Game Time Under Joe: The Numbers

shuffol · 24-03-2015 10:31AM

Big Nelly wrote: »

What about the big lad down in Grenoble? he done anything recently after scoring that try?

I know Jackman said on radio before that Joe was aware of him and would use any player at his disposal if he thought he could help the team

Chris Farrell, very like McCloskey except a little less physical but a more natural runner.

Oldings no shrinking violet, very much like D'arcy in terms of build.

bilston · 24-03-2015 10:32AM

.ak wrote: »

Mcfadden, Olding, Earls, Madigan are all under 5'11" which makes a big difference. And to be honest I don't believe those stats, Madigan is no taller than me and I'm 5'9" at best.

There's also other options like JJ, Cave, Reid, Keatley etc., etc.

Now, these may seem like strange choices, but like I said, try to remove ourselves from our current situation. A few months ago Henshaw had a few token caps and Payne had none. The announcement of Henshaw at 12 and Payne at 13 was considered very experimental at the time. So it wasn't like they were more experienced or even better than guys like the above. For me, I think he sees the way modern centres are going; guys like Fickou, Fofana, Basteraud, Burrell, Davies, Roberts etc are all big guys, tall and hefty, and presumably good in the air and good with the boot. It means that you're not limiting your midfield to guys who are purely there for distribution. Bigger guys offer a better running threat for dummy lines, but also they can compete in the air, and can return kicks, which is instrumental to Schmidt's game plan at times. Defensively having big units like Henshaw and Payne in midfield has clearly paid off - Basteraud barely got a sniff of a midfield break.

The beauty is these guys are outrageously skilled as well, so I don't think they're there to be big league-style lumps, and we've yet to see them at their full potential - hopefully we're patient with them.

The point is I can't see guys like Olding or Madigan ever playing there bar injury.

So you are basically saying that if BOD had emerged now he wouldn't have made it?

.ak · 24-03-2015 10:33AM

Jaysus the size of his arms! Yeah he's a very explosive package - but he is short, and that's my point. He's not the big package players like Henshaw and Payne etc.

.ak · 24-03-2015 10:36AM

bilston wrote: »

So you are basically saying that if BOD had emerged now he wouldn't have made it?

Unfortunately I think there is an element of that isn't there? BOD and Darce really struggled last season against big centres. I'm trying to block the Toulon game out of my mind but Basteraud was making hay of them... and that was after he did the exact same thing in Paris a few months before where literally in the first moments of the game BOD and Darce doubled up on Basteraud and he still broke the line. A few backs were actually giving BOD the slip in those games just through sheer bulk.

... now BOD is special, and has always been able to change up his game, and I'm sure being on retirements door didn't help, but you wonder even if he had an extra few years in him I could see Schmidt not picking him. Sure Gatland didn't pick him for that very reason, rightly or wrongly.

Olding is very much the reincarnation of BOD (only slightly bigger I think?) in the modern game... but I struggle to see how he'll make it in a green jersey.

Utah_Saint · 24-03-2015 10:36AM

Big Nelly wrote: »

What about the big lad down in Grenoble? he done anything recently after scoring that try?

I know Jackman said on radio before that Joe was aware of him and would use any player at his disposal if he thought he could help the team

Chris Farrell. Haven't heard much about him. He's in the same sort size as Big Mc. Again very much a modern centre. I can see him back in Ireland in a few seasons if he's going well.

Utah_Saint · 24-03-2015 10:41AM

Forfana and Mermoz are both 5"11". More athletic than muscular

The Pheasant2 · 24-03-2015 10:42AM

I'd be really disappointed if Olding doesn't get a chance - he has such ability to carve defences open and his bit of experience at 10 gives him those distribution skills. Not a Roberts or a Nonu but I think there's definitely a place for Olding's play style; maybe as more of a "second 5/8"

Tox56 · 24-03-2015 10:48AM

.ak wrote: »

Mcfadden, Olding, Earls, Madigan are all under 5'11" which makes a big difference. And to be honest I don't believe those stats, Madigan is no taller than me and I'm 5'9" at best.

There's also other options like JJ, Cave, Reid, Keatley etc., etc.

Now, these may seem like strange choices, but like I said, try to remove ourselves from our current situation. A few months ago Henshaw had a few token caps and Payne had none. The announcement of Henshaw at 12 and Payne at 13 was considered very experimental at the time. So it wasn't like they were more experienced or even better than guys like the above. For me, I think he sees the way modern centres are going; guys like Fickou, Fofana, Basteraud, Burrell, Davies, Roberts etc are all big guys, tall and hefty, and presumably good in the air and good with the boot. It means that you're not limiting your midfield to guys who are purely there for distribution. Bigger guys offer a better running threat for dummy lines, but also they can compete in the air, and can return kicks, which is instrumental to Schmidt's game plan at times. Defensively having big units like Henshaw and Payne in midfield has clearly paid off - Basteraud barely got a sniff of a midfield break.

The beauty is these guys are outrageously skilled as well, so I don't think they're there to be big league-style lumps, and we've yet to see them at their full potential - hopefully we're patient with them.

The point is I can't see guys like Olding or Madigan ever playing there bar injury.

McFadden is down as 6' and nearly 15 stone and he punches above his weight physically too so size wouldn't really be an issue for him, but in any case he and Earls were both injured for the SA game, and with all respect to Olding and Madigan I don't think size was their problem, and long term I don't think size is why Madigan won't be an international 12, but I do think Olding has a very good chance at making it. I think he'll at the very least get an opportunity for Ireland, he just needs to take it with both hands when he does. We won a six nations with two very small guys in midfield, if there's enough quality in an Olding-Henshaw midfield I don't think size will be a problem

captbarnacles · 24-03-2015 11:00AM

BOD and Darcys low centre of gravity made them great at jackaling though. Olding might be the same or even better looking at those biceps :eek:

dub_skav · 24-03-2015 11:10AM

Coaches can certainly have a preference for a type/size of player, but I think it's hilarious to suggest that Joe has a sign on the wall in his office that says "You must be this tall to play centre ---->".

Coaches will make the best use of the players available to them. If there is a tight call between 2 players they may choose the bigger/taller/faster/better kicker/insert criterium here, but they will not exclude a special talent based on their physical size.

There has been a perceived move to bigger centres, but I don't think it's as pronounced as people are making out.

.ak · 24-03-2015 11:12AM

McFadden is 6" me hole. :P The Irish site says 5'11" but frankly I've met him enough times to know he isn't 6".

He is a big lad tho.

Anyway, we'll see, our opinions will only really come through over the next year or two.... so book mark this page!

.ak · 24-03-2015 11:14AM

dub_skav wrote: »

Coaches can certainly have a preference for a type/size of player, but I think it's hilarious to suggest that Joe has a sign on the wall in his office that says "You must be this tall to play centre ---->".

Coaches will make the best use of the players available to them. If there is a tight call between 2 players they may choose the bigger/taller/faster/better kicker/insert criterium here, but they will not exclude a special talent based on their physical size.

There has been a perceived move to bigger centres, but I don't think it's as pronounced as people are making out.

Nobody actually suggested that though, atleast not to that level of 'hilarity'? :P He's obviously not going to deny players like Olding a cap if they're the best for the job... but, my point is, right now the best men for the current job are the big fullback-cum-centres ala Henshaw and Payne. Those couple of inches make a big difference in international rugby.

And Schmidt has always wanted big tall centres in Leinster, they just weren't he wanted Sheridan to be developed, he signed Goodman, he was the man behind the Coughlan to 12 development.

dub_skav · 24-03-2015 11:32AM

.ak wrote: »

Nobody actually suggested that though, atleast not to that level of 'hilarity'? :P He's obviously not going to deny players like Olding a cap if they're the best for the job... but, my point is, right now the best men for the current job are the big fullback-cum-centres ala Henshaw and Payne. Those couple of inches make a big difference in international rugby.

And Schmidt has always wanted big tall centres in Leinster, they just weren't he wanted Sheridan to be developed, he signed Goodman, he was the man behind the Coughlan to 12 development.

He also stuck with Darce through some tough times and tried his best to get O'Malley into the team, aswell as using Madigan at 12.
So, like I said he may have a preference, but he will recognise potential and work with what he has.

total former · 24-03-2015 12:29PM

.ak wrote: »

Unfortunately I think there is an element of that isn't there? BOD and Darce really struggled last season against big centres. I'm trying to block the Toulon game out of my mind but Basteraud was making hay of them... and that was after he did the exact same thing in Paris a few months before where literally in the first moments of the game BOD and Darce doubled up on Basteraud and he still broke the line. A few backs were actually giving BOD the slip in those games just through sheer bulk.

... now BOD is special, and has always been able to change up his game, and I'm sure being on retirements door didn't help, but you wonder even if he had an extra few years in him I could see Schmidt not picking him. Sure Gatland didn't pick him for that very reason, rightly or wrongly.

Olding is very much the reincarnation of BOD (only slightly bigger I think?) in the modern game... but I struggle to see how he'll make it in a green jersey.

Ehhh, I think I disagree with absolutely everything in this post, if that's OK?

BOD and D'Arcy would absolutely have made it if they came through now. At no point in their careers did either man lack for physicality. Yes, they got bumped around by Bastareaud but who doesn't? D'Arcy in particular was a defensive rock in last year's 6N, stats similar to Henshaw this season IIRC.

It's not all about size; Payne might be bigger than BOD but is he a better or more physical defender? He's not even close, based on what I've seen. If BOD had "an extra few years in him", he'd still be first choice, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I don't think the selection of Henshaw at 12 means that Joe exclusively wants big men in the back line, that's a serious extrapolation there; so if Olding can demonstrate that he has the ability, then he'll get a shot - his problem is that he hasn't really done so yet.

.ak · 24-03-2015 12:31PM

total former wrote: »

Ehhh, I think I disagree with absolutely everything in this post, if that's OK?

BOD and D'Arcy would absolutely have made it if they came through now. At no point in their careers did either man lack for physicality. Yes, they got bumped around by Bastareaud but who doesn't? D'Arcy in particular was a defensive rock in last year's 6N, stats similar to Henshaw this season IIRC.

It's not all about size; Payne might be bigger than BOD but is he a better or more physical defender? He's not even close, based on what I've seen. If BOD had "an extra few years in him", he'd still be first choice, I don't think there's any doubt about that.

I don't think the selection of Henshaw at 12 means that Joe exclusively wants big men in the back line, that's a serious extrapolation there; so if Olding can demonstrate that he has the ability, then he'll get a shot - his problem is that he hasn't really done so yet.

No, it's not OK!!!

:P

I just think the size centres are now adays is vastly different to 10 years ago. There's no doubt BOD and Darce struggled to deal with big men in the last 12 months and I don't think that has anything to do with age - if anything they're better defenders now then they ever were.

Payne isn't a better defender, you're right, but physics play a huge part in rugby system defence. One on one BOD was a mean defender and his ability to get back onto his feet after completing a tackle was massive.. however, a blitz defence standing up attackers requires big units, and we've seen how our defence has been organised it requires that blanket of big men rather than shooters. We also look to put two in each tackle, you can't really do that effectively with one little man and one big one. Look how we defended against France this year for example.

EDIT: Also, by the way, I never said BOD wouldn't make it - infact, I implied BOD is so good he probably would and be able to change his style to suit the modern game as he's done before.

.ak · 24-03-2015 12:36PM

dub_skav wrote: »

He also stuck with Darce through some tough times and tried his best to get O'Malley into the team, aswell as using Madigan at 12.
So, like I said he may have a preference, but he will recognise potential and work with what he has.

Yeah, absolutely, and I don't disagree with that.

My point is about his preference and how it's used to implement a certain style and gameplan - what you say is pretty much in agreement with the point I'm making?

Olding/'small centres' won't get a look in unless there's injuries. He certainly won't be changing that up this side of the RWC, or after imo.

dub_skav · 24-03-2015 12:37PM

.ak wrote: »

No, it's not OK!!!

:P

I just think the size centres are now adays is vastly different to 10 years ago. There's no doubt BOD and Darce struggled to deal with big men in the last 12 months and I don't think that has anything to do with age - if anything they're better defenders now then they ever were.

Payne isn't a better defender, you're right, but physics play a huge part in rugby system defence. One on one BOD was a mean defender and his ability to get back onto his feet after completing a tackle was massive.. however, a blitz defence standing up attackers requires big units, and we've seen how our defence has been organised it requires that blanket of big men rather than shooters. We also look to put two in each tackle, you can't really do that effectively with one little man and one big one. Look how we defended against France this year for example.

EDIT: Also, by the way, I never said BOD wouldn't make it - infact, I implied BOD is so good he probably would and be able to change his style to suit the modern game as he's done before.

Maybe we're using a blanket because Payne is a poor shooter?

I'm sure that Les Kiss - like Joe - can adapt to use the skills of the best players available to him, rather than having a rigid system that the players all must conform to.

I don't think we'll agree on this. I just don't see the imminent demise of the smaller player, that's all really.

Edit: OK, maybe we do agree after all. You think he has a strong preference, I believe he may have a preference, but if he does he is willing to look beyond it very quickly.

.ak · 24-03-2015 12:42PM

Well I assume having a good strength in midfield collectively is far more effective than having good shooters like BOD or Darce. The issue with the shooter system, which is still very much considered a traditional system by a lot of teams, is we see how dangerous it can be. We saw it against France last year with the two of them often shooting but slipping off Basteraud or another attacker and then we'd concede 20m in territory. A blanket defence designed to smoother big runners might not stop the runner dead in their tracks but it potentially concedes less ground.

I don't think guys like Olding or Madigan can adapt to that sort of system - well, I'm sure they can as they're both great defenders but they wouldn't be as effective.

total former · 24-03-2015 12:48PM

.ak wrote: »

No, it's not OK!!!

:P

I just think the size centres are now adays is vastly different to 10 years ago. There's no doubt BOD and Darce struggled to deal with big men in the last 12 months and I don't think that has anything to do with age - if anything they're better defenders now then they ever were.

Payne isn't a better defender, you're right, but physics play a huge part in rugby system defence. One on one BOD was a mean defender and his ability to get back onto his feet after completing a tackle was massive.. however, a blitz defence standing up attackers requires big units, and we've seen how our defence has been organised it requires that blanket of big men rather than shooters. We also look to put two in each tackle, you can't really do that effectively with one little man and one big one. Look how we defended against France this year for example.

But see I think you're looking at the Bastareaud situation in isolation; Roberts and Burrell would surely be classed as 'big men' and got nowhere against us last season? So I think there is definitely doubt that they struggled against big men, Bastareaud is just a freak.

EDIT: Also, by the way, I never said BOD wouldn't make it - infact, I implied BOD is so good he probably would and be able to change his style to suit the modern game as he's done before.

Did I misunderstand this bit then?

.ak wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

So you are basically saying that if BOD had emerged now he wouldn't have made it?

Unfortunately I think there is an element of that isn't there?

shuffol · 24-03-2015 01:26PM

Last year we could have been saying that big centers won't have a future under Schmidt as both our starters are under 6 foot. Too much shouldn't be read into the current selection. They got their chance in the AI's, looked alright and were stuck with.

.ak · 24-03-2015 05:05PM

total former wrote: »

But see I think you're looking at the Bastareaud situation in isolation; Roberts and Burrell would surely be classed as 'big men' and got nowhere against us last season? So I think there is definitely doubt that they struggled against big men, Bastareaud is just a freak.

Did I misunderstand this bit then?

Well yes, not sure how me saying there is an element of it (i.e; an element of truth) as saying it being outright true as being the same thing?

AbusesToilets · 25-03-2015 02:57AM

In some ways, I really wish there was another season to go until the world cup. There are so many players coming back from injury who could make an impact that won't get a shot. I'd love to see more of the Ulster lads given a shot, Marshall and Olding have real potential and Gilroy seems to be coming back into form. Same with Fitz and Earls. I fear that we will head to the WC without some of our most skilled players because Joe likes to stick with what he knows. A Fitz/ Henshaw partnership could be tasty, hell a Fitz / Earls set up could be dynamite. Who knows, we'll probably not get a chance to find out.

crybaby · 25-03-2015 07:14AM

AbusesToilets wrote: »

A Fitz/ Henshaw partnership could be tasty, hell a Fitz / Earls set up could be dynamite. Who knows, we'll probably not get a chance to find out.

A Fitz / Earls setup would be conceding ground all over the place, need a good defence first if we are going to win games. One of them in at centre would be interesting alright but both of them at the same time would be risky to say the least.

.ak · 25-03-2015 08:26AM

Tbh I think we're in very, very good shape heading into the RWC... Fingers crossed. The only player who would feature in the first XV that might not be fit is Trimble.

We've got our best 23 all fit for once...

Remember Fitz was fit all the time, and to an extent so was earls. He just chose not to use them

phog · 25-03-2015 10:00AM

.ak wrote: »

Tbh I think we're in very, very good shape heading into the RWC... Fingers crossed. The only player who would feature in the first XV that might not be fit is Trimble.

We've got our best 23 all fit for once...

Remember Fitz was fit all the time, and to an extent so was earls. He just chose not to use them

Aside from Sexton and to a lesser degree Murray, I'd hate to face into a W/Cup campaign without them.

.ak · 25-03-2015 10:11AM

phog wrote: »

Aside from Sexton and to a lesser degree Murray, I'd hate to face into a W/Cup campaign without them.

How do you mean? Cuz of niggles? Or the cover in their position?

My point was we had our strongest XV available to us throughout the campaign so everyone got game time and there were no major injuries from it - which is amazing considering previous years.

Buer · 25-03-2015 11:39AM

.ak wrote: »

Tbh I think we're in very, very good shape heading into the RWC... Fingers crossed. The only player who would feature in the first XV that might not be fit is Trimble.

From the options that are available and the fact that he'll be pushing a year without a game, I think Trimble has a real fight on his hands to make the squad at all.

Fitzgerald, Zebo, Bowe, Earls all to travel.

I can see it being a straight shoot out between himself and Dave Kearney.

irishbucsfan · 25-03-2015 12:34PM

Buer wrote: »

From the options that are available and the fact that he'll be pushing a year without a game, I think Trimble has a real fight on his hands to make the squad at all.

Fitzgerald, Zebo, Bowe, Earls all to travel.

I can see it being a straight shoot out between himself and Dave Kearney.

Personally I dont think there's a chance Joe would consider Kearney over Trimble.

I think Trimble will travel if what Joe said about footedness of back 3 players being an important factor in considering selection is true.

Buer · 25-03-2015 12:55PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Personally I dont think there's a chance Joe would consider Kearney over Trimble.

I think Trimble will travel if what Joe said about footedness of back 3 players being an important factor in considering selection is true.

In normal circumstances, I would agree. However, Trimble has not stepped onto a pitch since the start of October. He'll be a full 10 months without a game come the warm ups nor will he have been involved in any training, patterns etc. since Argentina last summer so 14 months away from the Irish set up.

Schmidt seems to be firmly a man who believes in retaining someone who has been present and performing in the set up. I don't believe he sees Trimble as one of his important players either, despite his performances in last season's tournament. Trimble was left out of the 34 man squad entirely for Schmidt's first autumn in charge. I believe Bowe is the only winger who enjoys that luxury.

Kearney has done well of late, has been name checked by Schmidt as an option for the team, is also right footed (and Trimble's kicking game is not good) and will be fully fit.

I would think that Trimble is very unlikely at this point to get back into the Irish team and I'd put him at 50/50 to be in the squad.

total former · 25-03-2015 01:06PM

Buer wrote: »

In normal circumstances, I would agree. However, Trimble has not stepped onto a pitch since the start of October. He'll be a full 10 months without a game come the warm ups nor will he have been involved in any training, patterns etc. since Argentina last summer so 14 months away from the Irish set up.

Schmidt seems to be firmly a man who believes in retaining someone who has been present and performing in the set up. I don't believe he sees Trimble as one of his important players either, despite his performances in last season's tournament. Trimble was left out of the 34 man squad entirely for Schmidt's first autumn in charge. I believe Bowe is the only winger who enjoys that luxury.

Kearney has done well of late, has been name checked by Schmidt as an option for the team, is also right footed (and Trimble's kicking game is not good) and will be fully fit.

I would think that Trimble is very unlikely at this point to get back into the Irish team and I'd put him at 50/50 to be in the squad.

Yeah I agree with this. Like it or not, possession seems to be nine-tenths of the law when it comes to Joe's selections and I don't think Trimble is in the category of players who will just walk back into the squad.

Dave Kearney is a cautionary tale for Trimble, excellent November 2013, played every minute of the 2014 6N, then got injured for Argentina and November 2014 and is on the outside looking in now (but is at least in the larger squad). McFadden is in a similar boat.

I think DK, McFadden, Trimble and Zebo are all fighting over the same spot in the RWC squad.

Game Time Under Joe: The Numbers

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