associated with such a narrow-minded attitude?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Eramen


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    The philistism shown by some posters is harrowing. Douglas Hyde, our first president, wrote an essay on the "necessity of deanglicising Ireland" I suggest some of ye read it on the web.

    A beautiful language, venerated by linguistic scholars, treated as a paltry relic of no use in our modern Americanised/anglicised/modernised age.

    NO! It is so frustrating to hear the language's death knell chime in the media, when there is so much that could be done. How much does it cost to change a ****ing syllabus? To subsidse linguistic excersions to the Gaeltacht? The plight of Irish could so easily be helped. No more stultifying and constraining poetry and prose, spoken work the whole way up along. If someone wishes to explore the wealth of Irish literature- let them do it at third level.

    I'm currently in 6th year, and although my oral Irish is of a high standard my written Irish is poor due to my incompetence in spelling (as in any language for me) so I am not going to get a very high grade in my exam next week. But by God am I going to work at my spoken Irish for the rest of my life and use it at every opportunity.

    The whole affair would put you in mind of Yeats' "September 1913". Without a doubt I am going to give my first general election vote next year or late this year to whomever has the strongest policy pertaining to arts and heritage (do any candidates even care about the like?).

    Pragmatism is an ugly thing


    You're in 6th year yet appear more educated and reasonable than 90% of people on this forum.

    Hats off to you brother, I couldn't agree more, and I hope you go far.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    How much does it cost to change a ****ing syllabus?

    Trust me, I;ve been askign that question since before you were born.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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