Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Read Mod Warning in OP 7/1/15

Manutd_4life wrote: »

People have been saying that for months now. Why can't anyone just give them credit for what they have achieved this season and accept the fact that they are real contenders now for champion league places. They have great players and an unbelievable manager who has instilled his system much better than LVG has into the players. I honestly don't think they are going to collapse but they won't be far for top 4

That's fair enough but a liverpool win tommorrow wouid mean liverpool are a far bigger threat to utd for top 4 than Southampton would be.

Manutd_4life wrote: »

People have been saying that for months now. Why can't anyone just give them credit for what they have achieved this season and accept the fact that they are real contenders now for champion league places. They have great players and an unbelievable manager who has instilled his system much better than LVG has into the players. I honestly don't think they are going to collapse but they won't be far for top 4

Because teams always fall off every season, their goal scorers aren't scorinng as much, their spa quad isn't huge, saying they could fall off is a reasonable opinion.

I want to blame LVG, but I have been thinking about the game for some time and there is little he could do today. The team went a goal up and fail to see out the half. That is just poor from our players.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Said it before, saying we are crap but getting results was only going to last so long, now we're shít and didn't get the result today and I can't see us getting many with the run we have coming up. We're floating up shít creek at the moment

I can see us missing out on top 4 this season and LVG has shown nothing to earn him another year if that's the case, just like Moyes

Even if we miss out on the CL, sacking LVG would be a mistake. He hasn't done what we expected/hoped, but he needs another season at least. His record tells us he CAN get us success again.

Guys, have you thought about the impact giggs is having as a number two. Fergie always had a strong 2. I fail to see what giggs brings as a 2

Lord TSC wrote: »

Please don't try and make out as if I'm somehow defending RVP; in the first post you quoted, I gave out about him. He's not been up to scratch for 18 months now and under two managers, and displays just as many problems as Rooney is imo. Trying to put words into my mouth is just lazy; RVP can **** right off in the summer too.

You criticised RVP for not finishing the chances he got, but with Rooney it was different. You didn't once say anything about RVP not being bothered or not getting enough shots, you only complained that he wasted opportunities ("couldn't hit a barn door" as you put it). Whereas lack of being bothered and lack of chances was the focus in your criticism of Rooney. Both of those aspects of your criticism of Rooney conveniently fit into your ongoing claims that he drops too deep when played up front. I showed how he certainly was bothered - 32 receptions in the final third, 3 shots inside the box and 4 out of 7 aerial duels won is a lot of work from a striker by any standard. That also shows how he was getting an acceptable number of opportunities. Rooney was more bothered than RVP and had a similar number of chances as him. And yet you had no issue with RVP's level of botheredness or the number of chances he got on the end of.

Lord TSC wrote: »

As for the stats and the rest of your post, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree; I stand by my belief that Rooney is not the way forward for us any more. I'm not going to base my opinion on how many touches he had in numbers, but on what i felt he did with those touches when he got them. Stats without context is, again, lazy. After all, based on stats, we're the 4th best team in the league as we've got more points than the other teams. So we're brilliant, right?

That's a bit of s strawman, there was ample context provided with the stats in my post. And you're ignoring the number of shots in the box he had. 3 shots from inside the box is respectable for a top level striker, especially when you consider he was playing alongside another CF rather than a more creative player.

Lord TSC wrote: »

There's a discussion going on about Fergie parallel to this, and how he'd possibly have the team firing better. As Fergie was walking out the door, he pretty much had Rooney one foot out with him. The year before he left, he sought to replace Rooney up front with RVP (and we won the league in the process). Fergie seemingly had lost patience with Rooney. Meanwhile, Moyes comes in and gives him the new contract, and then makes him pretty much the key creative force of the team, not as a striker but in number 10....and we flounder.

Then LVG comes in, Rooney is captain, and, be it in midfield or up front, the team continues to flounder.

We can keep cycling managers but eventually we need to realise the tools being given to them are not working. That's not defending Moyes either btw; he was tactically inept. And it's not saying that LVG is nailing his tactics either. But I firmly believe that so long as Rooney is out supposed leader, and so long as any new manager has to work with the likes of him and a few others, we're going to be struggling.

(And one other mention; I'm not saying we just need a striker; we need a wide attacker as well, and a better wing back on the side. It's not all Rooney. Just that he's a key problem).

Correlation does not imply causation.

Fergie won the league with RVP playing up front ahead of Rooney after a year he narrowly lost it with Rooney up front, sure. But United finished on the same points totals in both seasons (89 points) and with the team overall scoring three fewer goals (89 goals in 11/12 season with Rooney up to, versus 86 goals in RVP's 12/13 season). That really isn't good evidence that Rooney was holding the team back and that RVP was a better CF. The fact that RVP scored one goal fewer than Rooney when playing up front also doesn't help your argument.

History shows that Fergie nearly always played with two strikers, so buying another quality one to play with the one he already had was not at all unusual for him. History also shows that Fergie is a vindictive fecker and he had plenty of non-footballing reasons to want to have a go at Rooney as he was leaving.

Moyes was a defensive manager trying to implement his puke football on a team who wouldn't accept it. That is a far more likely explanation for the poor season than Rooney holding the team back.

LVG has continuously used unsuitable formations and selections for the squad he has available to him. They are simple issues that were pointed out at the start of the season and are a far more likely explanation for the poor play than that Rooney and RVP aren't good enough.

LVG didn't shake hands with Monk, apparently. Poor from LVG if true.

I think today proves that there is much more wrong at UTD then 5-3-2 and Falcao. RVP was shocking, our corners are terrible, if they don't hit the first man the keeper catches them all and we struggle to defend them and those long balls at the end to Fellaini, it was desperate stuff.

If Southampton win we are out of the top four and the pressure will be immense on the players. If LVG continues as he has so far I don't think we'll make top four. Two seasons in a row out of the UCL will negatively effect the type of players we can get.

Its squeaky bum and fingers crossed time from here on out.

Can't pin it on LVG in my view. We had some great play at times but gave the ball away cheaply and didnt work the keeper much at all. Every corner/set piece we looked a bit vulnerable but I think that might have just been the size and presence of Gomis.

The sad part is we played better in that game than we have in previous matches where we've come away with points we didnt deserve. I definitely think we deserved a point out of the game but thats football. The top four is wide open and I won't be going crazy and panicking just yet. Nothing has changed in my view we still just have to go out and win as many as possible. Can't allow slip ups.

I would like to see Mata coming on and getting some more time but competition is tough for attacking midfielders at the moment. I can't imagine LVG will allow the heads to drop and hopefully we come back fighting. After the next two league games comes one of our biggest tests with Spurs followed by Pool. Hopefully we can get 6 points from the clashes with Sunderland and Newcastle and then worry about those games.

I think it's also important for LVG to do well in the FA cup, a cup run to the final would be great for morale and keep the press on the leash for a bit. But without question top 4 is the main priority. Saying that it's been over 10 years since we last one it and I really want to see us win it again!

secman wrote: »

7 months in and LVG admits he doesn't know his best 11.?

He is obsessed with possession, so much so that players probably fear losing the ball . This stifles our creative play, definitely not enough movement by players off the ball, too few options for player on the ball.
Ah feck this.... need to switch off..

Did ferguson know his best 11. Didn't he rotate for 100 games in a row or something. You adapt for every game.

I'm not seeing the silver linings that others have talked about from the game today.

The way I see it we had a lot of very poor passing in the first half; trouble defending crosses; got caught short on numbers by counter attacks a few times; had better possession as the game wore on, but still lacked creativity and eventually (once again) resorted to long balls for the last 20 minutes.

Monk has looked to me like a fairly ordinary English manager in his time so far. He mostly sticks to short passing as Swansea want, but they still play overly direct so give up possession frequently and end up playing on the counter a lot of the time. Given that, I wouldn't put too much weight in the fact that United had so much possession in the second half.

secman wrote: »

7 months in and LVG admits he doesn't know his best 11.?

He is obsessed with possession, so much so that players probably fear losing the ball . This stifles our creative play, definitely not enough movement by players off the ball, too few options for player on the ball.
Ah feck this.... need to switch off..

Think this plays a large part in it, especially considering that he's so inconsistent with team selections. They're probably thinking that being too ambitious could land them on the bench for later games.

Can be dangerous judging on MOTD highlights but the defending was cat for both Swansea goals,no pressure put on Shelvey each time,Di Maria too easily pushed off ball and Fellaini getting ball launched up to him for last 10 mins.
EMBARRASING.....that is not the Man Utd way.