Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

devnull · 03-03-2015 01:50PM

To be fair the Garda enforcement of traffic offences in the city centre especially is ablsolutely shockingly light handed and it really annoys me all of the time I'm there.

There is so much light touch treatment to offenders that it just breeds more and more of the kind of behaviour that cdebru outlines, since the drivers / taxis have no fear of punishment.

Many a time I see road offences, and if the Garda do anything, which often they won't, they'll normally go up to the guy and tell him "Don't do it again" or "Please move your car" or suchlike.

The same car then comes back and does the same thing the next day, or the same day in another location and te cycle repeats over and over again in the knowledge that the Garda will never actually do anything beyond telling them off.

If we had more of a zero tolerance to this kinda stuff, driver swould soon learn when they got punished and knew they couldn't get away for it, now it's a free for all, often backed up witht he excuse of Garda Discretion, which actually, is used far too much to excuse light touch policing.

cdebru · 03-03-2015 03:54PM

devnull wrote: »

To be fair the Garda enforcement of traffic offences in the city centre especially is ablsolutely shockingly light handed and it really annoys me all of the time I'm there.

There is so much light touch treatment to offenders that it just breeds more and more of the kind of behaviour that cdebru outlines, since the drivers / taxis have no fear of punishment.

Many a time I see road offences, and if the Garda do anything, which often they won't, they'll normally go up to the guy and tell him "Don't do it again" or "Please move your car" or suchlike.

The same car then comes back and does the same thing the next day, or the same day in another location and te cycle repeats over and over again in the knowledge that the Garda will never actually do anything beyond telling them off.

If we had more of a zero tolerance to this kinda stuff, driver swould soon learn when they got punished and knew they couldn't get away for it, now it's a free for all, often backed up witht he excuse of Garda Discretion, which actually, is used far too much to excuse light touch policing.

I actually think discretion which in theory is not a terrible thing is often just an excuse not to bother doing anything, it just covers for laziness, I see that Gardai have recently started to deal with the undesirables that have been loitering and selling drugs openly in the city centre for the last few years, but it took the city centre business to hassle them before they did anything other than that they turned a blind eye to them openly dealing on the main streets of Dublin.

It doesn't annoy me to see them letting people away with a warning it is when they dont even bother to recognise the offences when they just join the queue in the bus lane, or park at the bus stop as well so they can run in the spar for a chicken roll while some poor blind guy has to be helped between the parked cars to board the bus that has now stopped out on the street. Or the Garda on the motor bike who takes off down the quays at 60 or 70 kmph in the 30 zone to set up a speed trap to catch someone doing 54 in the 50, or the garda yapping to his girlfriend on the mobile whilst driving, ( I know they can but I dont think that is what they had in mind when they exempted them) I think we need to come up with solutions that don't rely on Gardai to enforce the law because it ain't going to happen otherwise and the city is being choked to death in the meantime.

thomasj · 04-03-2015 10:28AM

One maybe for any Dublin bus drivers on here.

Is a driver meant to notify the depot when the bus is full?

On a 39a yesterday and it was a normal sized bus. The bus was full to the brim and skipped a lot of stops. It was a struggle trying to get off it. Not far behind it was a 39 that was used by a vt/triaxle bus and was over half empty.

The same thing happened this morning. Smaller bus used on the 39a, larger bus used on the 39! Surely given what happened yesterday the depot would have switched these buses ? A bit of common sense maybe?!

This route the 39a has to many problems on the morning. 10-15 minutes and buses not big enough leaving people behind etc. They need to fix it asap! I had a 15 minute wait and the bus is a smaller one and full but in fairness to the driver hes taking on as much as he can.

dfx- · 04-03-2015 03:00PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Hang on a sec...

The reality is DB is supposed to exist to provide a city bus service for Dublin - something it has, and continues to be, extremely poor at.

Exactly, a bus service for Dublin, not London or Gdynia or any of the plethora of alternative destinations listed on this forum. Berlin, Edinburgh, Munich, it goes on.

Unfortunately no-one is doing one for Dublin but trying to ape others. NTA being ultimate criminals in that respect.

LuckyLloyd · 04-03-2015 03:27PM

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

thomasj · 04-03-2015 04:47PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

I'm guessing you don't live on the 39/a route? ..........

MrMorooka · 04-03-2015 06:17PM

I've noticed that most outbound 39/a/70s now are using Tara St/Burgh Quay to get to Aston Quay now rather than the official Luas Cross City diversion via College St/Westmoreland St- it is easily 5 minutes faster, wonder why this was not chosen as the official route to begin with.

cdebru · 05-03-2015 07:58AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Am I the only one who is a regular DB user and happy with the service they provide?

Maybe you are just lucky !

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2015 02:01PM

cdebru wrote: »

Maybe you are just lucky !

Maybe. Although I get as many as five individual DB journeys a day across a variety of routes (11, 47, 75, 151, 79a, buses to Tallaght) and generally find the service to be reliable. Maybe I'm not a typical customer though? I use the app and know the various route options.

One of the mornings last week I walked out to hop on the 7:20 11 at Goatstown to see a number of punters at the stop, including a couple of faces who'd normally get the 07:00. Looking at the App I could see that there wasn't a bus due for another 20 mins meaning the 07:20 was probably cancelled. Looking at the buildup of punters I deduced there was probably a breakdown. Checked the App, saw there was a bus within 5 mins going the other way. Crossed the road, hopped on down to the LUAS stop at Stillorgan and got that into town. No fuss. As I suspected, an 11 was parked down the lower kilmacud road having clearly broken down.

Seems to me many in this thread would have stayed at the stop huffing and puffing for another 20 minutes muttering about how terrible DB is. Breakdowns happen. A driver due to start at 06:30 may call in sick and be unable to be replaced at such short notice. I don't know, seems to me you need to be realistic, be armed with a flexible travel card and a willingness to research the available options and sometimes walk 15 minutes to another location if one route is delayed.

The key point is that the improvement in reliability / options / information since I became a regular DB user in 2001 is extraordinary. Predictable progress year on year on year. I honestly don't give two ****s what the bus service is like in Berlin or whererver. The one we have is good enough imo.

end of the road · 06-03-2015 03:47PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

79a

always found that route reliable. almost always took it over what was at the time the 78a. i think its a longer route but funnily enough i found it quicker

MrMorooka · 06-03-2015 04:10PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Looking at the App I could see that there wasn't a bus due for another 20 mins meaning the 07:20 was probably cancelled.

That's not really particularly obvious though- it is just as likely there was a problem with the RTPI, or that the driver hadn't signed in yet, etc.

The other night, I surmised from missing RTPI info that a particular bus(1930 no70 from the city centre) had been cancelled, just as you did. As it happened, the bus appeared at the timetabled time anyway- for whatever reason it wasn't on RTPI for the stop I was at.

There is huge scope for more information to be provided. Rather than having people making assumptions based on RTPI, why can't the app have announcements? And display these announcements at the RTPI poles. In your case, obviously the controller for the route knew about the breakdown and the impact it would have- why is there no way to efficiently get that local knowledge out there to potential passengers?

I agree DB has improved immensely over the last few years- I can't imagine going back to how it was. But there is still a lot more that can be done, mainly around journey time(which is atrocious due to a multitude of factors and requires a multi-agency solution) and passenger information(which is the best it ever has been, but still doesn't cope well with the unexpected).

punisher5112 · 06-03-2015 04:10PM

A lot could be changed with the service.
Fully agree but a lot can be done to improve things as a passenger.

Give a few examples

Que up properly, have leap card out/money/travel pass.
Get on as quick as you can and get a seat and try leave room on aisle.

If you have a buggy be prepared to fold it if 1 is onboard already or a wheelchair is on.
Don't wait for everyone to get on after seeing the space is taken and then try and get on without folding even when you have already seen space is gone.

Don't be disrespectful to staff or others onboard by doing things like nail varnish, eating horrible stinking food which isn't permitted anyway, talking loudly on phone, playing music through speaker and loud headphones.

Don't leave dirty tissue and chewing gum on seats,
Don't leave bottles to roll around especially filled with urine, cans etc.

I can totally understand why in some circumstances people would rather walk,cycle or drive rather then put up with above going ons.

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2015 04:24PM

MrMorooka wrote: »

That's not really particularly obvious though- it is just as likely there was a problem with the RTPI, or that the driver hadn't signed in yet, etc.

The other night, I surmised from missing RTPI info that a particular bus(1930 no70 from the city centre) had been cancelled, just as you did. As it happened, the bus appeared at the timetabled time anyway- for whatever reason it wasn't on RTPI for the stop I was at.

There is huge scope for more information to be provided. Rather than having people making assumptions based on RTPI, why can't the app have announcements? And display these announcements at the RTPI poles. In your case, obviously the controller for the route knew about the breakdown and the impact it would have- why is there no way to efficiently get that local knowledge out there to potential passengers?

I agree DB has improved immensely over the last few years- I can't imagine going back to how it was. But there is still a lot more that can be done, mainly around journey time(which is atrocious due to a multitude of factors and requires a multi-agency solution) and passenger information(which is the best it ever has been, but still doesn't cope well with the unexpected).

I certainly agree that the RTPI display could be improved. A status for each bus or route is probably where it needs to go next, and finding a way to break the link of driver sign in to information supply. If a bus has been cancelled or broken down let us all know!!

No doubt it will get there though.

Aard · 06-03-2015 04:40PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Checked the App, saw there was a bus within 5 mins going the other way. Crossed the road, hopped on down to the LUAS stop at Stillorgan and got that into town. No fuss.

You're right that you have to be pragmatic with public transport. There are many variables that are outside of any central control. However, at the same time not everybody will be able to respond in the same way. In the above example, you'd firstly need a phone with data and to have downloaded the DB app. If you've a DB monthly/annual card then the Luas trip is an extra expense. And it's only OK if the destination is around Stephen's Green. It worked for you, but it might not work for most.

The main problem arises, however, not in the single instance but when unreliability occurs over time. If you're late to work a few times due to the bus, you're gonna make changes. For a lot of people, the changes won't be to wake up earlier for the same unreliable (in their eyes) service, nor would it be to invest in a bike and cycle, but instead to take the car that is likely in the driveway. At that point, you've lost that person as a public tranport customer for at least a decade.

LuckyLloyd · 06-03-2015 05:17PM

Aard wrote: »

You're right that you have to be pragmatic with public transport. There are many variables that are outside of any central control. However, at the same time not everybody will be able to respond in the same way. In the above example, you'd firstly need a phone with data and to have downloaded the DB app. If you've a DB monthly/annual card then the Luas trip is an extra expense. And it's only OK if the destination is around Stephen's Green. It worked for you, but it might not work for most.

The main problem arises, however, not in the single instance but when unreliability occurs over time. If you're late to work a few times due to the bus, you're gonna make changes. For a lot of people, the changes won't be to wake up earlier for the same unreliable (in their eyes) service, nor would it be to invest in a bike and cycle, but instead to take the car that is likely in the driveway. At that point, you've lost that person as a public tranport customer for at least a decade.

Are people never late to work in a car due to traffic? Commuting is one of life's evils, only rendered unnecessary if one has the resources to choose one or both of their workplace and residence. If the following things hold true:

- the car is more reliable for a particular commuter than public transport;
- they are able and willing to pay the additional per annum cost to run a car over purchasing an annual travel card;

Then let them take the car.

An Annual Bus / LUAS card is substantially cheaper than running a car when all things are considered (insurance / tax / gas / depreciation). But the service offered by a public transport will inevitably be less flexible than that available to you in your own personal motorised transport.

Being later than you like happens to everyone from time to time. You suck it up and work the other end of the day to make up for it. If you live in Goatstown and are choosing the 11 as your commuting method on a daily basis well you need to get up early and travel off peak. And in my opinion, you should be leaving yourself the flexibility to walk a few minutes and hop on a LUAS if needs be. Bear in mind that the route down the Clonskeagh road and through Ranelagh into town is a standstill in a car past 07:30 every morning too.

Research and choices. If you decide to be a phoneless cash customer of public transport and wish to try and commute on a medium frequency bus route via a choked rush hour artery during peak commuting times...you've lost the right to complain imo.

Dyr · 06-03-2015 07:09PM

Another day of network direct busses late and buncheed together, busses too full to allow customers on , some things never change until you introduce competition

end of the road · 06-03-2015 07:30PM

Bambi wrote: »

Another day of network direct busses late and buncheed together, busses too full to allow customers on , some things never change until you introduce competition

what "competition" . "competition" isn't going to change bunching busses. more bus lanes, more bus priority, and enforcement is about all that might.

Dyr · 06-03-2015 08:03PM

end of the road wrote: »

what "competition" . "competition" isn't going to change bunching busses. more bus lanes, more bus priority, and enforcement is about all that might.

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses. I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc. So not all bad news for dublin bus when it comes to lack of enforcement eh?

It would be interesting to compare what dublin bus services are like through areas that are serviced by the luas and dart as opposed to areas that have to rely solely on dublin bus

end of the road · 06-03-2015 08:22PM

Bambi wrote: »

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

and being the only show in town on a route tendered out or not is whats going to happen most likely.

Bambi wrote: »

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses.

not necessarily.

Bambi wrote: »

I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

duly delivered, or duly delivered the irish way, a half arsed measure?

Bambi wrote: »

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc.

did you report this?

cdebru · 06-03-2015 10:39PM

Bambi wrote: »

Being the only show in town breeds poor customer service, sad truth

A bus company that saw the obvious flaws in those network direct plans would do a lot of for bunching busses. I've heard this cry over and over from dublin bus emplyees "shure tis not out fault,we need XYZ and ABC" and even when XYZ and ABC are duly delivered the service remains sub par.

While we're on the subject of enforcement, saw a 40 cutting straight through a red light at a busy pedestrian crossing a few hours ago, fairly regular occurrence at numerous junctions in the city centre, nassau street, pearse street etc. So not all bad news for dublin bus when it comes to lack of enforcement eh?

It would be interesting to compare what dublin bus services are like through areas that are serviced by the luas and dart as opposed to areas that have to rely solely on dublin bus

Hmmm might be good to look at the proposed tendering arrangements, the "bus company" won't have any say over where the buses go they will just be paid on a kilometre driven basis no difference how many if any passengers do or don't use the service they will be paid to provide.

As for network direct, it was Dublin bus drivers that were here pointing out the faults in network direct and particularly that cross citying routes would make them unreliable and unpredictable, whule the usual experts here were cheer leading how great cross city services would be, drivers were also pointing out that the whole thing was based on a falsehood that the same level of service could be delivered with less buses, as the country has started to emerge from the prolonged downturn, it has just shown what was true 5 years ago.

Where has xyz or ABC been delivered ?

In what respect do you want to compare services ? Do the buses going out to tallaght not run late, get stuck in traffic , break down, have their windows smashed because the Luas runs out to tallaght as well ?? No it is completely different Dublin Bus manages to avoid all those things and have built secret tunnels to tallaght to avoid the traffic, and the drivers all wear tuxedos and dickie bows and call everyone sir or madame, and they all get to travel for child fares.

bk · 08-03-2015 09:12AM

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

_Kaiser_ · 08-03-2015 03:19PM

bk wrote: »

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

.. and that's pretty much it IMO

Before there was an NTA, or Celtic Tiger, or cars everywhere, LUAS lines or limited competition from other services, Dublin Bus (and CIE in general) has always been terrible to mediocre at best and the responsibility for that lies solely with the company and its employees.

Providing public transport isn't rocket science - there's any number of examples and experiences to draw and learn from, yet DB continues to lag behind and are still not providing the comprehensive service that the city needs.. as I said before, it's absolute nonsense that in 2015 we still don't have an all-night regular bus service as but one example.

CIE had their chance and they blew it.. time for them to make way (and be forced to do so!) for someone who can do the job they had decades to get right and didn't!

punisher5112 · 08-03-2015 05:09PM

Absolutely no need for an all night bus service as we are such a small island.

Taxi took away business from nitelinks so the ceased there us during weekdays.

DB has its problems and lots can be changed but we need better roads and priority bus only sections and light control systems.

Bus takes way to long to clear junctions and sit in traffic all around city and surrounding areas.

Putting in a tiny stretch of bus lane doesn't work and the contra flow sections which are for buses on route only have taxis, cars, coaches in them all the time.

Passenger education is a priority I believe should be introduced as they in a lot of cases seem to take absolutely no responsibility and I am quite surprized at how they are able to dress themselves.

Dwell times are attrocious at stops and needs to be looked at even with Leap card it taked way too long and the machines are so slow.

ShakerMaker91 · 08-03-2015 05:13PM

ye Dubs should be grateful ye even have a bus service we have ZERO public transport links around our area currently

end of the road · 08-03-2015 09:00PM

bk wrote: »

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go

no . would be a waste of time seeing as its the NTA making all the decisians.

bk wrote: »

it really can't be any worse.

well, if it can't be any worse, then that is proof there is no point in removing a public bus service from a public company.

bk wrote: »

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

and a private monopoly would be better? no thanks. we aren't rewarding anything. frankly i'd rather a mediocre public monopoly then a private one that "shur couldn't do any worse" . the NTA makes all the decisians, tendering isn't going to change anything, the NTA'S decisians might.

end of the road · 08-03-2015 09:05PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

it's absolute nonsense that in 2015 we still don't have an all-night regular bus service

i agree. but who is paying for it

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

CIE had their chance and they blew it..

they didn't. public owned company for public bus service

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

time for them to make way

for who? private companies? no thanks. not time for them to make way at all as its their bus service. public bus company for a public service. if private companies want to run dublin services they run along side dublin bus and survive on their own merits as a luxury extra.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

(and be forced to do so!)

any attempt to force them to do so should be met with a fearce responce. i will be backing them all the way whatever they do to stop themselves being forced out.

LuckyLloyd · 09-03-2015 09:56AM

bk wrote: »

For 30 years Dublin Bus has been delivering a terrible bus service to Dublin. Many, if not most of the problems of Dublin Bus have been created by themselves 30 years ago and they have no one but themselves to blame.

It is clear that DB aren't willing to change, so Dublins city bus services should be ripped out of their hands and given to another company to give it a go, it really can't be any worse.

We shouldn't be rewarding such mediocre performance with a monopoly.

I use it every day. It isn't terrible.

The change in the end service to the customer since 2001 is extraordinary and a regular user can see the improvements year on year on year.

bk · 09-03-2015 12:17PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I use it every day. It isn't terrible.

The change in the end service to the customer since 2001 is extraordinary and a regular user can see the improvements year on year on year.

LuckyLloyd, have you ever used city bus services in other European cities? For instance London or Poland (e.g. Krakow, same population size as Dublin)

DB are ok, they eventually get you there, but they really aren't a patch on what is the norm in modern European cities.

Want to get a bus after 11:30 in Dublin? Tough, get a taxi. Most Eureopean cities have full, normal 24 hour bus services.

Also DB takes almost twice the time to cover the same distance due to the dreadful dwell time compared to most other European cities.

If you never travelled widely on city bus services in other european cities, then you might not have realised how poor DB is in comparison.

You might have seen some minor improvements over the last few years, but they are still way behind what you would expect for a modern European capital city and that is simply unacceptable.

devnull · 09-03-2015 12:26PM

A lot of the improvements in recent years are down to better regulation and the creation of the NTA as well who have taken a much more hand son approach to developing the cities transport.

Dublin Bus have also improved, but a good part od that is down to the fact now they are more properly held to accoun and have less light touch regulation.

I don't think Dublin Bus is terrible, just very average, in the last 2-3 years especially things have improved for sure, but they're a long way from being excellent.

end of the road · 09-03-2015 01:39PM

bk wrote: »

LuckyLloyd, have you ever used city bus services in other European cities? For instance London or Poland (e.g. Krakow, same population size as Dublin)

yes, i've used londons bus services. yeah they have lots of helpful bells and whistles but i won't die without them. and the service is payed for in full.

bk wrote: »

DB are ok, they eventually get you there, but they really aren't a patch on what is the norm in modern European cities.

well, maybe dublin isn't like other european cities. for a start making dublin public transport friendly has been difficult at best. also the busses being socially necessary, they have to serve as many places as possible on certain routes, large amounts of traffic with not enough bus lanes and i doubt any bus priority, dwell times due to various reasons, makes travel time longer.

bk wrote: »

Want to get a bus after 11:30 in Dublin? Tough, get a taxi.

yes, but who is funding such a bus service if its to be implemented? i'd like to see it implemented but unless someone wishes to fund it its not happening.

bk wrote: »

Most Eureopean cities have full, normal 24 hour bus services.

thats because they are payed for and funded in full.

bk wrote: »

Also DB takes almost twice the time to cover the same distance due to the dreadful dwell time compared to most other European cities.

while its a bit annoying, thats how our system works for various reasons.

bk wrote: »

If you never travelled widely on city bus services in other european cities, then you might not have realised how poor DB is in comparison.

they aren't that poor. improvements have happened and they will happen, but dublins bus service needs to be matched to dublins situation. all well and good going on about other european cities but they have a very different set up to us in terms of everything.

bk wrote: »

You might have seen some minor improvements over the last few years, but they are still way behind what you would expect for a modern European capital city

well, maybe dublin is different to other cities. instead of trying and probably failing to implement a european model, how about coming up with our own ideas for once, and implement a bus service that matches dublins requirements.

bk wrote: »

that is simply unacceptable.

well, you want european style transport, lobby the government to pay for it. i would even join you

Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

Comments