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Spare a thought for the leafy suburbs...

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    #32
    lima
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    jon1981 wrote: »
    We talk about this asset, which is based on market valuations/speculation.. until it's converted to cold hard cash it has as much worth as the blank piece of A4 paper sitting on my desk. It's an asset, not income (referring to home occupiers only)

    Much like my Shares.


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    #33
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    lima wrote: »
    Much like my Shares.

    You pay CGT when you sell them, you don't pay taxes on them as the price changes throughout the 60 years that you own them


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    #34
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    lima wrote: »
    Much like my Shares.

    Exactly which are not taxed until you recognise the value!


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    #35
    Greyian
    Registered Users Posts: 963 ✭✭✭Greyian


    jon1981 wrote: »
    until it's converted to cold hard cash it has as much worth as the blank piece of A4 paper sitting on my desk.

    Except as a place to live, unlike the piece of paper...


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    #36
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The tax should have come in like the old rates. All houses had a relative value assigned effectively depending on the rental income they could command. Bigger better houses had a higher rateable value. A multiplier was declared every year
    and the everyone paid pro rata with their original valuation. There was no sharp movement depending on fluctuations in market values. It was common in the time of rates (pre 1977) for widows to sell houses because the rates were too high.
    Elderly people should in fact be assisted to move to smaller homes in their own areas. For many the stress of selling and buyinag again is too much. One idea would be to convert some two storey houses to two apartments and a local widow or widower who sells their house in the area could be given a life tenancy for a fixed sum. This would improve the housing supply and improve stock and the quality of life of elderly people who would not have to leave their home areas.


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    #37
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,710 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    jon1981 wrote: »
    That's all well and good for me and you that have the time (while still earning) to provision for this when retired...it's a bit late for people all ready retired and living of state benefits to expect them to adjust as easily, no? So the solution is hard luck? This tax is new, people need to given time to adjust.

    People already retired can most likely remember the time prior to rates (LPT equivalent) being abolished as an election promise in, I think, 1977, and should be well aware that these taxes can come and go with government whim.

    And I repeat, if an elderly person has no income apart from state benefits, LPT is the least of their problems.


    And before anyone says I'm begrudgerous, i already pay LPT of around the amount mentioned in the original article, on a house worth one quarter of the one being discussed here. LPT rates in Ireland are low in my eyes.


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    #38
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    LPT rates in Ireland are low in my eyes.

    Indeed, I pay council tax in the UK at a rate of 2.5 times what I'd pay in Ireland.


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    #39
    lima
    Registered Users Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭lima


    First world problem really - house price goes up but property tax then goes up.


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    #40
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    lima wrote: »
    First world problem really - house price goes up but property tax then goes up.

    First world problem, Third world attitude:- The fella next door should pay, not me!


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    #41
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,981 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    jon1981 wrote: »
    So you'd be happy to sell up if you hadn't the means, you're in the minority.

    Lets place this in perspective. My grandmother lives in a house in Dublin worth roughly 1.5 million, a odd 7 bedroom house in Harold's Cross. She, like the OP's mother, is asset rich and cash poor. Does anybody see the thread I created on this forum talking about how my poor grandmother who gets 200 Euros a week can't afford the tax on her home? With the advent of her husband dying, living on the state pension alone and upcoming budget cuts/taxes she rented out rooms in her house. She looked at her situation and took the best course of action. She has and still considers selling up and moving into a home or small bungalow, but for now gets lots of company and chatter with her tenants. Who are grateful for cheap low priced accommodation in Dublin.

    I come from a family of pragmatists. A house is a house, its a asset that can go up and down in value and it has a cost. People never seem to care that much when they move upwards but suggest downsizing and they **** themselves.

    The years I worked in construction, where I visited elderly people who were living in 2 rooms of a 3-8 bed house, which had thousands of Euro worth of damage to it because they hadn't gone up the stairs in decades, couldn't turn on the heating due to the cost and hadn't showered in decades because the shower was upstairs changed my view on the situation completely. There are two sides to every coin and a more mobile population has benefits.


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    #42
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,838 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Indeed, I pay council tax in the UK at a rate of 2.5 times what I'd pay in Ireland.

    Thats a political matter between you and your representatives. There are so many differences in the revenue systems in Britain and Ireland that highlighting one element alone tells very of the story.


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    #43
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,838 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    lima wrote: »
    Well she can't 'afford' the tax and is sitting on a huge asset. This is life. Deal with it.


    I'm can't quite put my finger on when the balance of Ireland being a society tipped over to Ireland being an economy, but I'm certain we're there now.


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    #44
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Sorry but the LPT isn't short sighted at all, it's very long sighted if anything.

    This is exactly what it's designed to do; create an ongoing high cost for living in a large valuable property to keep liquidity in the market. Granny moves out of 5 bedroom mansion and large family buys it. Society as a whole benefits.

    As supply increases property prices stabilise and we don't have Granny sitting in a house too big for her and a family of 6 living in a two bedroom apartment paying €2000 a month for the privilege.

    Yes we need better infrastructure to ensure people aren't forced out of areas, that is a very real, legitimate and compassionate view and is 100% right IMHO. That's a different problem, however.


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    #45
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,376 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    How you use the space in a house is interesting, my husband and I live between the kitchen, the living room and our bedroom, the other two bedroom are really only used when my children come to visit, months could go by and I would never go in to those two room, however I would not like to live in a smaller space, plus the garden would be a big consideration for me.


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    #46
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Indeed, I pay council tax in the UK at a rate of 2.5 times what I'd pay in Ireland.
    What else is included ? Do bibs have a separate charge? Is the money going straight to your council or does 20% go to a different council?


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    #47
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Sorry but the LPT isn't short sighted at all, it's very long sighted if anything.

    This is exactly what it's designed to do; create an ongoing high cost for living in a large valuable property to keep liquidity in the market. Granny moves out of 5 bedroom mansion and large family buys it. Society as a whole benefits.

    As supply increases property prices stabilise and we don't have Granny sitting in a house too big for her and a family of 6 living in a two bedroom apartment paying €2000 a month for the privilege.

    Yes we need better infrastructure to ensure people aren't forced out of areas, that is a very real, legitimate and compassionate view and is 100% right IMHO. That's a different problem, however.

    So your suggesting a Sq foot tax? Some one beds in dublin can cost as much as a 5 bed outside Dublin


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    #48
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    I'm a bit fed up of asset-rich, cash-poor people setting up the system to suit themselves so that PAYE workers can get screwed.

    It's a tax on wealth. If you don't have the liquidity to pay it, address it.


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    #49
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    ted1 wrote: »
    So your suggesting a Sq foot tax? Some one beds in dublin can cost as much as a 5 bed outside Dublin

    No.


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    #50
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,300 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    No.

    But you were talking about a granny in a large 5 bed house, moving to a smaller one. House prices are affected mainly by location.


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    #51
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    ted1 wrote: »
    But you were talking about a granny in a large 5 bed house, moving to a smaller one. House prices are affected mainly by location.

    Of course they are. And you're intelligent enough to work out the implications of all of that. I'm not engaging in a spurious, derailing side argument.

    If you want to make a fully explained reasoned point I'll be delighted to read it. I'm not going down this road with single point counter point line by line cryptic arguments.


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    #52
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    mickman wrote: »
    house is worth 600k ? Sell it and buy a small apartment
    McGrath5 wrote: »
    Is there a reason why your mother will not downsize?
    ted1 wrote: »
    So you think that someone who has lived there whole life in an area, who's family and support network all live locally should sell their house and move to a different county? So what if the house is 3 times the national average. It might still be the cheapest house in the local area.
    No one should be forced out of an area, based on property speculation.
    Until you sell your house it's only worth what you paid for it.

    I agree totally with the above posts. Why should you have to move home because of a tax on the value of your house? A value which you have no influence over.

    ted1 wrote: »
    She may also have a huge mortgage which might make the house a liability as oppose to asset.

    A high value house in no way reflects wealth.

    Excellent point ted. Net disposable income is a fairer way to tax for people who have already purchased houses and are sitting on negative equity because of the crash. However for people buying after the tax is introduced then taxing on the disposable income is unfair as you would have people deliberately trying to minimise their taxes by reducing taxable income.
    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Indeed, I pay council tax in the UK at a rate of 2.5 times what I'd pay in Ireland.
    but you get a lot more for your council tax than we do. You get free healthcare (including GP)...we don't. Unfair comparison
    MarkAnthony wrote: »
    Sorry but the LPT isn't short sighted at all, it's very long sighted if anything.

    I disagree. By taxing on the value of the house, its directing builders to build smaller houses (eg lower value) as that's what people will demand (so they pay less taxes). Over time we'll be left with small pokey houses in the country. Similar to when property investor incentives encouraged apartment building...we ended up with a load of one bed apartments unsuitable for living in, just so the builders could build more apartments for the investors.
    gaius c wrote: »
    I'm a bit fed up of asset-rich, cash-poor people setting up the system to suit themselves so that PAYE workers can get screwed.
    It's a tax on wealth. If you don't have the liquidity to pay it, address it.

    But in fairness everybody paid tax(es) on the purchase of the property in the first place. You paid stamp duty on the purchase of the property and VAT on new builds.


    I think a fairer tax would be a tax per head of population. I think it should be paid to a central pot to allow a fair distribution of the fund so every council can provide services to their constituents.


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    #53
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Thats a political matter between you and your representatives. There are so many differences in the revenue systems in Britain and Ireland that highlighting one element alone tells very of the story.

    I know what you're getting at but what I'm saying is that the property tax is not debilitatingly expensive. It's a modest charge. I have a problem with it varying with the whims of the property market which is very much in flux at the moment. I would have prefered that the went for a similar system to the UK where the prices were set and you were allocated a band and the variances in house price year to year didn't dictate your tax due.

    Nonetheless, I agree with gauis, this is entirely a wealth tax. If you can't afford your assets, you can't keep them. There have been a number of good points made by people here which I needn't reiterate.


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    #54
    jp101
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭jp101


    LPT can be deferred for income reasons. So your granny can both not pay and stay in the house.


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    #55
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,838 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    gaius c wrote: »
    I'm a bit fed up of asset-rich, cash-poor people setting up the system to suit themselves so that PAYE workers can get screwed.

    It's a tax on wealth. If you don't have the liquidity to pay it, address it.

    Asset rich meaning mortgage cleared? Cash poor meaning on a pension? Assets only mean wealth if they are readily realisable.

    The same folk that were PAYE workers in their time, including the disgusting rates of the 1980s.

    If they were setting up the system to suit themselves, they certainly would have got busy with it earlier in life........


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    #56
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    daheff wrote: »
    but you get a lot more for your council tax than we do. You get free healthcare (including GP)...we don't. Unfair comparison

    Haha what? Council tax does not fund healthcare. That's funded centrally not locally.

    Edit: Council tax does pay for bin collection which when deducting the average from the rate I pay, equates to still double what I'd pay in Ireland.


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    #57
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Non-story in my opinion.

    She's speculating wildly on the property prices rising(that always works well) and clearly just paying lip service to her own constituents.

    As others have said, it's a wealth tax, not a tax on income.


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    #58
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    daheff wrote: »
    I agree totally with the above posts. Why should you have to move home because of a tax on the value of your house? A value which you have no influence over.

    Because the LPT leads to more stable house prices in the long term rather than a boom bust cycle.
    daheff wrote: »
    Excellent point ted. Net disposable income is a fairer way to tax for people who have already purchased houses and are sitting on negative equity because of the crash. However for people buying after the tax is introduced then taxing on the disposable income is unfair as you would have people deliberately trying to minimise their taxes by reducing taxable income.

    Of course getting rid of all taxes and simply applying a flat rate of income tax is fairer again. There are public policy reasons why we don't do this.
    daheff wrote: »
    but you get a lot more for your council tax than we do. You get free healthcare (including GP)...we don't. Unfair comparison

    Sorry if this is misquoted to you. the NHS predates the council tax. It's not an unfair comparison really. It works in England and Wales where it's based of property value and, of course, rightly allowances are made for the unemployed, pensioners and people living on their own.
    daheff wrote: »
    I disagree. By taxing on the value of the house, its directing builders to build smaller houses (eg lower value) as that's what people will demand (so they pay less taxes). Over time we'll be left with small pokey houses in the country. Similar to when property investor incentives encouraged apartment building...we ended up with a load of one bed apartments unsuitable for living in, just so the builders could build more apartments for the investors.

    This is countered by any number of factors including, market demand and building regulations.
    daheff wrote: »
    But in fairness everybody paid tax(es) on the purchase of the property in the first place. You paid stamp duty on the purchase of the property and VAT on new builds.

    I've absolutely no issues with these being abolished, again it would help market liquidity.
    daheff wrote: »
    I think a fairer tax would be a tax per head of population. I think it should be paid to a central pot to allow a fair distribution of the fund so every council can provide services to their constituents.

    See income tax argument, which I don't wholly disagree with in fairness.


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    #59
    jon1981
    Registered Users Posts: 4,359 ✭✭✭jon1981


    jp101 wrote: »
    LPT can be deferred for income reasons. So your granny can both not pay and stay in the house.

    Problem solved, owner can't pay, owner gets LPT deferred, LPT builds up over time, owner dies, house gets sold, LPT is paid and everybody is happy, right? Owner got to stay, Revenue got their money eventually.

    oh wait, we didn't drive the owner out of the home...dammit!!!


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    #60
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    jon1981 wrote: »
    Problem solved, owner can't pay, owner gets LPT deferred, LPT builds up over time, owner dies, house gets sold, LPT is paid and everybody is happy, right? Owner got to stay, Revenue got their money eventually.

    oh wait, we didn't drive the owner out of the home...dammit!!!

    No one is ever happy paying tax.

    That said needs have to be balanced, IMHO this isn't a good way of doing it LPT should be paid as it falls due. That said I can see the benefits of doing it this way. It might also encourage children to take on the responsibility of caring for an elderly relative, if they choose to and provides a tax benefit.

    Granny sells house, family home so not subject to CGT. Money can then be used to help fund her care, only the remainder is subject to inheritance tax and there is no build up of LPT.

    I'm not saying everyone does this but some of the estate sales you see out there, where it's clear an elderly relative has been living without the house being upgraded or even som much as redecorated since the 80s is just sad.


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    #61
    daveyeh
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭daveyeh


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Many of these properties are owned by retired people who have limited means to afford any increase.

    They could move...


This discussion has been closed.
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