Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

Woodville56 · 21-05-2015 12:59AM

ronivek wrote: »

You mean as opposed to the bad blood and at times pure hatred that the vast majority of homosexuals in this country and others have had to put up with because of their sexuality.

I dunno what world you inhabit but I've yet to hear any gay people I know ( quite a few actually, believe it or not ) speak of being hated or persecuted or harassed. Most are successful in their careers and social life, have no religious persecution complexes either and are totally accepted in their communities. Perhaps playing the victim/martyr card on this occasion works though.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2015 01:01AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Stop being silly. It's much worse to be called an idiot by an anonymous stranger on the internet, than to live a life where you're forced onto the margins of society and denied the freedoms granted to your peers over something as innocuous as your sexual preference.

I know, right? Like this one time I went gay-bashing and this gay was all like "ow, please stop" and I just felt SO OPPRESSED, you know? Like I couldn't even express my opinion.

Bannasidhe · 21-05-2015 01:02AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

I dunno what world you inhabit but I've yet to hear any gay people I know ( quite a few actually, believe it or not ) speak of being hated or persecuted or harassed. Most are successful in their careers and social life, have no religious persecution complexes either and are totally accepted in their communities. Perhaps playing the victim/martyr card on this occasion works though.

Trans: I have gay friends and they are just dandy therefore all gay people have it just dandy too and if they say they don't they are just looking for attention.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2015 01:02AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

I dunno what world you inhabit but I've yet to hear any gay people I know ( quite a few actually, believe it or not ) speak of being hated or persecuted or harassed. Most are successful in their careers and social life, have no religious persecution complexes either and are totally accepted in their communities. Perhaps playing the victim/martyr card on this occasion works though.

Yeah, I have a feeling they may not feel so comfortable talking to you about that. That's not their problem.

LordSutch · 21-05-2015 01:02AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Presumably you're suggesting a large percentage of the population wants marriage between multiple people? Or want wives kept as slaves/baby machines? Or which traditional definition of marriage were we talking about? It's hard to keep up with all of them.

You're tired, go to bed.

WoolyJumper · 21-05-2015 01:05AM

I've recently started dabbling in threads outside the same sex marriage debate. I've been tempted to reveal witty anecdotes about myself and becoming more familiar with regular posters around here. I feel I may be turning into a "boardsie" The consequences of this referendum has been more damaging than I ever anticipated. Vote no.

Woodville56 · 21-05-2015 01:08AM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Yeah, I have a feeling they may not feel so comfortable talking to you about that. That's not their problem.

Or perhaps they're not weighed down with a massive oppressive chip on their shoulder ?

Maximus Alexander · 21-05-2015 01:09AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

I dunno what world you inhabit but I've yet to hear any gay people I know ( quite a few actually, believe it or not ) speak of being hated or persecuted or harassed. Most are successful in their careers and social life, have no religious persecution complexes either and are totally accepted in their communities. Perhaps playing the victim/martyr card on this occasion works though.

You've never heard of gay people being persecuted?

O RLY?

I'll give you that example for free, because I knew the guy. You can find many more by literally just opening your eyes for a second and taking a look around you.

Disgraceful sh*te you've come out with there. You should be ashamed of yourself.

EoghanIRL · 21-05-2015 01:09AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Marriage is between a man and a woman who then have the option of creating new life . . .

Yes many married couples can't have babies for lots of reasons, and yes of course many couples create babies without being married, none of this is news! But what is news is that people may very well vote for two men to marry each other, or for two women to marry each other, even though they would be incapable of making babies (without external help), ie adoption. Therefore the word "Marriage" would not be the applicable term for such unions.

The institution of Marriage is for couples who can attempt to procreate by themselves. (Non hetrosexual couples cannot do this) hence the word 'marriage' does not currently apply.

Whats wrong with the term "Civil partnership" for gay & lesbian couples? I presume its as good as marriage? But if not, then it should be urgently amended so that to all intents and purposes Civil Partnership is marriage, but by a different name, Why? (see the 1st sentence again).

Defining marriage on the ability to produce offspring even though you acknowledge that many heterosexual couples are incapable of doing so.
Should it be called a civil partnership if an infertile heterosexual couple want to get married too?

That definition is injurious nonsense.
Wouldn't it be easier if you just said you don't want SSM rather than making up a definition to hide behind?

Woodville56 · 21-05-2015 01:11AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I can only speak about myself as a straight man, but there are plenty of things that weigh on my mind that even my closest acquaintances have no idea about. I wouldn't be so sure that just because gay people you know don't talk about being persecuted doesn't mean they don't feel that way.

I accept your point but I'm not convinced that there's as widespread hatred, persecution and intolerance of gay people as portrayed in some postings and the broader media.

Woodville56 · 21-05-2015 01:25AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You've never heard of gay people being persecuted?

O RLY?

I'll give you that example for free, because I knew the guy. You can find many more by literally just opening your eyes for a second and taking a look around you.

Disgraceful sh*te you've come out with there. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Read my post again - I've spoken about the gay people I know personally, not they broader gay community. I was speaking from my personal experience , as I accept are you, but from the opposite perspective.
So less of the lecture and insults, I've nothing to be ashamed of, your invective doesnt work here !

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2015 01:36AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

Or perhaps they're not weighed down with a massive oppressive chip on their shoulder ?

Have you asked them? If it were me, I doubt I'd talk about it even if asked.

Maximus Alexander · 21-05-2015 01:37AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

Read my post again - I've spoken about the gay people I know personally, not they broader gay community. I was speaking from my personal experience , as I accept are you, but from the opposite perspective.
So less of the lecture and insults, I've nothing to be ashamed of, your invective doesnt work here !

You weren't just speaking about the gay people you know, you were condescendingly responding to a post about the persecution that gay people in Ireland suffer in general. Crassly talking down to them by leading with "I don't know what world you inhabit but", before going on to imply that they're all just 'playing the victim'.

You can try to weasel away from thay when called up on it, but it remains there in black and white. And you should be ashamed. Indeed your attempt to distance yourself from your own comment suggests you're aware of that.

MathDebater · 21-05-2015 01:38AM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

You've never heard of gay people being persecuted?

O RLY?

I'll give you that example for free, because I knew the guy. You can find many more by literally just opening your eyes for a second and taking a look around you.

Disgraceful sh*te you've come out with there. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That attack had nothing to do with the deceaseds sexuality. Using this to further your political agenda is very fecking low.

marienbad · 21-05-2015 01:38AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

I accept your point but I'm not convinced that there's as widespread hatred, persecution and intolerance of gay people as portrayed in some postings and the broader media.

Two young girls were beaten up in Cruise's St. in Limerick less than a month ago . I mean you no insult but you really do need to get out more . Violence may be a lot less common than 10 or 20 years ago but it still happens . But the sneers ,snide comments , intimidating behaviour are a daily and nightly occurrence up and down the land .

endacl · 21-05-2015 01:41AM

MathDebater wrote: »

That attack had nothing to do with the deceaseds sexuality. Using this to further your political agenda is very fecking low.

One of the co-accused told gardai that Mr Willoughby said "will you get him for me, he's a queer from Knocklyon".

ronivek · 21-05-2015 01:42AM

MathDebater wrote: »

That attack had nothing to do with the deceaseds sexuality. Using this to further your political agenda is very fecking low.

The article quotes one of the attackers as saying "some queer from Knocklyon"; and the original poster also stated he knew the victim. As such I suspect he's in a better position than you to point out that specific case.

Maximus Alexander · 21-05-2015 01:43AM

MathDebater wrote: »

That attack had nothing to do with the deceaseds sexuality. Using this to further your political agenda is very fecking low.

It did.

MathDebater · 21-05-2015 01:53AM

Brian Mulvaney was not gay. He was invited to a party by a group of girls and that's where he crossed paths with Willoughby. Willoughby got the hump that a girl he was mad for was dancing with the now deceased and decided to attack him. He did refer to him as 'a ****** from Knocklyon' but that is a commonly used term in Dublin when a young person describes someone that they don't like.

WoolyJumper · 21-05-2015 02:10AM

Woodville56 wrote: »

I accept your point but I'm not convinced that there's as widespread hatred, persecution and intolerance of gay people as portrayed in some postings and the broader media.

I was midway through responding to your post giving you my experiences of being gay, then I gave up and deleted it. Honestly i'm tired. Physically I'm tired and emotionally drained from this referendum. I am also really sick of talking about being gay.

But briefly, I have never experienced outright hated, persecution or intolerance. However on an all most daily basis (more so since this ref) I experience subtle forms of this. Constantly having to come out to every new person you meet. Its awkward at the best of times, nerve wrecking at the worst. Constantly having to watch what you say in public or how you act around your b/f in public. Living with a genuine fear that someone might target you for being gay. Also on a daily basis i hear some kind of gay "joke", insult, as well as being stereoyped personally, or on tv or in the media. The fact that my life has been debated for weeks on every media outlet in Ireland. The fact that what I feel are my rights are up for public vote.

So sure, I was never beating up, spat at, called a "fa***t" (though I know people who have) But dealing with above is my daily existence and that can get oppressive at times. I don't want to be patronising but unless you experience that then you will never truly understand what it is like. You take certain things for granted when you are the "norm" in society. I don't think its fair to say gay people "playing the victim card" or have a chip on their shoulder. I should also mention, that is just my experience and I'm considered lucky among my gay peers.

endacl · 21-05-2015 02:16AM

MathDebater wrote: »

Brian Mulvaney was not gay. He was invited to a party by a group of girls and that's where he crossed paths with Willoughby. Willoughby got the hump that a girl he was mad for was dancing with the now deceased and decided to attack him. He did refer to him as 'a ****** from Knocklyon' but that is a commonly used term in Dublin when a young person describes someone that they don't like.

The victim's actual sexuality didn't matter. What mattered was Willoughby's perception that Mulvaney was gay. It was an unprovoked attack, justified in the mind of his killer by the perception of his sexuality. Willoughby had a history of incredibly violent attacks on gay men by that time.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2005/0311/ireland/our-son-should-be-in-a-mental-hospital-say-killers-parents-781615794.html

"Willoughby, an attention-seeking hyperactive child, was, by his mid to late teens, violently deranged. He attacked his mother and in 1998 carried out two attacks on men he thought were homosexuals. One last an eye, the other suffered 100 stitches in separate attacks."

MathDebater · 21-05-2015 02:23AM

The very reason he went for Brian Mulvaney was because the girl he was besotted with copped off with him. Willoughby is an utter nutter and is homophobic. Even his own mother said shed be happy to see him brown bread.

But this wasn't a homophobic attack. It was one which stemmed from jealousy. Using it to score political points is low.

pmasterson95 · 21-05-2015 06:23AM

MathDebater wrote: »

The very reason he went for Brian Mulvaney was because the girl he was besotted with copped off with him. Willoughby is an utter nutter and is homophobic. Even his own mother said shed be happy to see him brown bread.

But this wasn't a homophobic attack. It was one which stemmed from jealousy. Using it to score political points is low.

But that side have never minded a bit of manipulation, propaganda and "woe me" victim playing. They yes have definitely fought dirtier than the no side in their quest for justice.

LordSutch · 21-05-2015 06:46AM

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Defining marriage on the ability to produce offspring even though you acknowledge that many heterosexual couples are incapable of doing so.
Should it be called a civil partnership if an infertile heterosexual couple want to get married too?

That definition is injurious nonsense.
Wouldn't it be easier if you just said you don't want SSM rather than making up a definition to hide behind?

Its almost as if you want to ignore what I have actually posted (in good faith) I might add.
Look again at my careful choice of wording in post #6902.

SireOfSeth · 21-05-2015 07:44AM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

But that side have never minded a bit of manipulation, propaganda and "woe me" victim playing. They yes have definitely fought dirtier than the no side in their quest for justice.

Haha. You're having a laugh... aren't you?

Vivisectus · 21-05-2015 07:55AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Marriage is between a man and a woman who then have the option of creating new life . . .

Yes many married couples can't have babies for lots of reasons, and yes of course many couples create babies without being married, none of this is news! But what is news is that people may very well vote for two men to marry each other, or for two women to marry each other, even though they would be incapable of making babies (without external help), ie adoption. Therefore the word "Marriage" would not be the applicable term for such unions.

The institution of Marriage is for couples who can attempt to procreate by themselves. (Non hetrosexual couples cannot do this) hence the word 'marriage' does not currently apply.

Whats wrong with the term "Civil partnership" for gay & lesbian couples? I presume its as good as marriage? But if not, then it should be urgently amended so that to all intents and purposes Civil Partnership is marriage, but by a different name, Why? (see the 1st sentence again).

You seem to have forgotten to point out what difference it would make to anyone not looking to marry a same sex partner. Would you like another go?

Cold War Kid · 21-05-2015 07:57AM

SireOfSeth wrote: »

Haha. You're having a laugh... aren't you?

I know. Comedy gold. Sure thing, elements of the "Yes" side are e.g. comparing "no" voters to paedophiles.

If people passionately want to vote no, that's their right, but resorting to such doublethink is wholly unnecessary.

paulheu · 21-05-2015 08:01AM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

They yes have definitely fought dirtier than the no side in their quest for justice.

All the NO side has been doing is drum up generic arguments and try and spin them to be specific to same sex couples. They even resorted to getting gay men in TV adds claiming Civil partnership gives you the same rights, privileges and protection as marriage, "and you even get to say yes I do".

Cold War Kid · 21-05-2015 08:05AM

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I was midway through responding to your post giving you my experiences of being gay, then I gave up and deleted it. Honestly i'm tired. Physically I'm tired and emotionally drained from this referendum. I am also really sick of talking about being gay.

But briefly, I have never experienced outright hated, persecution or intolerance. However on an all most daily basis (more so since this ref) I experience subtle forms of this. Constantly having to come out to every new person you meet. Its awkward at the best of times, nerve wrecking at the worst. Constantly having to watch what you say in public or how you act around your b/f in public. Living with a genuine fear that someone might target you for being gay. Also on a daily basis i hear some kind of gay "joke", insult, as well as being stereoyped personally, or on tv or in the media. The fact that my life has been debated for weeks on every media outlet in Ireland. The fact that what I feel are my rights are up for public vote.

So sure, I was never beating up, spat at, called a "fa***t" (though I know people who have) But dealing with above is my daily existence and that can get oppressive at times. I don't want to be patronising but unless you experience that then you will never truly understand what it is like. You take certain things for granted when you are the "norm" in society. I don't think its fair to say gay people "playing the victim card" or have a chip on their shoulder. I should also mention, that is just my experience and I'm considered lucky among my gay peers.

+1. I wouldn't have deemed Ireland to be an horrendously homophobic society overall up to when the campaigning started (not that I thought it was absolutely paradise for gay people either) - I'm heterosexual so I couldn't see the full picture in fairness, but the consensus from gay people seemed to be that Ireland was, generally speaking, fairly ok in the last 15 years or so.
However the "Know your place" stuff towards gay people on foot of this campaign is very unsettling. You've got your well meaning "no" voters who don't hate gay people but just have a very set notion as to what marriage is, especially older generations. They aren't necessarily homophobic in fairness and I think it's better to try and reason with them rather than shout them down.

But the homophobic stuff must just be so hurtful.

secman · 21-05-2015 08:07AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Marriage is between a man and a woman who then have the option of creating new life . . .

Yes many married couples can't have babies for lots of reasons, and yes of course many couples create babies without being married, none of this is news! But what is news is that people may very well vote for two men to marry each
other, or for two women to marry each other, even though they would be incapable of making babies (without external help), ie adoption. Therefore the word "Marriage" would not be the applicable term for such unions.

The institution of Marriage is for couples who can attempt to procreate by themselves. (Non hetrosexual couples cannot do this) hence the word 'marriage' does not currently apply.

Whats wrong with the term "Civil partnership" for gay & lesbian couples? I presume its as good as marriage? But if not, then it should be urgently amended so that to all intents and purposes Civil Partnership is marriage, but by a different name, Why? (see the 1st sentence again).

And what do you seriously think will change if there is a YES result, ....marriage will be the exact same for me and I'm in my 35th of marriage...you arenin the halfpenny place when I compare your viewpoint to where I have been. I was firmly entrenched in the NO camp for most of my life and this leopard opened his mind and changed his spots. I am so much a better person now, should really try it. I look at many of the people on the NO side and often wonder how they would react should one of their current or future children be gay.... life changing. .... my sincere thanks to my wonderful daughter. ..For enlightening my life

Same Sex Marriage Referendum Mega Thread - MOD WARNING IN FIRST POST

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