Junior cert dispute between Unions and Dept of Education

Farmer Pudsey · 03-03-2015 01:19PM #1

Is the present dispute a step too far by teachers. In reality they seem to be disputing the right of society to make changes to the Education system. Should the government just implement there policy objectives and if teaching staff refuse deal with it down the line as breach of contract.

Is this tantamount to the PS refusing to implement government policy. Would it be allowable for ordinary Guards to refuse to implement say traffic enforcment policy, or health staff to refuse to say collect charges imposed by government or revenue to collect maybe a new tax. IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

I wonder if they did how much support the TUI and ASTI would get and even if they did who would blink first. I also thisnk it is a very bad advertisment for Unions where they now consider that they have the final say on education policy.

BoJack Horseman · 03-03-2015 01:32PM

Its always been ever thus.

Reform can't happen without vested interest sign-off, at which point its no longer reform.

TheBody · 03-03-2015 01:36PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Is the present dispute a step too far by teachers. In reality they seem to be disputing the right of society to make changes to the Education system. Should the government just implement there policy objectives and if teaching staff refuse deal with it down the line as breach of contract.

Is this tantamount to the PS refusing to implement government policy. Would it be allowable for ordinary Guards to refuse to implement say traffic enforcment policy, or health staff to refuse to say collect charges imposed by government or revenue to collect maybe a new tax. IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

I wonder if they did how much support the TUI and ASTI would get and even if they did who would blink first. I also thisnk it is a very bad advertisment for Unions where they now consider that they have the final say on education policy.

Do you understand the reasons for the dispute?

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

In this instance, I support the unions.

Rightwing · 03-03-2015 01:55PM

I'm not sure what this has to do with Ir economy.

I think I would side with the Govt on this one. Saves money if little else.

Paulzx · 03-03-2015 08:09PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

IMO they have crossed the rubicon and government should now just implement the new education policy.

Ehhh.........there's a fairly obvious problem with doing that. The people they expect to carry out the actual reforms won't do it.

Jan O Sullivan can talk tough (to me she's made a huge strategic mistake) all she wants but there is no actual physical way of forcing this through without cooperation......unless she's going to somehow sit in and teach in thousands of classrooms herself.

andrew · 03-03-2015 08:15PM

TheBody wrote: »

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

Do they have to do that? Are they allowed to do a swap with a local school, or even another teacher who teaches the same subject?

In any case, isn't telling intrusive parents to feck off not part of a teacher's job?

Icepick · 03-03-2015 09:00PM

TheBody wrote: »

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

If they can't stand over their work, they are in the wrong job.

TheBody · 03-03-2015 09:24PM

Icepick wrote: »

If they can't stand over their work, they are in the wrong job.

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

hfallada · 04-03-2015 12:39AM

TheBody wrote: »

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

The leaving cert in Germany is actually graded within in the school by the teachers of the students. They also used to get yearly exams to map progress of students. Also corrected by guess who? The teachers of the students. But no one complained about it

I dont get your point at all. When a child goes to third level, their papers will be corrected by the lecturer. I doubt the lecturers of UCD and DIT are getting calls from parents over their son not getting a 2.1 in their summer exams.

Unions dont give a **** about the students and rightly so. The unions job is to protect the interest of their members. But at some stage unions are going to have to stand up and say what they really want for their members. Which I imagine is more money

RGS · 04-03-2015 12:47AM

andrew wrote: »

Do they have to do that? Are they allowed to do a swap with a local school, or even another teacher who teaches the same subject?

No they cant swap with another school, the department want teachers to assess their own pupils for state exam certification. This is not an appropriate way to run a state examination.

yellowlabrador · 04-03-2015 12:57AM

maybe it's time to cancel that particular state examination? It's after all a left over from the days when children didn't stay in school till 18. We had a similar certificate in Belgium where I went to school. I was a bit of a rebel and signed mine with purple ink. my headmistress went bananas and said I'd never get a job and I was ruined for life. Can you guess how often I've needed to present it at an interview? Yearly exams, corrected by the teachers make more sense.I'd even get the teachers to compose the questions.

robp · 04-03-2015 12:02PM

hfallada wrote: »

The leaving cert in Germany is actually graded within in the school by the teachers of the students. They also used to get yearly exams to map progress of students. Also corrected by guess who? The teachers of the students. But no one complained about it

Do you have any evidence at all this approach matches objectivity in the Irish system? Its not just about parents complaining. A lot of bias is subconscious. A troublesome pupil might earn a lower mark then deserves.

hfallada wrote: »

I dont get your point at all. When a child goes to third level, their papers will be corrected by the lecturer. I doubt the lecturers of UCD and DIT are getting calls from parents over their son not getting a 2.1 in their summer exams.

Marking in third level is far less transparent and there is no reason to assume it is as fair as second level. When I went through the university system I experienced lecturers who told me they had never failed a student. That goes to show in some departments it is not an exemplary system.

There is a major effort in making the marking blind but I think there are many situations where full objectivity is absent. Yet generally speaking third level is too specialized to have the approach used in second level.

BoJack Horseman · 04-03-2015 12:20PM

I'm pretty sure my JC was also marked in house....(late 90's)
The world kept turning somehow.

Farmer Pudsey · 04-03-2015 12:43PM

The junior cert is an exam of little importance now. it is mainly used for streaming of students for the Leaving Certificate. The sate wants to move away from a completely one finalexam based system to mixture of project/assessments and exam system. Most schools hold exams through out the year so this is just formalising this structure.

It would be impossible to completely outside mark under this structure. Yes you will have parents that disagree with marks however buffers could be put in place to prevent such issue. An appeals process, independant cross checking would also be taking place to verify structure and system equality.

The reality is that if you work in any well paid job nowadays you will have people that challange you so this excuse is invalid. The real issue however is the complete challenge to a policy change by a vested interest. As I posted in my opening post would it be acceptable for guards to refuse to implement traffic law or the revenue to collect a new tax.

The other issue is that in other countries this is practiced and even if it was not there is nothing wrong with being first. However I think the real reason is some teachers are looking at this as a leaver to look at pay issue's. It is also unfair on those students that need to sit exams this summers that there study will be interrupted by teacher's action's.

Icepick · 04-03-2015 01:55PM

TheBody wrote: »

That's not what I am saying.

Some parents have blinkered notions of their childs ability. So when a teacher may correctly award say "C" for some subject, the parent goes bananas and blames the teacher for grading too hard rather than looking at their child.

It'll be a disaster if it goes ahead.

Back to my previous point then - look for a different job if you can't do this one.

Should the guards not go after criminals because they go bananas and blame them for arresting them?

yellowlabrador · 04-03-2015 02:59PM

Can we do a straw poll and find out how many people have had to present their junior cert at any occasion?

andrew · 04-03-2015 03:07PM

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Can we do a straw poll and find out how many people have had to present their junior cert at any occasion?

Just because the results of the JC aren’t used by employers doesn’t mean the exam isn’t useful. If exams in general were only useful to the extent that their result is used by employers, then the only useful exam anyone does is the Leaving Cert, and College exams.

The JC is a dry run of the LC. It gives students a good idea of what it’s like to have to study for a few weeks/months in advance of an exam and what it’s like to have to know by heart a lot of information. It gives them an experience of a formal exam situation, exam technique, and the kind of pressure and stress you face during a week or two of long exams. The results are a useful benchmark for how you’re doing, whether your study habits are OK, what you need to work on, which subjects you’re particularly good at, etc. etc.

That said, I recall being asked for my JC results while applying for a job (probably in a bank) a few years ago.

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-03-2015 09:24PM

TheBody wrote: »

Do you understand the reasons for the dispute?

The teachers don't want to grade their own students. Teachers will be persuced with Mammy and Daddy complaining about results given to their little darling. It would be a disaster.

In this instance, I support the unions.

But its the teachers job to teach. Not to administrate the education system. They should just get on with their jobs as their employer decide they should do it best.
The usual cant when they are simply resisting change or want to engineer a pay or condition improvement for themselves is to say how they are only striking out of concern for the standards of education and their student. Really ? Pull the other one.
Just get on with yisser jobs.

gaiscioch · 04-03-2015 10:27PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

But its the teachers job to teach. Not to administrate the education system.

Precisely, which is why they shouldn't be engaged in administrative tasks outside of teaching, like marking state exams or, for that matter, sitting around in rooms for 33 hours extra per year talking nonsense under the guise of "Croke Park hours" and the Haddington Road Agreement. There is absolutely nothing to do with the passionate, inspirational vocation of teaching in that stultifying administrative nonsense. This is all being driven by cost saving, and the Department of Education is simply attempting to replicate the yellow pack, bureaucracy-suffocated English education system in Ireland. That culture is alien to the deeply-rewarding profession of teaching where opening worlds of knowledge and new thinking to kids is at the very centre of a teacher's profession.

andrew · 04-03-2015 10:32PM

gaiscioch wrote: »

Precisely, which is why they shouldn't be engaged in administrative tasks outside of teaching, like marking state exams

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

gaiscioch · 04-03-2015 10:47PM

andrew wrote: »

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

Yes, *some* teachers volunteer (for payment) to mark the state exams but not to mark their own students in the state exams. Correcting their students is, as you say, a part of a teacher's job. The purpose of this is to help students improve their ideas and understanding via critical engagement with the ideas from classes. As such the feedback of such assessments are an important part of teaching. However, the correction of terminal exams like the JC serves no such role. Indeed, such terminal exams as the existing JC, for all its faults, serve to act as an impartial assessment of not only the student but of the teacher. As such, for the sake of quality of learning and statewide consistency it is in the interests of society to ensure such a distinct separation between the teaching process and the terminal assessment of that process continues.

byhookorbycrook · 04-03-2015 10:52PM

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.

What about part time teachers or those in fee paying schools?They will be under pressure to provide "results", even when the result is not a proper one. Friends of mine taught in the Middle East and they weren't long about being told by the schools that Sheik X's son ALWAYS gets an A.

Paulzx · 05-03-2015 12:32AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.

.

Exactly. Project work isn't new. Many moons ago when I did Engineering for my leaving cert we had to submit projects which we had the year to manufacture. The were marked independantly by outside examiners. However, it was quite apparent which projects were made by "professionals" rather than the students yet they were still accepted as projects to be graded

nice_guy80 · 05-03-2015 06:30PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The other big issue is that project work for certification purposes will mean parents doing the work or paying a grind tutor to do it.
.

parents have done that for years

evolving_doors · 05-03-2015 07:11PM

andrew wrote: »

Isn't it teachers who currently mark state exams? Isn't marking exams a fundamental part of a teacher's job, in the same way that exams are a fundamental part of a person's education (for better or for worse).

Consider this though... when I go to pick up 500 scripts this summer (about €7 per script before tax etc). They are all anonymous. Generally the supervising examiner knows the stats and how it should conform to 'the curve'..

Can you apply this same curve to 15 students!
No.. therefore no standardisation.

Is it the intention to have moderators for every teacher/subject? (sounds expensive!).

Is it the intention of this govt to publish school results? Yes (hello ghettoisation)

Is the intention of this govt. (or people of influence within the dept.) to pay by results?
Yes.

Is it the intention to save money? Yes (this has been shown in confidential govt. documentation.

Compare the 'phasing in' of the new english JC course with the extensive phasing in of project maths... ask any english teacher who went to the 1 day inservice and came away more confused.

Why are we following the failed system that the UK are turning away from.

The teaching profession is almost dead as it is. 40% of teacher's in ETB's on part time hours. Pension changed to career average (not much good if ten years is part time crumbs). Time for planning in school's is gone (Im starting my planning for the next few lessons tonight at 8 ... then its study for a course Im undertaking myself).

Cry me a river you say... but ask the question when is all this extra work meant to be done? School time! you must be kidding. Sure , nobody owes me a living but in terms of future teachers, theyd want to be crazy to consider it. 50% of teachers in the UK leave after the first ten years, despite reasonably good pay and security of tenure. The way things are now I know quite a few maths classes who are on their 3rd teacher this year.. how is that good? And this is only going to get worse with JCSA

But leave it to the all mighty pundits like Ed' Walshe and Eddie Hobbes who are the experts in... rabble rousing.

The all new JSCA is only part of a very bigger picture. Its aping the UK system, pure and simple. This is the way myself and the majority of my colleagues see it.

Eugene Norman · 05-03-2015 07:49PM

The teachers are right on this one. It's not broken don't fix it.

evolving_doors · 05-03-2015 08:02PM

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The teachers are right on this one. It's not broken don't fix it.

I agree, don't get me wrong either, I'm not against continuous assessment either (which is the line being thrown out). All teachers I know continuously assess their students class after class in whatever form works best for the students. It is a process of refining and borrowing ideas from fellow teachers to engage with students, but foisting stuff borrowed from theoretical studies of other countries on all teachers is wrong.

But continuous assessment for state certification then it can only end badly. Namely a box ticking exercise.

Rote learning has its place to a certain extent too btw.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-03-2015 12:40AM

Someone, whose job it is to decide such things, has decided that it is OK for teachers to grade their own students. I dont know whether they are correct in that conclusion or not. But they are the ones charged with analysing and reaching a decision. Teachers unions are not. Their view on the matter is no more relevant than mine. If they had any professional integrity they would get on with implementing the education policy, and not be getting involved in decions that are not theirs to make.

FreudianSlippers · 06-03-2015 10:12AM

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

Eugene Norman · 06-03-2015 10:47AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

Most successful countries have exams as far as I can see.

evolving_doors · 06-03-2015 10:56AM

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

If teachers aren't intelligent and strong enough not to be bullied/biased into giving their students better marks then I already think we have a doomed generation.

It seems to work everywhere else in the world? What's wrong with our snivelling teachers? Or maybe this is just all rehearsal for the political aspirations that all teachers seem to have :rolleyes:

You're 'argument' position must be fairly weak if you have to resort to pathetic generalisations.
'snivelling teachers'!

'All teachers seem to have political aspirations!' ..
I think you may be referring to a few politicians who were a wet weekend in a school back in the 1970's.

Its also telling that you rolleyes at your own statement.

So thats that then?

Junior cert dispute between Unions and Dept of Education

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