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Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

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Comments

  • #362
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    Oh that's already my comprehension of what Alek said. I just don't accept the leap of logic that arrives at such a conclusion.

    "Roughly" ain't enough in my book. If an SG has more floor area than a GT or VG especially, how can it be described as having lower capacity? This is the point ive been making consistently, a removal of seats between buses of comparable chassis and bodywork does not nessarily translate into a loss of capacity.

    Well would you accept this an AV or AX can hold up to 91 people including 15 standing passengers an SG can hold 81 or 83 passengers 81 with a wheelchair and 83 without that is 16 to 19 standing passengers, you seem to have been under the impression that an SG holds 27, it doesn't unless the one I just stepped off is an aberration its plate states 81 or 83. So over the AVs that are being withdrawn there is a capacity reduction of 8 to 10 passengers per bus. What Alek said is correct even if you can fit 19 standing passengers it is still a lower capacity than an AV or AX.

    PS a VG can apparently carry 88 or 87 passengers so a reduction on that bus as well of between 4 and 7 passengers per bus


  • #363
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    cdebru wrote: »
    Well would you accept this an AV or AX can hold up to 91 people including 15 standing passengers an SG can hold 81 or 83 passengers 81 with a wheelchair and 83 without that is 16 to 19 standing passengers, you seem to have been under the impression that an SG holds 27, it doesn't unless the one I just stepped off is an aberration its plate states 81 or 83. So over the AVs that are being withdrawn there is a capacity reduction of 8 to 10 passengers per bus. What Alek said is correct even if you can fit 19 standing passengers it is still a lower capacity than an AV or AX.

    PS a VG can apparently carry 88 or 87 passengers so a reduction on that bus as well of between 4 and 7 passengers per bus
    I saw it with my own eyes, it stated 27 passengers, perhaps 28 without a wheelchair but I'm not sure. I already posted that I checked an SG bus during this discussion and I cited this number originally from http://www.dublinbus.cc/ so perhaps you can show a photograph or an alternative source backing up your claim, like I have done?

    Also, what matters is how many more people can stand on an SG than previous buses (like the VG and GT) compared to how many seats have been removed. I don't believe that only 4 more people can stand in an AX compared to an SG, it's unbelievable from even a casual comparison. In the case of crowding on the 4, it seems unfair to blame the SGs if they in fact carry more people than the GTs.


  • #364
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I saw it with my own eyes, it stated 27 passengers, perhaps 28 without a wheelchair but I'm not sure. I already posted that I checked an SG bus during this discussion and I cited this number originally from http://www.dublinbus.cc/ so perhaps you can show a photograph or an alternative source backing up your claim, like I have done?

    Also, what matters is how many more people can stand on an SG than previous buses (like the VG and GT) compared to how many seats have been removed. I don't believe that only 4 more people can stand in an AX compared to an SG, it's unbelievable from even a casual comparison. In the case of crowding on the 4, it seems unfair to blame the SGs if they in fact carry more people than the GTs.

    The only buses DB operates that have standing capacity for 27 people are the first batch of VTs that is VT 1 to 20, SGs have the exact same capacity as GTs. VTs are triaxle buses are longer and have a higher capacity


  • #365
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    cdebru wrote: »
    The only buses DB operates that have standing capacity for 27 people are the first batch of VTs that is VT 1 to 20, SGs have the exact same capacity as GTs. VTs are triaxle buses are longer and have a higher capacity
    I don't know how to explain this contradiction. I will check again later and post photographs to show this. For what it's worth, I checked a 4 on O'Connell St going northbound on Monday evening. Also, where did dublinbuses.cc get their figures from?


  • #366
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I don't know how to explain this contradiction. I will check again later and post photographs to show this. For what it's worth, I checked a 4 on O'Connell St going northbound on Monday evening. Also, where did dublinbuses.cc get their figures from?


    No problem the only explanation I can see is that somehow DB have some SGs going around with the wrong capacity plate on them or there are two distinctly different class of SGs which no one else knew about or you made a mistake, I wouldn't be so unkind as to say you were being deliberately misleading, but you might consider an auld apology to Alek in order. He wasn't misleading anyone or using red herrings there is a big capacity difference between the SG/GT buses and the buses they are replacing of between 8 and 10 passengers per bus, if you take that over the 240 odd buses that's a peak service capacity reduction of up to 2400 passenger places each journey these buses make.
    Given the NTA instruction that these buses were to be used on specific routes, then the reduction in capacity has also been concentrated on these routes, if you take a route with a 10 minute peak service that is up to 60 passengers an hour less that can be carried, that's basically a full bus load.
    So what Alek was saying is completely true these 20 buses are only really bringing the capacity back up to where it was.

    How you and Dublinbus.cc both have 27 as the figure for standees I have no idea, maybe they made a mistake who knows. But if you can find the SG with the 27 standees plate on it, that would be very interesting.


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  • #367
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    As I said I will look again. It was a Harristown SG.

    But the above still doesn't address what I am saying. Please read what i have been writing again. If there is more space for standees on an SG than a GT or VG, then replacing GTs on a route with SGs does not necessarily mean that there is a loss of total capacity and to say otherwise is I have to say misleading. An apology would not be in order as far as I'm concerned. Unless...

    What I am much more interested in is the legal position of there being a max 8 standees. It looks like that is the current legal position and that would completely knock my point on its head and Aleksmart would be 100% right. Any double decker can hold 8 pax and a new bus that has more space for standees at the expense of seats would need good reasons to justify.


  • #368
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 12,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Generally people in Ireland and the UK seem to absolutely hate standing on buses. Many would even consider a bus to be "full and overcrowded" if there were no seats left even if nobody is standing.

    Of all the other European countries I have been to, nobody is really bothered to the extent that people are in the UK and Ireland and people are standing much tighter together than they are on a Dublin Bus even with a full number of standees.

    So lucernarian you will never win your argument because the simple fact is people do not like standing here so are never going to accept losing seats and extra standing room, even if the capacity is the same overall.


  • #369
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    On a bus trip of under 15 minutes I'd prefer to stand than sit more times than not. I can't be the only one.


  • #370
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    As I said I will look again. It was a Harristown SG.

    But the above still doesn't address what I am saying. Please read what i have been writing again. If there is more space for standees on an SG than a GT or VG, then replacing GTs on a route with SGs does not necessarily mean that there is a loss of total capacity and to say otherwise is I have to say misleading. An apology would not be in order as far as I'm concerned. Unless...

    What I am much more interested in is the legal position of there being a max 8 standees. It looks like that is the current legal position and that would completely knock my point on its head and Aleksmart would be 100% right. Any double decker can hold 8 pax and a new bus that has more space for standees at the expense of seats would need good reasons to justify.

    Read again an SG has the exact same space for seats and standing as a GT, and a VG can carry more passengers than both of them, what is clear is that you have no idea what you are talking about, SGs are not replacing either GTs or VGs they are replacing the AVs which have a capacity of 91.
    There is a loss of capacity in the region of 10% in the 240 odd buses replaced so far.

    Now quit clutching at straws regarding the 8 standing, as I posted yesterday the 2014 road traffic act gives the Minister the power to draw up any regulations he likes in regards to calculation of bus occupancy for both seats and standing.


  • #371
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    cdebru wrote: »
    Read again an SG has the exact same space for seats and standing as a GT, and a VG can carry more passengers than both of them, what is clear is that you have no idea what you are talking about, SGs are not replacing either GTs or VGs they are replacing the AVs which have a capacity of 91.
    There is a loss of capacity in the region of 10% in the 240 odd buses replaced so far.

    Now quit clutching at straws regarding the 8 standing, as I posted yesterday the 2014 road traffic act gives the Minister the power to draw up any regulations he likes in regards to calculation of bus occupancy for both seats and standing.
    I have read what you say but you still aren't appreciating that this discussion on the loss of capacity was brought up A) in the context of the new SG bus and where they are currently operating (seemingly for the most part on routes previousy operated by GTs. B) From looking up online and in all good faith, I checked boards and http://www.dublinbus.cc/sgs.html to confirm the different numbers. Dublin Bus are getting rid of AVs and they are buying new SGs. But so far they have replaced GTs in day to day operations on routes like the 4 and 140. That's not a defense of the SG design but based on the homework I did (and I maintain I checked an SG, taking photos of customer ankles as they are boarding a bus in the rain is not a good idea) I saw an increase on the GT and VG capacity with these new buses.

    I took Alexsmart's post here (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93747812&postcount=361) to mean that the 8 limit is what's in force and I reserved judgement on that until I send a couple of emails. There's no straw clutching going on. I didn't properly read your post outlining section 121 until now as I was mainly responding to Alexsmart at the time. That's my bad. You should also bring that up with the relevant poster as it was not my assertion in the first place...

    Although I am in the bizarre position of having double-checked something only to see photographic proof to the contrary, I'm sure you can make a point with more civility than "you have no clue about what you are talking about". It's only an internet forum and I'm just some words on a screen to anyone here. No one has explained to me yet how having fewer seats on an SG does not lead to more floor space and standing pax than on a GT or especially VG. The 8 pax limit seems to be irrelevant after all. And I cannot accept that people will choose missing their bus rather than being able to stand. Or even that they are ditching the bus in the long-term because of that factor to any significant extent. Public transport in this country can't really afford the luxury of eliminating any and all standing and with issues like the cost of tickets, the time it takes and the reliability of service all kinda scoring pretty highly with any Dublin Bus users I know. I explained way back that there were routes where standing would be more appropriate than others.


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  • #372
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    I have read what you say but you still aren't appreciating that this discussion on the loss of capacity was brought up A) in the context of the new SG bus and where they are currently operating (seemingly for the most part on routes previousy operated by GTs. B) From looking up online and in all good faith, I checked boards and http://www.dublinbus.cc/sgs.html to confirm the different numbers. Dublin Bus are getting rid of AVs and they are buying new SGs. But so far they have replaced GTs in day to day operations on routes like the 4 and 140. That's not a defense of the SG design but based on the homework I did (and I maintain I checked an SG, taking photos of customer ankles as they are boarding a bus in the rain is not a good idea) I saw an increase on the GT and VG capacity with these new buses.

    I took Alexsmart's post here (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93747812&postcount=361) to mean that the 8 limit is what's in force and I reserved judgement on that until I send a couple of emails. There's no straw clutching going on. I didn't properly read your post outlining section 121 until now as I was mainly responding to Alexsmart at the time. That's my bad. You should also bring that up with the relevant poster as it was not my assertion in the first place...

    Although I am in the bizarre position of having double-checked something only to see photographic proof to the contrary, I'm sure you can make a point with more civility than "you have no clue about what you are talking about". It's only an internet forum and I'm just some words on a screen to anyone here. No one has explained to me yet how having fewer seats on an SG does not lead to more floor space and standing pax than on a GT or especially VG. The 8 pax limit seems to be irrelevant after all. And I cannot accept that people will choose missing their bus rather than being able to stand. Or even that they are ditching the bus in the long-term because of that factor to any significant extent. Public transport in this country can't really afford the luxury of eliminating any and all standing and with issues like the cost of tickets, the time it takes and the reliability of service all kinda scoring pretty highly with any Dublin Bus users I know. I explained way back that there were routes where standing would be more appropriate than others.

    OK hopefully last time

    SG and GT = same
    Same number of seats same number of standees, no difference.

    SG and AV or AX or VG or EV has less seats, mainly to facilitate center doors, that is how it less seats but not more standing space because that space where the seats would be is now the door well and you can't have people standing in the door well so there is no gain standing wise from removing those seats. The benefit should be quicker loading unloading but unfortunately the NTA have failed to address the issue as to why center doors aren't used rather preferring the if you build it they will come model.

    So in summary we have the worst of both worlds buses with less capacity that dont benefit from the center doors its a lose lose unless the NTA get off their asses and address the stops issue


  • #373
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    cdebru wrote: »
    How you and Dublinbus.cc both have 27 as the figure for standees I have no idea, maybe they made a mistake who knows. But if you can find the SG with the 27 standees plate on it, that would be very interesting.

    The conflict is easily explained,and there is no mistake regarding the "Plated Capacities"...ie:up to 30 on the SG.

    It does involve having a rather technical appreciation of what these figures represent.

    It is the WEIGHT capacity,sometimes called Rated Axle Capacity of the Volvo axles/underframe.

    Given the vehicle in question is a BUS,this is expressed as Passengers.

    The Wrights Gemini3 bodied SG,to NTA specification is 650Kg Lighter than the Wrights Gemini 2 bodied GT.
    This 650Kg saving,thus represents a notional extra capacity of 10 Passengers (@ 65Kg per passenger ).

    It is an entirely theoretical figure and has no correlation whatever with floor-space.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #374
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The conflict is easily explained,and there is no mistake regarding the "Plated Capacities"...ie:up to 30 on the SG.

    It does involve having a rather technical appreciation of what these figures represent.

    It is the WEIGHT capacity,sometimes called Rated Axle Capacity of the Volvo axles/underframe.

    Given the vehicle in question is a BUS,this is expressed as Passengers.

    The Wrights Gemini3 bodied SG,to NTA specification is 650Kg Lighter than the Wrights Gemini 2 bodied GT.
    This 650Kg saving,thus represents a notional extra capacity of 10 Passengers (@ 65Kg per passenger ).

    It is an entirely theoretical figure and has no correlation whatever with floor-space.


    I posted a picture of the plate earlier it says 16 or 19 standing, and 64 or 67 seated, unless there is another plate somewhere on the bus that says 27 I haven't seen it, and would seem odd and confusing to post two conflicting passenger capacities.


  • #375
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    SG64 was on the 83 tonight advertising 27 standing passengers on the board inside the front door. Of course there's absolutely no hope of getting 27 on board, but still. The GTs advertise 16/19.

    It's a bit like lifts saying that a maximum load of 10 persons in a lift that is full with four. I would expect the NTA to take this 'ambitious' figure into account when purchasing a bus, but maybe they think it says 27 on paper so that's fine, go ahead with it.


  • #376
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    dfx- wrote: »
    SG64 was on the 83 tonight advertising 27 standing passengers on the board inside the front door. Of course there's absolutely no hope of getting 27 on board, but still. The GTs advertise 16/19.

    It's a bit like lifts saying that a maximum load of 10 persons in a lift that is full with four. I would expect the NTA to take this 'ambitious' figure into account when purchasing a bus, but maybe they think it says 27 on paper so that's fine, go ahead with it.

    I was on SG 10 yesterday its board said 16/19 exactly the same as a GT as per picture, so Dublin Bus have the exact same bus with two different standing capacities. So which is the legal standing capacity of an SG or does it depend on the plate even on identical buses? So is the ministerial regulation under the 2014 road traffic act purely based on weight? This just got even more ridiculous are the NTA trying to hide the capacity reduction by allowing a completely notional loading capacity? Did the regulations change during the delivery of the SGs so early ones have a lower limit ?


  • #377
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,825 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Might DB own a few of the Harristown batch - they did plan on buying some as far as I know - and that's the discrepancy?


  • #378
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    dfx- wrote: »
    Might DB own a few of the Harristown batch - they did plan on buying some as far as I know - and that's the discrepancy?

    The ones they were buying were for airlinks and wedding buses as far as I know, but even at that how can the same bus have two different legal capacities ?


  • #379
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,634 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Having been on a Harristown SG this morning, SG64, I can confirm that the plate does incredibly say 27 standees.

    Whatever the plate may say, that sort of number, or 21 on an EV (as I noted later on) is frankly pie in the sky. It is based on people being scrunched up together and not leaving space for people to board or make their egress from the bus.

    A realistic number of standees on any of the double deck models is in the region of 10-12.
    It is pointless arguing otherwise - you need to look at it practically. On buses where there are centre doors, the number of seats is less when compared with an AV/AX. That area is not suitable for standees - it is needed for people to exit the bus. So arguing that the space can be used is just not realistic. There is also an additional buggy space and more often than not that is used too, so standee space really isn't any more than it is at present.


  • #380
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Then one could argue that the gangway leading to the first door is also unsuited to standing within as people use that to exit too. If you are going to be fair about it then you would accept that the middle door area can and is used for standees every day.

    Anyway, I have a photo of SG60 working the 83 yesterday with the 27 standees plate. Will post when not on mobile. I don't know why anyone would imply i made the whole thing up or that I'm talking out of my behind. Why would I even try to? I won't be so unkind as to suggest that cdebru doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about as this is an unusual contradiction of who saw what. ;)

    And the plate number wasnt even that relevant after all if I go back to the main point. 27 might not fit but I'm pretty sure more than 12 can! how can greater standing space for passengers automatically translate into less capacity? I've seen anything from 8 to 19 in this thread for total standees. Now that the one official measure of this has been discredited, anyone who wants to show a loss of capacity should use some hard methodology to show this. Its been claimed that the NTA allowed 20 AVs back into service because of xyz% fewer seats on an SG. I just don't see any proof of this when its a flawed way to measure capacity. What I do see is a recovery in passenger numbers...

    Would having 2 simultaneous buggy users be encountered by GT and SG drivers on like the majority of journeys driven?


  • #381
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,634 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    lucernarian wrote: »
    Then one could argue that the gangway leading to the first door is also unsuited to standing within as people use that to exit too. If you are going to be fair about it then you would accept that the middle door area can and is used for standees every day.

    Anyway, I have a photo of SG60 working the 83 yesterday with the 27 standees plate. Will post when not on mobile. I don't know why anyone would imply i made the whole thing up or that I'm talking out of my behind. Why would I even try to? I won't be so unkind as to suggest that cdebru doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about as this is an unusual contradiction of who saw what. ;)

    And the plate number wasnt even that relevant after all if I go back to the main point. 27 might not fit but I'm pretty sure more than 12 can! how can greater standing space for passengers automatically translate into less capacity? I've seen anything from 8 to 19 in this thread for total standees. Now that the one official measure of this has been discredited, anyone who wants to show a loss of capacity should use some hard methodology to show this. Its been claimed that the NTA allowed 20 AVs back into service because of xyz% fewer seats on an SG. I just don't see any proof of this when its a flawed way to measure capacity. What I do see is a recovery in passenger numbers...

    Would having 2 simultaneous buggy users be encountered by GT and SG drivers on like the majority of journeys driven?

    No the centre door area should always be kept clear so that people can exit, if the both doors are being used at every stop. There is a difference between standing in the door area and in the passageways within the bus.

    With respect I've only quoted one number of standees throughout this thread and that's 10-12 because frankly that is practical. Theorising about higher numbers really is just that, theorising. I'm looking at it purely from a practical perspective of observing daily operations and human behaviour - people just do not scrunch up any more than is absolutely necessary and as I said people still have to get on and off the bus.

    And on it is on THAT basis that I am saying that the dual door buses represent a drop in capacity over single door buses.

    The 20 AVs are back in service because extra buses are needed to deliver a more reliable service on certain routes where running time is insufficient, or where additional capacity is required due to increased passenger numbers.


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  • #382
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    lucernarian wrote: »
    Then one could argue that the gangway leading to the first door is also unsuited to standing within as people use that to exit too. If you are going to be fair about it then you would accept that the middle door area can and is used for standees every day.

    Anyway, I have a photo of SG60 working the 83 yesterday with the 27 standees plate. Will post when not on mobile. I don't know why anyone would imply i made the whole thing up or that I'm talking out of my behind. Why would I even try to? I won't be so unkind as to suggest that cdebru doesn't have a clue about what he's talking about as this is an unusual contradiction of who saw what. ;)

    And the plate number wasnt even that relevant after all if I go back to the main point. 27 might not fit but I'm pretty sure more than 12 can! how can greater standing space for passengers automatically translate into less capacity? I've seen anything from 8 to 19 in this thread for total standees. Now that the one official measure of this has been discredited, anyone who wants to show a loss of capacity should use some hard methodology to show this. Its been claimed that the NTA allowed 20 AVs back into service because of xyz% fewer seats on an SG. I just don't see any proof of this when its a flawed way to measure capacity. What I do see is a recovery in passenger numbers...

    Would having 2 simultaneous buggy users be encountered by GT and SG drivers on like the majority of journeys driven?


    And I have a pic posted here of SG10 with a plate that states 16/19 standees, in order for there not to be less capacity on an SG it would need to be able to carry 27 standing which even you accept they "might" not be able to do.
    So how many standing passengers do you think could fit on an SG?

    BTW don't come with the whole wounded bit you are the one that came on accusing Alek of being dishonest and throwing out red herrings, what he said is true the SG and the GT can carry less people than an AV unless you actually believe that an SG can carry 27 standing passengers.


  • #383
    VG31
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭VG31


    I know that people should not stand in the centre door area but people do anyway and as few drivers use them it doesn't matter.


  • #384
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,002 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    lucernarian wrote: »
    .
    Would having 2 simultaneous buggy users be encountered by GT and SG drivers on like the majority of journeys driven?

    Having two buggies on an SG or GT20+ would be quite normal on most journey's.

    It is,unsurprisingly route dependent,but multiple buggys are now the norm,with perhaps some consideration now required to further regulation in this regard.

    Social changes now also result in occupied buggies regularly appearing on peak time services also,as parents take the infants to childcare/relatives during their own working day.

    It has to be appreciated however,that the presence of an occupied buggy or wheelchair,will automatically result in an even further reduction in capacity,as the additional passenger load has to be viewed in a different perspective to allow for manouvereing of the wheeled devices.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #385
    poggyone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 81 ✭✭poggyone


    This topic has descended into a bus spotters argument about the differences between buses.
    i drive the buses and unless i looked at the id plate i could not tell you the difference between a AV,AX,EV and the double doored GT and SG.
    What has it got to do with being happy with the service or price?


  • #386
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Perceived capacity reductions in tandem with the further introduction of a new model with double doors and so on. And what the NTA and Dublin Bus are doing about the problems or not.


  • #387
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    poggyone wrote: »
    This topic has descended into a bus spotters argument about the differences between buses.
    i drive the buses and unless i looked at the id plate i could not tell you the difference between a AV,AX,EV and the double doored GT and SG.
    What has it got to do with being happy with the service or price?

    I once suggested that there should be a transport anoraks forum but sadly the obvious benefits were ignored :)


  • #388
    Trond
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭Trond


    poggyone wrote: »
    This topic has descended into a bus spotters argument about the differences between buses.
    i drive the buses and unless i looked at the id plate i could not tell you the difference between a AV,AX,EV and the double doored GT and SG.
    What has it got to do with being happy with the service or price?

    Turn off your bleedin radio will ya :pac:


  • #389
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,248 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Bambi wrote: »
    I once suggested that there should be a transport anoraks forum but sadly the obvious benefits were ignored :)
    Here, no one put a gun to your head to read those posts! ;)


  • #390
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I apologise for digging up an old thread, but reading threw it, many posts here clearly show me that many people here on this thread have never used buses in other countries in Europe and have no idea what a fast, efficient bus service looks like. Sorry that I didn't multiquote the points, but here are the general points.
    That Europe wide multi-door operations are only used with good bus stop infrastructure specifically designed for it!!

    This one had me really choking! The person who said this really needs to travel around Europe on public transport.

    It is absolutely normal for multidoor buses to be used with zero infrastructure. For instance as I posted over on another thread today, using a 4 door bendi bus between Krakow city and airport. Outside the city there are no bus stops, not even bus stop poles!! The bus simply stops at the edge of each road intersection. Only the front door would be aligned with the curb. The other three doors would also open and people would simply step into the middle of the street/intersection and walk to the footpath!

    I've seen this on my travels all throughout Poland, Lithuania, Czech Republic and yes even Germany.

    In rural areas it is a case there isn't even a footpath. The multi-door bus simply stops on a dirt road and leaves people off into a ditch! Not unusual at all.
    That DB drivers can't use the rare doors on health and safety grounds and always carefully and safely use the front doors.

    Bull****, I see the front doors being used dangerously on a daily basis. The 16 bus stop on Westmoreland St is a perfect example. Often the stop is wrongly blocked by taxis, so the bus just stops a lane away from the curb and people enter and exit by stepping into the lane way.

    I see this happening all over the city center daily. Sometimes it is because another DB bus is already stopped at the stop, so the driver behind won't bother to pull in and instead will open the front doors one lane away from the curb and behind the other bus and have people disembark onto the lane.

    And I'm not saying they are wrong to do this. It is the reality of running a busy, congested city bus service. But don't make out DB are angels and always concerned about health and safety. It seems to me they only blame h&s when it suits them and they are simply too lazy to use the rear doors.

    Interestingly, in Poland, the doors mostly seem to be actually operated by the passengers. The passenger presses a button on either the inside or outside of the door and it opens. Pretty much the same to how the Luas/Dart works. I assume these buttons only work when the bus is stopped and the driver has pressed a button to allow them to be used.

    Perhaps this is the solution to the health and safety issue. It takes responsibility away from the driver and places it on the passengers who have decided to use it.
    People shouldn't be standing in the rear doorways!!! (And thus can't be counted towards standing capacity)

    Again this has no basis in reality of what happens throughout Europe! Again taking my Krakow example, I watched as at least 4 or 5 people stood in each of the rear 3 doorways (obviously not the front one). When people wanted to get off, people in the doorway would simply step off to leave them out and then step back into the bus. Simple easy peasy.

    Again I've seen this all throughout Europe.

    We even see this every day at peak times on the Luas and DART. So I'm not sure why it is such a surprise to people!

    Sure people might not be use to it on Dublin Bus. But if DB start to use multi-doors constantly, I'm sure people will quickly adapt to it, just like people in London and the rest of Europe and even Irish people on the DART and Luas.

    So the double door buses, clearly have more standing room then their previous, single door equivalents and thus much the same capacity.


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  • #391
    dublindiehard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭dublindiehard


    Have you ever traveled with PKP (Train Company) in Poland? :)

    Doors opening when not at stations is not unheard of, infact it happened to me this weekend!

    The doors lit up and I pressed the button to open since it was dark and only saw track, and realised that for some reason the doors had been released outside a station.


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