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How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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Comments

  • #8552
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    ive by and large kept out of the debate as its something that doesn't interest me at all, however i have to say the behavior of certain parts of the "yes" campaign is nothing short of disgraceful - the abuse, ridiculing and general disrespect for anybody who has an opinion siding with the "no" campaign is really evident and its happening on every form of social media. it definitely will cost some votes however ultimately the bill will pass.

    its very ironic that these people are looking for equality and all that, yet they resort to bullying, intimidation and discrimination to anybody with a different opinion to theirs.


  • #8553
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    floggg wrote: »
    Yea, nobody has a right to discriminate. Nor should they.

    Anybody arguing for a right to discriminate is outing themselves as a prick.

    A private business should be allowed to decide their own custom. Free market will decide if they made the righ choice or not.

    Curves shouldn't be forced to allow men join and if a cake shop doesn't wan't your custom they shouldn't be forced to supply it.


  • #8554
    Hyzepher
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hyzepher


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    ive by and large kept out of the debate as its something that doesn't interest me at all, however i have to say the behavior of certain parts of the "yes" campaign is nothing short of disgraceful - the abuse, ridiculing and general disrespect for anybody who has an opinion siding with the "no" campaign is really evident and its happening on every form of social media. it definitely will cost some votes however ultimately the bill will pass.

    its very ironic that these people are looking for equality and all that, yet they resort to bullying, intimidation and discrimination to anybody with a different opinion to theirs.

    any examples on this thread?


  • #8555
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,861 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    There is a big difference between a reason and an argument.

    Somebody who says: "I'm voting no because it's against my religious beliefs" is voicing their reason for voting no.

    However, somebody who says: "You should vote no because my religious beliefs say so" is offering an argument.
    I think this is absolutely crucial.

    I actually think that personal or religious beliefs, while not any kind of valid argument for other people voting no, it is a valid reason for a person's own vote.

    However, virtually everybody advocating a no vote on this thread has given some other reason which they believe constitutes an argument - children, surrogacy, parenting - whatever nonsense they think might hold water for 5 seconds.

    I suspect that most people doing so make up these arguments to mask what is their real reason - their own personal or religious beliefs, which they recognise is no kind of valid argument for another person to vote No.


  • #8556
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Even though voting no is forcing your morals on others which you previously said is wrong?

    You get your vote to express your morals, DEMOCRACY


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  • #8557
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    The church can believe whatever it likes but that doesn't give it a right to impose it's belief on the state.

    Seeking the church's opinion on marriage is as helpful as having a dentist examine your genitals.


  • #8558
    Hyzepher
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hyzepher


    gravehold wrote: »
    A private business should be allowed to decide their own custom. Free market will decide if they made the righ choice or not.

    Curves shouldn't be forced to allow men join and if a cake shop doesn't wan't your custom they shouldn't be forced to supply it.

    Do you not see that your are undermining your own argument.

    Religion shouldn't deny the wishes of others purely based on beliefs.


  • #8559
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    gravehold wrote: »
    A private business should be allowed to decide their own custom. Free market will decide if they made the righ choice or not.

    Curves shouldn't be forced to allow men join and if a cake shop doesn't wan't your custom they shouldn't be forced to supply it.

    What a happy world you want to live in. Thankfully the law is very clear. Private businesses are not allowed to discriminate.


  • #8560
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Doctor Jimbob wrote: »
    I actually agree with this one TBH.

    What about GPs?


  • #8561
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    Hyzepher wrote: »
    Do you not see that your are undermining your own argument.

    Religion shouldn't deny the wishes of others purely based on beliefs.

    They are not the whole population get a vote the on the most represents Ireland will be the winner


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  • #8562
    Not a NSA agent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 781 ✭✭✭Not a NSA agent


    gravehold wrote: »
    You get your vote to express your morals, DEMOCRACY

    If there was a vote to make being a Christian illegal and it passed it would be ok because democracy?

    You havent pointed out what part of the amendment will make marrying someone of the opposite gender illegal either.


  • #8563
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,861 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    gravehold wrote: »
    You get your vote to express your morals, DEMOCRACY
    Are you still keeping up the laughable pretence that you are a Yes voter?


  • #8564
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    What about GPs?

    Yes women only GP's should also not be forced to accept male clients, if they want to just focus on women clients they should be allowed


  • #8565
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,007 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    gravehold wrote: »
    You get your vote to express your morals, DEMOCRACY

    Now your proving your a hypocrite
    gravehold wrote: »
    Their not they can't do anything to get you to vote your way just,like you can't force your morals on them everyone will vote for what they believe is their moral choice and in the end democracy will decide.

    So only one group of people is allowed force their morals on another?

    If you don't understand what i mean maybe read this next part slowly, anyone who votes no is forcing their own morals on people who are homosexual by refusing them the legal right to marry


  • #8566
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    A business is not allowed by law to discriminate, so if you feel so slowly then don't enter business

    Interesting article by Fintan O'Toole about the gay cake controversy…
    It is in fact crazy that the McArthurs were taken to court for not agreeing to make a cake with a slogan that they find objectionable. “Support Gay Marriage” is an act of expression, and free expression is a basic democratic value. It doesn’t just mean that, within reason, you can say what you want to say but also that you cannot be forced to say what you don’t want to say. So yes, a baker has a right not to bake a cake that expresses support for gay marriage and a priest or pastor has a right not to perform a same-sex marriage ceremony. For the law to suggest otherwise is foolish and intolerant and it does the cause of equality no favours.

    There’s a big difference between outlawing discrimination on the one hand and forcing people to express support for things they don’t believe in on the other. No one should be forced against their conscience to participate in, or support, a same-sex marriage.

    But – and here’s where the argument reaches its limits – this has nothing in itself to do with religion. The McArthurs should have the right not to bake that cake, not because they’re Christians, but because they’re equal citizens in a rights-bound democracy.

    Religious belief is a terrible basis for deciding who has what rights or who can opt out of what law. Why? Because anyone can hold a sincere religious belief about anything.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-religious-conservatives-want-to-have-cake-and-eat-it-1.2199612

    Personally, I think the gay cake is a clusterfúck for all sides. All I can see it doing is re-enforcing the siege mentality and sense of martyrdom for hardline Christians and will encourage more of the hardliners to go out and vote.


  • #8567
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,007 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    ive by and large kept out of the debate as its something that doesn't interest me at all, however i have to say the behavior of certain parts of the "yes" campaign is nothing short of disgraceful - the abuse, ridiculing and general disrespect for anybody who has an opinion siding with the "no" campaign is really evident and its happening on every form of social media. it definitely will cost some votes however ultimately the bill will pass.

    its very ironic that these people are looking for equality and all that, yet they resort to bullying, intimidation and discrimination to anybody with a different opinion to theirs.

    Point out to me where anyone on the no side is discriminating people on the yes side?


  • #8568
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Now your proving your a hypocrite



    So only one group of people is allowed force their morals on another?

    If you don't understand what i mean maybe read this next part slowly, anyone who votes no is forcing their own morals on people who are homosexual by refusing them the legal right to marry

    Fortunately we a democracy while not perfect it's the best system in place, if you would prefer a dictatorship where you don't get to vote north korea might be the place for you.

    If the majority of ireland want ssm which it's seem like they do ssm will be a thing in Ireland


  • #8569
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,861 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    As an aside, I wish the main parties could have got together and come up with a small number of designs for Yes posters, endorsed by all parties.

    Each party has different designs and wording and the effect is diluted.

    One series of posters, with the logos of all parties around it, would have been more effective.


  • #8570
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Personally, I think the gay cake is a clusterfúck for all sides. All I can see it doing is re-enforcing the siege mentality and sense of martyrdom for hardline Christians and will encourage more of the hardliners to go out and vote.

    I agree that the issue is a brutal headache. I found the article from FoT to be very disappointing and not up to his usually high standards, it really boiled down to the 'message' argument but that falls apart pretty instantly under any degree of scrutiny.


  • #8571
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,992 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Even though voting no is forcing your morals on others which you previously said is wrong?

    Voting yes is forcing your morals on others too if you're to look at it like that, but that's the whole basis of democracy, the right to self determination in the electoral sphere.

    I was always taught that if you are not convinced on the premis of a referendum you should vote no. A no vote is a vote to maintain the status quo and to leave the door open for future referenda that might be better refined by future drafters. It is always more responsible to vote one way or the other than to not vote, unless of course you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on the facts.


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  • #8572
    floggg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭floggg


    gravehold wrote: »
    A private business should be allowed to decide their own custom. Free market will decide if they made the righ choice or not.

    Curves shouldn't be forced to allow men join and if a cake shop doesn't wan't your custom they shouldn't be forced to supply it.

    I'm very happy we live in a country which disagrees with you.

    Hence we cannot refuse to serve somebody on grounds of race, gender, religion etc.

    So yes, I think a cake shop being forced to bake a cake is a small price to pay to live in a society where exclusion and bigotry are not tolerated.

    You only have to look to Northern Ireland prior to Catholics gaining full civil rights to know how horrible the alternative is.


  • #8573
    CarpeDiem85
    Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭CarpeDiem85


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    ive by and large kept out of the debate as its something that doesn't interest me at all, however i have to say the behavior of certain parts of the "yes" campaign is nothing short of disgraceful - the abuse, ridiculing and general disrespect for anybody who has an opinion siding with the "no" campaign is really evident and its happening on every form of social media. it definitely will cost some votes however ultimately the bill will pass.

    its very ironic that these people are looking for equality and all that, yet they resort to bullying, intimidation and discrimination to anybody with a different opinion to theirs.

    Agree! I was on the fence for a time as I wanted to educate myself about the referendum before I made up my mind. I thought the Yes side was so bullyish and aggressive. You cannot say you're voting No without being lynched!

    I think the No side is actually gaining a lot of steam. I have heard a lot more people come out and say they're voting No now. At the start, they were scared for the above reasons. I actually don't think it will be passed if I'm honest.


  • #8574
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Point out to me where anyone on the no side is discriminating people on the yes side?

    where did i say that?


  • #8575
    kunst nugget
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    floggg wrote: »
    So yes, I think a cake shop being forced to bake a cake is a small price to pay to live in a society where exclusion and bigotry are not tolerated.

    Should a gay baker be forced to make a cake that says 'Jesus says Gay People should practice Abstinence!' with Jesus giving the thumbs up?


  • #8576
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    Voting yes is forcing your morals on others too if you're to look at it like that,

    No it really isn't.

    The Catholic Church will remain free to discriminate against gay couples as it does with divorced individuals etc.


  • #8577
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    osarusan wrote: »
    As an aside, I wish the main parties could have got together and come up with a small number of designs for posters, endorsed by all parties.

    Each party has different designs and wording and the effect is diluted.

    One series of posters, with the logos of all parties around it, would have been more effective.

    I agree, and Yes Equality crowdfunded well over 50k for a bus - surely some of it would have been better spent on posters?

    I actually think Yes Equality have made a bit of a balls of it all, they had stuff available online to sell and then were completely unresponsive to anyone who made a purchase or asked a question. As a result I ended up not bothering to order t shirts (of which a number of family members wanted one) because no one would respond to my queries on sizing. Then they ran out of car stickers and bags within about a week of getting them in and although about a dozen people have asked me where I got my car sticker, they cant get one themselves.


  • #8578
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    CarpeDiem85 wrote: »
    Agree! I was on the fence for a time as I wanted to educate myself about the referendum before I made up my mind. I thought the Yes side was so bullyish and aggressive. You cannot say you're voting No without being lynched!
    It's an extremely emotive issue and when people say they're voting no then an explanation is being sought. There's still no valid reason to vote no and as such, it's frustrating.

    There's no bullying going on though from the yes side as I see it. All I see are the no side playing the victim when asked to give a valid reason for their choice.


  • #8579
    MrWalsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    _Whimsical_ wrote: »
    Voting yes is forcing your morals on others too if you're to look at it like that, but that's the whole basis of democracy, the right to self determination in the electoral sphere.

    No it is not. No one will be forced to marry someone of the same sex. Heterosexual marriage will still be available. Religious marriage will still be available.


  • #8580
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    CarpeDiem85 wrote: »
    Agree! I was on the fence for a time as I wanted to educate myself about the referendum before I made up my mind. I thought the Yes side was so bullyish and aggressive. You cannot say you're voting No without being lynched!

    I think the No side is actually gaining a lot of steam. I have heard a lot more people come out and say they're voting No now. At the start, they were scared for the above reasons. I actually don't think it will be passed if I'm honest.

    That's you certainly seizing the day! Have you examples of this lynching or is it just pulling apart their flimsy arguments


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  • #8581
    gravehold
    Closed Accounts Posts: 912 ✭✭✭gravehold


    kunst nugget wrote: »
    Should a gay baker be forced to make a cake that says 'Jesus says Gay People should practice Abstinence!' with Jesus giving the thumbs up?

    shoebat.com/2014/12/12/christian-man-asks-thirteen-gay-bakeries-bake-pro-traditional-marriage-cake-denied-service-watch-shocking-video/

    America but yes gay cake shops have an issue with that, only Christian shops should be forced to cater to people they don't want business from


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