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A discussion on the rules.

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Comments

  • #2012
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Why wouldn't that apply to PB.

    It'd be trolling if he was a communist with a lot of time on their hands and little to do stirring the pot for their own amusement. It's a political forum, if you start banning people for unpopular political views it'd get boring.


  • #2013
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    nesf wrote: »
    It'd be trolling if he was a communist with a lot of time on their hands and little to do stirring the pot for their own amusement. It's a political forum, if you start banning people for unpopular political views it'd get boring.

    Although the idea of banning people for unpopular political views remains as popular as ever.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #2014
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    It's often not a debate on the merits of one policy vs. another, but a debate between people making unsubstantiated claims (e.g. "it's illegal to install water meters") and people demonstrating that these claims are untrue.

    Um, most political discussions are like the above. The specific problem here is not that they are unsubstantiated claims but there are clearly false claims being made, e.g. Irish Water is privately owned because it is a private company.


  • #2015
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Although the idea of banning people for unpopular political views remains as popular as ever.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    When in Rome.


  • #2016
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    nesf wrote: »
    Um, most political discussions are like the above. The specific problem here is not that they are unsubstantiated claims but there are clearly false claims being made, e.g. Irish Water is privately owned because it is a private company.

    That's probably a better way of putting it alright.


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  • #2017
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Eugene Norman wrote: »

    As far as I am concerned if its trolling to keep repeating the same arguments the PB is the master of trolling.


    In my opinion, it is not trolling to simply keep repeating the same arguments.

    It is trolling to keep repeating the same unsubstantiated or disproved arguments.

    In an astronomy forum it wouldn't be trolling to argue for an alternative theory to the Big Bang Theory but it would be trolling to argue that the sun revolves around the earth.

    Similarly in this forum it is not trolling to argue that the economic crash was caused by X or Y, neither is it trolling to argue that we should ignore the environmental arguments and the EU and not charge for water. However, in my opinion, it is trolling if you repeatedly argue that unless you sign up you don't have a contract with Irish Water (the law clearly says you do have a contract) or you repeatedly say that the Derek Byrne 5 were jailed for protesting (when the court judgement clearly says otherwise) or that Irish Water is a private company (it takes a high level of ignorance for this one).

    It is more difficult with cases where someone complains repeatedly that we are paying twice or three times for water (because we are) and thinks this is somehow unique or special when we are clearly paying several times for many many other public services (or pork chops:D).

    I think the point the mods are making is that it is one thing to address repeatedly untrue arguments or lies, it is another thing to impose bans and infractions for ridiculous, absurd arguments. Unfortunately, not only have the anti-water charges posters got a large number of ridiculous, absurd arguments, they are also full of lies and mistruths mixed in (as the three above examples show) and many people are getting tired of no action being taken.


  • #2018
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2019
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2020
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I don't think there's a problem removing posters doing that from any forum (or at least I can't see any other than correctly identifying them from people merely saying unsubstantiated stuff). I think the impact of doing it won't be large though. People will just insist Irish Water will be sold off to the private sector rather than is privately owned and you can't and shouldn't do anything about them saying that.


  • #2021
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Do you have factual evidence to prove his opinion incorrect?

    If not, then it's a difference of opinion.


    What we're discussing is the issue surrounding facts and evidence on one side and contrary and unsupported opinion on the other.

    I trust you can see the difference?

    Of course I have the facts. The collapse of the world economy wasn't down to Greek teachers. For the love of Christ how can there be an argument about that.

    But I am happy enough to ridicule his ludicrous arguments rather than demand he be banned for trolling, as tireless a task it is.


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  • #2022
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    nesf wrote: »
    It'd be trolling if he was a communist with a lot of time on their hands and little to do stirring the pot for their own amusement. It's a political forum, if you start banning people for unpopular political views it'd get boring.

    Yeah, Thats my point. It is PB who wants to ban "trolls" not me.


  • #2023
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2024
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well you do have a lot of time on your hands.

    why is a "communist" a troll but an "anarcho-capitalist" as equally devoid from logic as any far-leftist not a troll?

    Its clear the libertarians want to run the political forum as a libertarians only zone. I suggest giving them a sub-forum to do that, and being less tolerant of them in politics.


  • #2025
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Godge wrote: »
    In my opinion, it is not trolling to simply keep repeating the same arguments.

    It is trolling to keep repeating the same unsubstantiated or disproved arguments.

    In an astronomy forum it wouldn't be trolling to argue for an alternative theory to the Big Bang Theory but it would be trolling to argue that the sun revolves around the earth.

    Similarly in this forum it is not trolling to argue that the economic crash was caused by X or Y, neither is it trolling to argue that we should ignore the environmental arguments and the EU and not charge for water. However, in my opinion, it is trolling if you repeatedly argue that unless you sign up you don't have a contract with Irish Water (the law clearly says you do have a contract) or you repeatedly say that the Derek Byrne 5 were jailed for protesting (when the court judgement clearly says otherwise) or that Irish Water is a private company (it takes a high level of ignorance for this one).

    It is more difficult with cases where someone complains repeatedly that we are paying twice or three times for water (because we are) and thinks this is somehow unique or special when we are clearly paying several times for many many other public services (or pork chops:D).

    I think the point the mods are making is that it is one thing to address repeatedly untrue arguments or lies, it is another thing to impose bans and infractions for ridiculous, absurd arguments. Unfortunately, not only have the anti-water charges posters got a large number of ridiculous, absurd arguments, they are also full of lies and mistruths mixed in (as the three above examples show) and many people are getting tired of no action being taken.

    Let them argue and defeat them in argument. Thats the nature of argument.

    This isn't some modern university with trigger alerts, standards are higher, this is the internet.


  • #2026
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2027
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    why is a "communist" a troll but an "anarcho-capitalist" as equally devoid from logic as any far-leftist not a troll?

    Trolling is intentionally trying to work someone up not merely saying something that worked someone up. Both left and right are equally capable of both.


  • #2028
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Charters don't make as much of a difference as you'd like to think. If you try to make them more detailed people will argue finer and finer points over whether what they said was technically a false claim from the definition/example given in the charter and things get worse not better. Drawing a clear and simple line between unsubstantiated claims and untrue claims would be a nightmare mainly because of how hard it is to prove a negative.

    Charters are just guidelines, the mods can rule outside and inside what the charter states.

    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes, this is my basic point around why we won't get the old Boards back. Different crowd these days.


  • #2029
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2030
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes, I just don't agree a better charter and more mod time being applied will fix this. It's not that easy a problem and no I don't know the solution other than restricted access. It's a case of you get out what you put in here.


  • #2031
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    Not often we agree. However...


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  • #2032
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2033
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's not the logical conclusion of my argument. Sorry but you're being deliberately obtuse here about the difference between the results of moderating group A and a different group B.

    I'm not saying don't put up a better charter, I'm not saying don't add another mod, what I'm saying that these will make little difference because as we agreed earlier people will just switch tactics if one gets banned but the intent and mindset of the posters won't change and that's the core problem.


  • #2034
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2035
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Are you really giving me a lecture about the importance of people putting work into this site? Seriously?


  • #2036
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2037
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I "seem to be suggesting" do I? And you take an opposing viewpoint to what I "seem to suggest?" You're as bad as the ones you're complaining about you know, you just use fancier words to dress it up.


  • #2038
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Evidently you gentlemen are referring to a far more refined "trollfest" to the one I've been witnessing.


  • #2039
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #2040
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Lee Majors, this isnt the cafe so please debate the issue without getting into swipes against other posters or questioning their motives.

    Does this mean that personal swipes, etc are acceptable in the Cafe?

    Over the past weekend there's been a few posters whose only contribution has been name-calling a direct personal insults, with no action against them.

    If this is what the cafe is intended for then it's going to turn into nothing more than the comments section from the journal


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  • #2041
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Does this mean that personal swipes, etc are acceptable in the Cafe?

    Over the past weekend there's been a few posters whose only contribution has been name-calling a direct personal insults, with no action against them.

    If this is what the cafe is intended for then it's going to turn into nothing more than the comments section from the journal


    Well I've been on such forums, so as long as there are no rules at all I can live with it. However I feel at this stage if I do tell various deserving individuals what exactly they are I will be carded.

    I reported a post, Saturday or so, which highlights the problem, if any mod is interested. How a discussion can continue from that kind of thing, save in the direction of "fuck you" escapes me.


This discussion has been closed.
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