ISIS vs The IRA ?

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 04:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't think that at all, I'm just demonstrating how stupid it is to use kill ratios as some way of deciding who did a good job. The simple fact of the matter is, the ira killed 723 innocent people.

Yes, wars often (always?) contain collateral damage. It's very sad. This can be avoided by not starting wars but some people either don't learn that lesson or don't care because it's not them or their children who die. Per capita is one way of determining whether a group that participated in a war attempted to avoid civilian targets or actively targeted them. There are others, Crooked Jack has done a good job of analysing the facts and providing links.

You prefer to point out the obvious fact that civilians are often killed in wars as evidence of something.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 04:43PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The building it was outside? Probably not.
The entire commercial thoroughfare? Why not? Cordon off the immediate area. Clear debris. Be done in a few hours. Belfast did it for years. These werent the city destroyers of Manchester or London. They werent even car bombs. They were relatively small devices placed in bins.

Yes, cast iron litter bins that when a bomb goes off inside behave like the casing of a hand grenade, producing loads of shrapnel and causing widespread injuries.

It is quite scary that you actually believe this stuff, even scarier that you dismiss a bomb in a shopping area so lightly.

I suppose the Omagh bomb was the same, an economic target.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 04:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes, cast iron litter bins that when a bomb goes off inside behave like the casing of a hand grenade, producing loads of shrapnel and causing widespread injuries.

It is quite scary that you actually believe this stuff, even scarier that you dismiss a bomb in a shopping area so lightly.

I suppose the Omagh bomb was the same, an economic target.

Now you're getting it, that's exactly what it was. Unless you think the RIRA intentionally committed an act that ensured that they would never, ever have anything close to the support of the PIRA. Although, given what's alleged about how they're "riddled with agents" then maybe that was the plan.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 04:45PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Yes, wars often (always?) contain collateral damage. It's very sad. This can be avoided by not starting wars but some people either don't learn that lesson or don't care because it's not them or their children who die. Per capita is one way of determining whether a group that participated in a war attempted to avoid civilian targets or actively targeted them. There are others, Crooked Jack has done a good job of analysing the facts and providing links.

You prefer to point out the obvious fact that civilians are often killed in wars as evidence of something.

Neither of you are providing facts, just desperately trying to justify callous acts of murder. It is quite scary.

Still, it keeps the legend of the good old cuddly ira going and means there will always be new recruits.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 04:47PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Now you're getting it, that's exactly what it was. Unless you think the RIRA intentionally committed an act that ensured that they would never, ever have anything close to the support of the PIRA. Although, given what's alleged about how they're "riddled with agents" then maybe that was the plan.

You really are quite deluded.

Chips Lovell · 14-05-2015 04:48PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Care to offer anything more than that or is that all you've got?

Nope. Yourself and a few others are doing a bang up job all by yourselves.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 04:54PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really are quite deluded.

So you think Omagh was a deliberate attempt to kill civilians in a town that's nearly 70% Catholic? Sounds plausible.

pmasterson95 · 14-05-2015 05:00PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

So you think Omagh was a deliberate attempt to kill civilians in a town that's nearly 70% Catholic? Sounds plausible.

What if it was young lads. You cant blame youths for nothing.....or have goalposts moved?

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 05:08PM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

What if it was young lads. You cant blame youths for nothing.....or have goalposts moved?

Can we keep that discussion over to the other thread please? You've very little interesting to say there so no need to muddy this serious debate over who'd win a scrap.

To answer your question, no, the goalposts haven't moved. In fact, if they were children that would actually go some way to explaining how they'd pull off one of the least politically successful attacks of a 30 year war.

pmasterson95 · 14-05-2015 05:10PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Can we keep that discussion over to the other thread please? You've very little interesting to say there so no need to muddy this serious debate over who'd win a scrap.

To answer your question, no, the goalposts haven't moved. In fact, if they were children that would actually go some way to explaining how they'd pull off one of the least politically successful attacks of a 30 year war.

Sorry I'm only young

Junkyard Tom · 14-05-2015 05:14PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

They were unable to fight conventional battles (both too scared to - they didn't like dying - and never got enough equipment or men).

You're clueless. The PIRA fought numerous gun battles with the BA in Belfast and Derry.

This is 1972 alone.

27 January 1972: An IRA unit which included Martin Meehan fought a 4-hour gun battle with a British Army detachment at Dungooley in south County Armagh. The British Army alone fired over 4,500 rounds while the IRA returned fire with assault rifles and an anti-tank gun. There were no casualties in the battle with the exception of a farmers pig which was caught in the crossfire. 8 IRA volunteers were arrested south of the border but were eventually acquitted.

10 February 1972: An IRA volunteer was killed in a gun-battle with the RUC in Newtownabbey, County Antrim.

14 March 1972: A two-man IRA unit armed with sub-machine guns ambushed a joint British Army/RUC patrol on Brackaville Road outside Coalisland. Over 50 shots were fired by the unit. The RUC officer who was driving the police patrol vehicle was killed

30 March 1972: A civilian was killed in the crossfire of a gun-battle between the IRA and the British Army in the Andersonstown area of Belfast.

25 April 1972: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA gun-attack on a British Army Permanent Vehicle Checkpoint on the Donegall Road in Belfast.

13 May 1972: An IRA volunteer was killed in a gun-battle with the British Army on William Street in Derry.

12 June 1972: A British soldier was shot dead by the IRA during a gun-battle in the Ardoyne area of Belfast.

13 July 1972: Four British soldiers and an IRA volunteer were killed in various gun-battles across Belfast. The British Army also killed two# armed men

14 July 1972: An IRA volunteer was shot dead in a gun battle with the British Army. Also killed in the violence were three British soldiers, an OIRA volunteer and a civilian.

26 July 1972: A British soldier was shot dead in an IRA attack on a British foot-patrol in the Unity Flats, Belfast.

20 September 1972: A British soldier was killed in a gun battle with the IRA on Springhill Avenue in Ballymurphy, Belfast.

6 October 1972: An IRA volunteer was killed during an IRA attack on a British Army base in the Lower Falls, Belfast

In rural areas the PIRA routinely attacked BA and RUC outposts up to and including totally destroying them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Derryard_checkpoint

A senior British military officer, when quizzed about the IRA attack, said:
They are murdering bastards, but they are not cowards. This team actually pressed home a ground attack right into the heart of the compound. That takes guts when there are people firing back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Cloghoge_checkpoint

The British Army's official report about this incident stated: "This was a well-planned and well-executed attack indicative of the imaginative, innovative and capable nature of South Armagh PIRA".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Conservation

The sudden counter-ambush disrupted the British operation, and the officer in charge aborted it.[4] He later stated that:
In military terms, it was one of the IRA's finest attacks in South Armagh. They picked out the COP team in the most exposed position. With hindsight, it was the one weak link in the operation and it says something for the IRA's tactical and field skills that they identified that fact before we did.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 05:17PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

So you think Omagh was a deliberate attempt to kill civilians in a town that's nearly 70% Catholic? Sounds plausible.

When did being Catholic make you safe from the IRA? It certainly didn't in Claudy.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 05:26PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When did being Catholic make you safe from the IRA? It certainly didn't in Claudy.

Have you ever tried out for dodgeball? You'd be great at it.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 05:26PM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Sorry I'm only young

Haha very good!

And no I can't multi quote, sorry!

14-05-2015 05:29PM

Why is thread still open? It no longer has anything to do with the topic?

Junkyard Tom · 14-05-2015 05:31PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

And no I can't multi quote, sorry!

Click on this little symbol on the posts you want to multi quote.

Located here
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noway12345 · 14-05-2015 05:32PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Why is thread still open? It no longer has anything to do with the topic?

This is always the way people react when they don't like the truth about the war in the North been spoken. Shut them people up. The PIRA were the good guys in an awful war. The facts are there for all to see.

14-05-2015 05:33PM

FFS, go boil your head or something.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 05:34PM

Junkyard Cat wrote: »

Click on this little symbol on the posts you want to multi quote.

Located here
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Thanks very much, but I'm on mobile view on a phone. I don't think the option is there.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 05:35PM

noway12345 wrote: »

This is always the way people react when they don't like the truth about the war in the North been spoken. Shut them people up. The PIRA were the good guys in an awful war. The facts are there for all to see.

You see, that's the problem people have. The IRA were not the 'good guys' no matter how people like to paint them.

They were an understandable product of their environment, but by no stretch of the imagination were they the good guys.

noway12345 · 14-05-2015 05:36PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

FFS, go boil your head or something.

You talkin to me? Huh?

noway12345 · 14-05-2015 05:39PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You see, that's the problem people have. The IRA were not the 'good guys' no matter how people like to paint them.

They were an understandable product of their environment, but by no stretch of the imagination were they the good guys.

No participant in the war can be seen as saintly. Dirty deeds had to be done. The PIRA had right on its side and they tried to operate cleanly for the huge majority of their actions. The same can't be said for the British forces or the loyalists. It's not the narrative many want to hear, but it's all fact.

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 05:55PM

noway12345 wrote: »

No participant in the war can be seen as saintly. Dirty deeds had to be done. The PIRA had right on its side and they tried to operate cleanly for the huge majority of their actions. The same can't be said for the British forces or the loyalists. It's not the narrative many want to hear, but it's all fact.

In what way did they right on their side?

LordSutch · 14-05-2015 06:52PM

noway12345 wrote: »

The uncomfortable fact for many is that the PIRA were actually the good guys. They can never admit to that, to do so would change their whole reality.

The PIRA were on the whole, murder hungry, trigger happy, deluded, determined & blinkered fundamentalists who bought into the misty eyed, Irish Republican pipe dream whereby the Green & Orange are united as one (under the auspices of one Republican United Ireland). The thirty year campaign did of course have the effect of poisioning Unionist hearts & minds & destroying any chance of a United island (never mind a united Ireland).

Kill as many Policemen and soldiers as you like, kill people who step out of line too, Eff the Unionists and their heritage, Eff the fact that the majority want to retain and remain in the United Kingdom, so let's plant as many bombs as we can, let's destroy as many businesses as we can, let's make the North uncontrollable & ungovernable, let's do what we want to get our way, until we are politically strong enough to drop the armalite & concentrate on the ballot box!

To say that the PIRA were the good guys is either deluded or I'll informed.

Nodin · 14-05-2015 06:57PM

LordSutch wrote: »

The PIRA (...........)or I'll informed.

Jaysus Sutch, were I to go on you for info, I'd never know there'd been a sectarian statelet up there for near on 50 years.

LDN_Irish · 14-05-2015 06:59PM

Fratton Fred just thanked that post despite saying earlier in the thread that he thinks the PIRA campaign was justified but he doesn't agree with everything they did.

You know those people who mindlessly share everything on FB Fred? You are the boards.ie equivalent.

LordSutch · 14-05-2015 07:11PM

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus Sutch, were I to go on you for info, I'd never know there'd been a sectarian statelet up there for near on 50 years.

So how do you fix a sectarian state? Shoot, bomb & maim your way to a United Ireland?

Eh, no, I don't think so.

Nodin · 14-05-2015 07:23PM

LordSutch wrote: »

So how do you fix a sectarian state? Shoot, bomb & maim your way to a United Ireland?

...........

Well they tried the old "peaceful protest" thing, if you recall. It caused the poor peaceful statelet to have them beaten off the streets. Evidently there was only one language they were going to listen to.

Santa Cruz · 14-05-2015 07:51PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This has all been gone over already in the thread. Bombs went off at all hours of the day and night for all sorts of operational reasons.
If the targets were economic it would make sense to target them during their biggest trading day and time.
The fact is nobody has produced any evidence to suggest the IRA was targeting civilians or even provided a reason as to why they would do so.
I have produced plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise

The fact iss that you are a fool that has swallowed Provo propaganda

Fratton Fred · 14-05-2015 07:57PM

LDN_Irish wrote: »

Fratton Fred just thanked that post despite saying earlier in the thread that he thinks the PIRA campaign was justified but he doesn't agree with everything they did.

You know those people who mindlessly share everything on FB Fred? You are the boards.ie equivalent.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, but what has Lord Sutch said that contradicts my view?

The IRA campaign ultimately was its own worst enemy. I know the fanboys like to claim they bombed the brits to the negotiating table, but in reality, their support was in serious decline after Enniskillen (economic target was it?) And Warrington all but killed it off.

If they had stuck to killing a few soldiers in uniform (as opposed to Aussie day trippers, unarmed raw recruits And off duty airmen and their infant children) it would have been far easier for a British government to talk to them.

But it wasn't until their support wained they realised they were never going to win.

ISIS vs The IRA ?

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