Be still my beating heart

RacoonQueen · 24-05-2015 11:09PM

barryoneill50 wrote: »

For example some people with experience here are saying a certain session is madness and on another thread equally experienced people are saying it's a fairly standard session. Equal respect to all I say:)

It's all relative though Barry. A session that is suitable for one may not be suitable for another - people train at different levels etc.... That's why we have coaches rather than following generic plans.

4x1 mile at 10K pace with 90 seconds recovery, for example, is a great session for that IMO would be more beneficial to Ososlo. I'm not sure what her coaches rationale is behind the session at 5K pace..and don't know enough about her training or goals to judge.

Also, mod moment...no re-reg speculation on thread please.

barryoneill50 · 24-05-2015 11:11PM

The Officer wrote: »

I'm confused, barry, are you ososlo's coach?

No, I'm exactly what it says on the tin. What about yourself, who are you?

tunguska · 24-05-2015 11:36PM

barryoneill50 wrote: »

Sorry I I came across as having a go at you T, it wasn't my intention.

Not at all, you're grand

KielyUnusual · 24-05-2015 11:46PM

Ososlo wrote: »

Interesting...

Why on grass though M? Surely it'd be easier on coke?:pac:

Seriously though, why on grass? Is that not 10 times harder?

Not because our track is out of action. We would never do reps any longer than 800m on the track. I don't really know the reason behind it and it is a bit more difficult (only marginally when the ground is as hard as it is now) but it is certainly more forgiving than doing it on tarmac or concrete.

With regards to recovery, my take on the relatively shorter time is that you are working harder for a higher percentage of time as the reps develop. Unless you are doing a pure speed session, then you don't want to fully recover between reps. You want your first rep to be close in time to the last rep but it is a hell of a lot harder. There is some science behind this with regard to the amount of time you spend in the higher HR zones as the reps develop but my skills at digging up posts are not as well developed as yours

.

Will be interesting to see how the session goes after the 4 or 5 pages of debate about it. Sessions like these are definitely the toughest ones I would ever do but they are great for a bit of speed endurance and general toughening up

Ososlo · 25-05-2015 12:27AM

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how the session goes after the 4 or 5 pages of debate about it. Sessions like these are definitely the toughest ones I would ever do but they are great for a bit of speed endurance and general toughening up

ha ha. The nation holds its breath! Pressure much?

Naw, I'm actually SO stoked about doing this now. I love being challenged and if I can hit the paces I want to hit it'll give me so much confidence going into my next race.
Could do with a bit of toughening up too:)

TRR_the_turd · 25-05-2015 12:41AM

tunguska wrote: »

4 x 1 Mile at 5k pace with only 90 seconds recovery is too extreme. When we do mile repeats we take the length of the interval to recover. So say it's a 5:10 mile, we'd jog (very slowly)for 5 minutes between each rep. Even with the long recovery it's a killer session. But we hit each rep spot on, theres no decline throughout. But if we attempted to do the same thing with only 90 secs between each rep, we'd lose the pace and each Mile would be progressively slower.
I just think you're better off giving yourself a lot of recovery and focus on hitting the paces, that way your confidence would be sky high after and it's all about confidence. Whereas with the short recoveries you risk fading badly and actually dented your self belief.

Depends what you're training for and where you're coming from. I've found for marathon training, longer recoveries are the norm. For 5k specific sessions the recoveries should be reduced. Personally wouldn't start them at 90 seconds, but would work them down from maybe 3 mins over a number of weeks and in peak stage they'd even do down to a minute and for sub 15 minute lads maybe off 30-45 seconds. This is based from personal experience and what I would have picked up from club runners much better than me. I'd like to add the caveat, that what I've written is the consensus. Have seen very different approaches (rare) run much faster times.

TRR_the_turd · 25-05-2015 12:46AM

Or put another way

tunguska · 25-05-2015 01:19AM

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Depends what you're training for and where you're coming from. I've found for marathon training, longer recoveries are the norm. For 5k specific sessions the recoveries should be reduced. Personally wouldn't start them at 90 seconds, but would work them down from maybe 3 mins over a number of weeks and in peak stage they'd even do down to a minute and for sub 15 minute lads maybe off 30-45 seconds. This is based from personal experience and what I would have picked up from club runners much better than me. I'd like to add the caveat, that what I've written is the consensus. Have seen very different approaches (rare) run much faster times.

This approach was for 5k training. Like you though I've seen faster runners than me use long recoveries to great effect. I think the important thing is to nail the paces. If you're doing the intervals at your true 5k pace and hitting the reps at that pace (without it absolutely destroying you) then that's the goal achieved. But if you start to leak seconds then the recoveries are too short.

Pacing Mule · 25-05-2015 05:58AM

Dubgal72 wrote: »

I'm going to (respectfully) disagree. Everyone on this forum is theoretically open to comment - and challenge. Likewise, everyone on this forum deserves equal respect. By this I mean you give each and every member of this community the respect you would to anyone in *real* life. (Imagine your granny is looking over your shoulder :eek: )
How you weight someone's advice according to their experience, knowledge, speed and 'bestness' is entirely up to you....

Totally agree ! Possibly a little lost in translation / wasn't clear enough on my part. The respect I was referring to would be to the weight given to the advice itself

TRR_the_turd · 25-05-2015 07:44AM

tunguska wrote: »

This approach was for 5k training. Like you though I've seen faster runners than me use long recoveries to great effect. I think the important thing is to nail the paces. If you're doing the intervals at your true 5k pace and hitting the reps at that pace (without it absolutely destroying you) then that's the goal achieved. But if you start to leak seconds then the recoveries are too short.

I'd that the opposite approach to you. My pace would be dictated by how consistent I can keep the reps, off the back of short recoveries. Totally different approach, but I bet with two equal athletes following two completely different session approaches would run similar times after say 3 months

Dubgal72 · 25-05-2015 09:34AM

Pacing Mule wrote: »

Totally agree ! Possibly a little lost in translation / wasn't clear enough on my part. The respect I was referring to would be to the weight given to the advice itself

Shoulda known

although the weighting is a minefield :eek:
"oh yeah, that sounds good"
"oh but... That sounds good too..."

Dubgal72 · 25-05-2015 09:39AM

Ososlo wrote: »

I just find it so hard on grass though! There's no way I could hit anywhere near target paces on grass! I read about people doing sessions on grass and I just wonder how on earth they do it! Luckily I don't really get sore legs so I think I'll stay on the paths and hopefully won't regret it in old age!

Try bare feet

I was doing a session on grass, 400s I think, when I was about 15. It wasn't going too well so in frustration I tore my shoes off and flew the rest of the session. I ran all sessions and races barefoot then - except road training - for the next couple of years...summer and winter :eek:

tunguska · 25-05-2015 09:52AM

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I'd that the opposite approach to you. My pace would be dictated by how consistent I can keep the reps, off the back of short recoveries. Totally different approach, but I bet with two equal athletes following two completely different session approaches would run similar times after say 3 months

I know and I used to do the exact same thing. I was always the type who'd try to shorten recoveries as much as possible in the belief it made me fitter. A lot of us do that. But then I read a lot on the subject and talked to some people who know their stuff and decided to let go a little, not be so killer with the recoveries. Get the reps in, nail the paces and walk away not having buried yourself completely. Saving that for when it really matters, in a race. When i did this my race results improved dramatically. I just think harder is not always better, that's better left for the race your targeting.

TRR_the_turd · 25-05-2015 11:17AM

tunguska wrote: »

I know and I used to do the exact same thing. I was always the type who'd try to shorten recoveries as much as possible in the belief it made me fitter. A lot of us do that. But then I read a lot on the subject and talked to some people who know their stuff and decided to let go a little, not be so killer with the recoveries. Get the reps in, nail the paces and walk away not having buried yourself completely. Saving that for when it really matters, in a race. When i did this my race results improved dramatically. I just think harder is not always better, that's better left for the race your targeting.

I think it's important never to completely bury yourself in a session, as you say leave that for racing, which in itself is a monster session. But short recoveries don't necessarily equate to burying yourself, especially if you ease off the pace. There is actually something to be said for a mixture of sessions, some with long recoveries, some with short recoveries. Pace will obviously faster for longer recovery.

demfad · 25-05-2015 12:49PM

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Depends what you're training for and where you're coming from. I've found for marathon training, longer recoveries are the norm. For 5k specific sessions the recoveries should be reduced. Personally wouldn't start them at 90 seconds, but would work them down from maybe 3 mins over a number of weeks and in peak stage they'd even do down to a minute and for sub 15 minute lads maybe off 30-45 seconds. This is based from personal experience and what I would have picked up from club runners much better than me. I'd like to add the caveat, that what I've written is the consensus. Have seen very different approaches (rare) run much faster times.

I'd agree that the session should be evaluated in terms of where the runner is coming from and where she is going. I'd agree also that even pacing might be most important to complete the session correctly and IMO 5k pace would be best as guide only. I think (but may be wrong) that that session will be progressed by completing it faster each time. In that case even pacing would be the way to go. Hopefully, Ososlo will make very good gains from it and the other sessions. I think she will, once she makes sure she's rested for the sessions and concentrates on the recovery in the days after. i.e. easy days are truly easy. She's going great and she seems to be well rested so that all bodes well.

Firedance · 25-05-2015 02:25PM

this popped up on my FB feed, interesting given the current discussion http://m.runnersworld.com/workouts/how-much-rest-should-you-take-between-intervals?page=single Like you O I just follow instructions of the plan/coach but its interesting to read the differences between long and short interval rests.

TRR_the_turd · 25-05-2015 02:38PM

Firedance wrote: »

this popped up on my FB feed, interesting given the current discussion http://m.runnersworld.com/workouts/how-much-rest-should-you-take-between-intervals?page=single Like you O I just follow instructions of the plan/coach but its interesting to read the differences between long and short interval rests.

I was just about to post that

I think it encompasses both what tunguska and I were saying and take home message is to mix up pace and recovery at different points in your training block.

tunguska · 25-05-2015 02:51PM

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

I think it's important never to completely bury yourself in a session, as you say leave that for racing, which in itself is a monster session. But short recoveries don't necessarily equate to burying yourself, especially if you ease off the pace. There is actually something to be said for a mixture of sessions, some with long recoveries, some with short recoveries. Pace will obviously faster for longer recovery.

Yeah I do agree with what you're saying and I think we're essentially saying the same thing. I mean if I was doing mile repeats at Threshold pace then the recoveries would be only 60 secs. I just think for that particular session(mile repeats at 5k pace) the best thing to do is to take the length of the interval as recovery. But if you can nail the reps at your true 5k pace without leaking time between the miles, and it doesn't kill you, then job done.

Myles Splitz · 25-05-2015 03:11PM

Personally, general guidelines I use for rec/pace ratio:

800m: x3 length of rep
1500/1 mile: x2 length of rep
3k: equal recovery of length of rep
5k: 3/4 to full recovery of length of rep
10k: 1/2 recovery of length of rep
Half: 1/4 recovery of length of rep

In terms of the session itself I think this type of session can be fine for some athletes and provide a good stimulus in a low racing schedule. (others would tend to opt for races)

Interesting to note the transition from basing repetitions on time to distance, looking at previous sessions I would imagine there is a particular reason for this so I won't speculate on what that may be.

Main thing as has been alluded to is the recovery in the days around the session as this will have roughly the same effect as a race, four times seven minutes @ five km pace off 90's is a tough ask no matter who you are. (same effort whether you cover 1200m-2600m depending on your level)

Zatopek · 25-05-2015 08:06PM

4x1 mile of 90 second recovery is a great 5k indicator session. Did it recently the week before a race and averaged 5:07 and ended up averaging 5:05 for the race. O has a decent base built up so it shouldn't be too bad. Trust me I was dreading this session but it wasn't half as bad as I imagined, I've definitely done tougher. I had a few months of pure base work going into this session with only 3/4 track sessions.

Chivito550 · 25-05-2015 09:11PM

I don't think there's ever been as much anticipation over a training session. We better be updated this evening, rather than it being part of a once a week update.

menoscemo · 25-05-2015 09:47PM

Zatopek wrote: »

4x1 mile of 90 second recovery is a great 5k indicator session. Did it recently the week before a race and averaged 5:07 and ended up averaging 5:05 for the race. O has a decent base built up so it shouldn't be too bad. Trust me I was dreading this session but it wasn't half as bad as I imagined, I've definitely done tougher. I had a few months of pure base work going into this session with only 3/4 track sessions.

But surely 4 x 1mile off 90 seconds is a totally different session for someone who is going to take between 7-8 minutes to cover each mile? Would 90 seconds recovery be enough for someone who has just worked for almost 50% longer than you did?

I would have thought it might be more sensible to break it down into a time based rep (i.e. 4 x 5 minutes @ 5k with 90 seconds recovery) or else extend the recovery to match the duration of the miles: 4 x 1 mile @ 5k off 120-150 second recoveries to match the extra 50% of 'work'?

Edit to say; very interesting debate!!

Dub13 · 25-05-2015 10:06PM

I just was just reading a very good article on this that was posted on Facebook tonight. Here is the link for anybody interested.

http://m.runnersworld.com/workouts/how-much-rest-should-you-take-between-intervals?page=single

Notwork Error · 25-05-2015 10:27PM

menoscemo wrote: »

But surely 4 x 1mile off 90 seconds is a totally different session for someone who is going to take between 7-8 minutes to cover each mile? Would 90 seconds recovery be enough for someone who has just worked for almost 50% longer than you did?

I would have thought it might be more sensible to break it down into a time based rep (i.e. 4 x 5 minutes @ 5k with 90 seconds recovery) or else extend the recovery to match the duration of the miles: 4 x 1 mile @ 5k off 120-150 second recoveries to match the extra 50% of 'work'?

Edit to say; very interesting debate!!

I think this is a great point in general on intervals. I got an old log off a guy who used to run in the 80's and the thing was filled with some great predictor sessions for all distances from the mile to the marathon. I even think that 4x1m @5k w/90rec was in there. He was a serious athlete running 95mpw and the first thing he said to me was, don't even attempt to copy those sessions but instead adapt them to suit you on volume and recovery.

A runners recovery time between intervals and volume is dependant on how aerobically fit they are as it determines how quickly the HR will drop and recovery time should be based on that. What is a great predictor session for one person of serious fitness is overtraining to someone who isn't as fit.

I can't comment on O's workout as I don't have the knowledge or background info to be able to say whether or not it will work but it will definitely be a toughie.

Ososlo · 25-05-2015 10:30PM

menoscemo wrote: »

I would have thought it might be more sensible to break it down into a time based rep (i.e. 4 x 5 minutes @ 5k with 90 seconds recovery) or else extend the recovery to match the duration of the miles: 4 x 1 mile @ 5k off 120-150 second recoveries to match the extra 50% of 'work'?

Edit to say; very interesting debate!!

I did those types of sessions back in December. I've been slowly building up to these types of sessions I'll be doing over the summer.

Ososlo · 25-05-2015 10:53PM

Here's the kind of build up I've been doing for anyone who's interested....

Thursday 19 February
10 x 1 min @ 5k off 2 min rec
Thursday 26 February
5 x 5 mins @ 5mile effort off 3 min jog
Saturday pm 7th March
5 x 2 mins @ 5k w/3min rec
Friday 13th March
6 x 5mins @ 5mile race effort off 3 min jog rec
Monday 16 March
5 x 3mins @ 5k effort off 3 min jog
Friday 3 April
10 mins + 4 x 5 mins off 3 mins
Wednesday 8 April
5 x 4 mins off 3 mins
Wednesday 29 April
4 x 5 mins off 3 mins

Plus several 10x3mins off 30 secs rec and 3x10mins. Then there’s the oft debated 60 min Tempo @ AT and all the Lactate sessions.

I'm really not in a position to debate any of this but please feel free to debate it amongst yourselves!
Me, I just do what I'm told!

menoscemo · 25-05-2015 10:54PM

Ososlo wrote: »

I did those types of sessions back in December. I've been slowly building up to these types of sessions I'll be doing over the summer.

Yeah I know, it's just my gut feeling that these more difficult sessions would be of no additional benefit. You might well nail them but they might take more out of you than needed (see what Tunguska said: I have seen loads of club guys nail tough track sessions and not reproduce it in races).

Hopefully not. Good luck with it anyway.

Edit to say, looking at the above post (posting at the same time) you are going from 5 mins off 3 minutes to 1 mile (7;30ish?) off 90 seconds. Seems like a massive jump to me in both distance and shortened recovery. I just think these 4 x 1 mile off 90s sessions might be a classic 5k session alright but more designed for the sub 5 min milers out there.

Ron Gomall · 26-05-2015 12:21AM

Ososlo wrote: »

Here's the kind of build up I've been doing for anyone who's interested....

Thursday 19 February
10 x 1 min @ 5k off 2 min rec
Thursday 26 February
5 x 5 mins @ 5mile effort off 3 min jog
Saturday pm 7th March
5 x 2 mins @ 5k w/3min rec
Friday 13th March
6 x 5mins @ 5mile race effort off 3 min jog rec
Monday 16 March
5 x 3mins @ 5k effort off 3 min jog
Friday 3 April
10 mins + 4 x 5 mins off 3 mins
Wednesday 8 April
5 x 4 mins off 3 mins
Wednesday 29 April
4 x 5 mins off 3 mins

Plus several 10x3mins off 30 secs rec and 3x10mins. Then there’s the oft debated 60 min Tempo @ AT and all the Lactate sessions.

I'm really not in a position to debate any of this but please feel free to debate it amongst yourselves!
Me, I just do what I'm told!

Ososlo, I am new to this Forum but reading your log with interest, I bought Pete Pfitzinger's book "Faster road racing" and he has excellent training plans for all levels of runner & was a top level olympian , he now has 30 years experience and coaches athletes to olympic standard. Interestingly his rest period for these type of intervals is 50% of the interval time.
Separately - lot of great info on nutrition, cross training, drills etc (c €20, full of info)
Good luck with your session

hillsiderunner · 26-05-2015 09:03AM

No pressure Ososlo!

(bet you are wishing it was just a little race on Thursday

. Will be interesting to see how it goes though ... )

adrian522 · 26-05-2015 09:23AM

Is this session on the track? You should sell tickets, cover the cost of the track at least!

Be still my beating heart

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