The popularity and ethics of PUAs and similar communities

Wibbs · 11-02-2015 04:07PM

Jesus, talk about tragic. Poor bugger. How he logics out the whole thing is hard to read. I mean he has something of a point to make a shorter Asian guy who isn't minted is going to find it harder than a tall white fella with a few quid, but the reality is no matter who you are you'll have some competition, even if that's just ageing.

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2015 04:21PM

I'd bet the farm that he had some serious mental health issues along with this.

Wibbs · 11-02-2015 04:24PM

Oh sure AC, but I find that the automatic go to diagnosis of mental health issues in every case isn't so great an explanation. He could have ended up with his mental health problems because of his life and the way he felt it was going, or not going in the dating department and no pill is going to cure that.

ancapailldorcha · 11-02-2015 04:36PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh sure AC, but I find that the automatic go to diagnosis of mental health issues in every case isn't so great an explanation. He could have ended up with his mental health problems because of his life and the way he felt it was going, or not going in the dating department and no pill is going to cure that.

I see what you mean but being single and having no success alone wouldn't be enough to push most healthy people this far. Depression? Maybe, I'm not an expert but this seems very much to be an extreme example.

RedJoker · 11-02-2015 05:56PM

He was helpful enough to address the mental health topic in his FAQ (I don't have much experience with suicide notes but he does seem incredibly lucid):

14. You are clearly mentally ill? Why don’t you go to a psychiatrist?
Amazingly someone told me that anyone who wants to die is “by definition” mentally ill. That implies that anyone is paraplegic and goes to Digitas to die is clearly mentally ill as well. If being mentally ill means that you won’t accept people lying to you, if it implies that you don’t want to live in pain for the rest of your life, then you’re absolutely right.
For those of you who don’t know, I did end up in The Priory Hospital in Roehampton where I met some awesome people (yes, some were famous). However I found that they were low on facts and relied heavily on emotional ‘one-liners’, not logic. It also seems to address the ‘symptoms’ of the issue, not the problem itself.

I was repeatedly told to “trust the process”, but no-one was willing to outline this mystical process. To me it was one step removed from a cult with pseudo science used to ‘persuade’ rather than educate. For one session at The Priory I was told to stare at an orange for an hour… Make your own conclusions on how effective that technique was…

Interestingly enough, I know of three relationships which started between Priory patients. Two involved a 5ft10+ Caucasian guy… and one with a guy who may have been 5ft8-9

Yes, it's an extreme example and I personally don't think game would have helped him, as I mentioned. I've seen these mindsets with other guys and you might as well be talking to a wall. It's actually chilling seeing the similarities in their "logic" and this suicide note. My point was that there are guys with the exact same insecurities who can be helped and who's lives can be improved.

KomradeBishop · 11-02-2015 07:44PM

It wouldn't surprise me if the guys observations are right - when it comes to attraction, being judgmental about it is accepted and even encouraged; it's not uncommon, to hear people express a dislike - when it comes to attraction - of someone, for a minor/inconsequential reason.

It's not something that people are encouraged to challenge in themselves (the opposite usually), attraction/preferences are usually considered as 'innate' or unchangeable, when they aren't really.

Still - no reason for the guy to top himself though...he's only identified a potential bias among white women, not in each race, so it's not like he couldn't date anyone (not for that reason anyway).

RedJoker · 11-02-2015 08:03PM

His observations are correct, the problem is that his conclusions don't follow from the observations. In fact the observations directly contradict his conclusions.

It might be easier for me to spot compared to him given that
- I know his conclusions are wrong.
- I'm not ego invested in trying to "prove" the conclusions.
- I can see/speculate on the far more plausible explanations for his lack of success.

Littlekittylou · 12-02-2015 05:51AM

It's weird because I am a girl the world of it is closed off to me. (Suits me not for me at all) So what I can see of it is limited.

But this is my two sense.

It has nothing to do with gender or men. Females are involved in making money in the industry too. It's simply entrepreneurial. There are many unethical industries. Harassment or violence or breaking the law is where the line is.

It's nothing to do with men or women. It's just an industry.

They are companies. That's all. They are not evil and probably don't hate women. It's capitalism.

And they probably work hard generating media content that appeals to men and networking etc etc. They probably have good public speaking skills etc.

They couldn't have successful businesses and be playboys sleeping with a different woman every night. Maybe a different woman every week ;-) But they are just normal business people. I would think branding is important.

I

I think it's latching on to brands or trends already successful with men. And trying to get adware applications onto specific sites.

I am possibly the least business savvy person I know so I dunno.

But it's not to do with women or men. Women make money from it too.

It can't be marketed towards women or sold to women though the market just is not there. I would say the whole thing waxes and wanes a bit with economic changes. The marketing materials soften or harden or becomes more hardcore according to social changes. The Anti-Pua media hype is the biggest corner to overate it.
The individuals who go to this stuff I would say would not be doing it in five years time.

I do know a guy who used to 'sarge' I only just figured out what he was doing, he is now married with a baby. It was a genuine search for a girlfriend. It was born out of a dry patch and low self esteem. He was not a bad guy at all. I doubt PUA had much to do with his getting married. More it was a change of environment and mindset.

The individuals who demonstrate illegal or bad behaviors are responsible alone for what they do. Just like not all lawyers are bad etc. It's not the nicest ideal but it's not the nastiest. It is what the individual makes of it. But the marketing material has to be pretty hardcore i would imagine. That coupled with the fact there are some pretty nasty women and men on this planet makes you think.

I pretty much know and trust that guy I used to know IS a good guy.

But I will finish off with this. Being who you are not to get what you want is not a way to be happy. If you think a skill, or learning a skill will be more powerful than expression, connection and someone influencing you and you influencing them then you will only end up confused and frustrated with life, love and sex.

You don't have to fix yourself into a social institution you don't want to (I.E monogamy) but you do have to find compatibility. You can't control everything not even yourself.

You know if you gave me the ability to read minds the first one I would read would be my own! I would love to know what I am thinking half the time!

No one is socially perfect. No one has perfect timing or perfect anything.

I think being sociable means liking society.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=sociable+definition&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=-ivcVLruIbLc7Qaji4GIAw

Manipulation of your friends or lover is pushing a button that gives you less and less as time goes on.

It's that women do not do it clearly if there are women in this industry they do. Or outside of it. It's not that men do it more they don't. This just happens to be marketed towards men.

The goal of sleeping with as many good looking women as possible without getting into a relationship is not in itself a bad thing. It is what it it is. That's a lifestyle choice.

I think the marketing has to get more and more extreme as time goes by and with the expansion into other sites etc.

If casual sex is all they are after. That is fine. You will find though that manipulation is a button that gives less and less over time. No one will stay forever in that. She might stay long enough for you to have sex for a while but that is it. I know that's what a lot of men want or will settle for.

But most women want to give so much more if those men would only let them.

I can't say that I am able to see it from the male perspective obviously. But learning to be sexually and socially happy is something we all struggle with. It should be a positive thing for society. I would wager as much as men have a need to have sex they have a need to have sex whilst being themselves.

Women want give more than PUA will allow men to receive. By the way that goes for even in a **** buddy situation.

But the truth about PUA i would wager is elusive and probably not available to someone like myself.

I don't want to get into any arguments or anything. I hope my post was considered constructive and polite.

Is it all bad ...? Well no prob not but the marketing portrays it as such

Potatoeman · 12-02-2015 06:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Jesus, talk about tragic. Poor bugger. How he logics out the whole thing is hard to read. I mean he has something of a point to make a shorter Asian guy who isn't minted is going to find it harder than a tall white fella with a few quid, but the reality is no matter who you are you'll have some competition, even if that's just ageing.

It doesn't really matter how unfair he thinks it is. He could have been born butt ugly too for all we know. If Caucasian woman are not as attracted to Asian guys then that’s unfortunate for him but why doesn't he try to meet an Asian girl. Go travelling, anything. You can't change what other people are attracted to.

strobe · 12-02-2015 09:28PM

Potatoeman wrote: »

It doesn't really matter how unfair he thinks it is. He could have been born butt ugly too for all we know. If Caucasian woman are not as attracted to Asian guys then that’s unfortunate for him but why doesn't he try to meet an Asian girl. Go travelling, anything. You can't change what other people are attracted to.

That was my first thought too. Move to an Oriental/Asian country? Might seem drastic but ye know, compared to suicide? Which is why I think there's a little more than 'can't get a girl' at play, seems that's just what he obsessed over/ focused on most. He seems like a bright enough guy, find it hard to imagine he didn't think "English girls don't want oriental guys, maybe I should try my luck in the orient" at any point.

seenitall · 13-02-2015 08:28PM

Maybe, the same way he found that seemingly every white woman is more attracted to white or black than Oriental, he was as much wired to be attracted to white women only?

That suicide reasoning article is so depressing and one track mind (as in, he got into the groove of negative thinking and nothing was going to pull him out of that), it is really sad to read. But it makes it abundantly clear why he felt he had to die. If I were living in his head, I'd want to die, too.

I used to go out with a lovely ethnically Chinese guy (Aussie culturally), he was tallish but poor (bus driver by day, sex machine by night

), I wonder what your man would have made of that... I'd say there are definitely some mixed race couples around where the guy is Chinese and the girl is Irish, I know of one anyway!.. and that's in Ireland, a small and rather ethnically homogenous country which still isn't exactly culturally au fait with expanding the gene pool beyond racial lines*

One of my friends is attracted only to either black or Latino guys, white simply doesn't do it for her. It's like a fetish. The world is a big, big place, I'm sure there are plenty of white women out there whose boat gets floated solely by Oriental, as well. Plenty. It's just a matter of finding them, and that shouldn't have been too difficult to do, living in a big western city, in the age of internet, either. It's a great pity that the guy was too set in his negative groove to realise this. Which brings it back to the point of there must have been some underlying heavy self esteem or depression issues there in the first place. A mental health thing. RIP.

* The one day in my life where I felt like a total celebrity was the day when I took a walk with the aforementioned boyfriend on the Galway prom. Strolling, holding hands, we attracted more open stares than if I'd been holding the tail of a three-headed dragon.

Holsten · 13-02-2015 10:15PM

Reading that blog is crazy.. there is so much more to life that women and relationships it is insane to kill yourself over some notation that you'll never be chosen because of some rules you've thought up.

What a waste of a life.

Pug160 · 13-02-2015 10:33PM

seenitall wrote: »

and that's in Ireland, a small and rather ethnically homogenous country which still isn't exactly culturally au fait with expanding the gene pool beyond racial lines*

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That could be due to lack of opportunity in many cases. Although there will always be people who either consciously or subconsciously 'stick to their own kind', and probably always will. You also have to bear in mind the high levels of migration and emigration from Ireland. Those are the people who will be far more open to interracial/intercultural relationships. In fact, I'd say it's one of the driving forces behind some people's decision to explore another country.

As for the guy who committed suicide: it looks to me as though he was chasing the elusive white whale - as some men have been known to do. But in his case it ultimately destroyed him. He was fixated on white women in particular. He may well have been more attracted to them than women of other races, but there was probably a certain amount of validation seeking going on too. A white woman would have been a status symbol. You see it all the time - particularly with black athletes/musicians/film stars..

There is a stereotype about East Asian men drawing the short stick when it comes to attraction. In all honesty there must be at least an element of truth to it. But even if that is the case, there are always plenty of exceptions to any rule. He had plenty to live for and should have been more open to dating all sorts of women.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 14-02-2015 10:52PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

There are statements the author makes that I agree with and ones I disagree with.

- The Washington Post/Sun ran an article a few years ago about statistics obtained from Maryland or Baltimore Police which found that one-third of rape allegations were false accusations and were used as a means of revenge.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-city-rapes-gallery-storygallery.html this isn't the source I first read it on but it is reputable and proves I'm not making things up.

Sorry, I know this is off topic but this kind of thing is getting insidious. That article states that almost thirty percent of cases were deemed unfounded, which in this context is not synonymous with false. It has been observed that: "This statistic [on unfounded rapes] is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, “unfounded.” That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser’s statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false."

The article you've linked also states that Louisville and Pittsburgh had similar rates for unfounded rape cases until they changed their classification procedures. It seems slightly more likely to me that they started changing how cases like those outlined above were classified than they somehow implemented changes that for some reason made the women of those cities stop being lying vindictive bitches.

lazybones32 · 17-02-2015 06:37PM

Anabelle Uninterested Apparel wrote: »

Sorry, I know this is off topic but this kind of thing is getting insidious. That article states that almost thirty percent of cases were deemed unfounded, which in this context is not synonymous with false. It has been observed that: "This statistic [on unfounded rapes] is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, “unfounded.” That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser’s statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false."

The article you've linked also states that Louisville and Pittsburgh had similar rates for unfounded rape cases until they changed their classification procedures. It seems slightly more likely to me that they started changing how cases like those outlined above were classified than they somehow implemented changes that for some reason made the women of those cities stop being lying vindictive bitches.

The link I provided was solely intended as proof that I didn't fabricate the figure and - as stated - wasn't the source.

The definition of Rape, as used by the FBI, was updated on Jan. 2013. Their use of "unfounded" hasn't changed and is different from the version supplied by your 1996 wikipedia link. "The FBI definition of unfounded specifically refers to cases that are found to be false or baseless" (Oregon SATF)*.

A false allegation refers to an allegation that has been investigated and factually shown to have not occurred.
A "baseless" report is a report that doesn't meet the criteria of being a crime - a person may think they were the victim of a crime when nothing contrary to Law occurred.

The FBI uses UCR (Universal Crime Reporting) to compile its stats (trying to measure everything by the same measurement across all States). Using a 1996 quotation in 2015 is redundant, given the advances in classification, approach, procedures and legal doctrine that have occurred since.

* Oregon Sexual Assault Task Force (paper from 2008 or 2011)

DavidRamsay99 · 17-02-2015 07:39PM

The reason why PUA and similar communities thrive is because young boys and men are not formally taught practical skills such as how to make friends, how to be sociable and how to court the opposite sex. It is just expected that they learn and they will be competent. They are not guided by parents or teachers or anybody else. Many young men are leaving school and going to college and entering the adult world with literally no clue how to live normal lives.

Knowing how to get a date is a vital life skill for a man's mental well being.

I would imagine that a major root of a lot of male anger, violence, depression and suicide comes from failures with making friends and having girlfriends through a lack of social skills. If men knew how to communicate their emotions and sexual needs to women would there be as much prostitution, alcoholism and drug abuse and gambling as men seek to escape intense loneliness or get relief by other means?

The most common question men ask about approaching women is "What do I say?" and the most common answer they get is "Just be yourself."

Is it any surprise PUA snake oil salesman are filling the gap?

Succeeding with women is surely more vital than being good at job interviews. A man wants a wife or girlfriend more than he wants a job doesn't he?

Pug160 · 18-02-2015 06:37PM

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

The reason why PUA and similar communities thrive is because young boys and men are not formally taught practical skills such as how to make friends, how to be sociable and how to court the opposite sex. It is just expected that they learn and they will be competent. They are not guided by parents or teachers or anybody else. Many young men are leaving school and going to college and entering the adult world with literally no clue how to live normal lives.

Knowing how to get a date is a vital life skill for a man's mental well being.

I would imagine that a major root of a lot of male anger, violence, depression and suicide comes from failures with making friends and having girlfriends through a lack of social skills. If men knew how to communicate their emotions and sexual needs to women would there be as much prostitution, alcoholism and drug abuse and gambling as men seek to escape intense loneliness or get relief by other means?

The most common question men ask about approaching women is "What do I say?" and the most common answer they get is "Just be yourself."

Is it any surprise PUA snake oil salesman are filling the gap?

Succeeding with women is surely more vital than being good at job interviews. A man wants a wife or girlfriend more than he wants a job doesn't he?

I'm not sure if it can be formally taught, David. Many people develop the necessary skills through childhood and early adulthood. It's the people who slip through the net that suffer. The pertinent question is why do they slip through the net? I'm not a big believer in same sex schools. Proponents of same sex schools claim that girls are more comfortable in them and achieve better grades. That may well be true but grades alone are not the be-all-and-end-all by any means.

I agree to a certain extent about anger being derived from frustration at a lack of success with the opposite sex and friendships. I don't agree that it's a ''major root cause'' though. I think it's one of many reasons. Many men, for example, are abusive towards women despite being successful with them and life in general. There is an obvious link between success with the opposite sex and masculinity of course. That's clearly a ticking time bomb for some men if it's left to fester.

DavidRamsay99 · 18-02-2015 09:40PM

Pug160 wrote: »

I'm not sure if it can be formally taught, David. Many people develop the necessary skills through childhood and early adulthood. It's the people who slip through the net that suffer. The pertinent question is why do they slip through the net? I'm not a big believer in same sex schools. Proponents of same sex schools claim that girls are more comfortable in them and achieve better grades. That may well be true but grades alone are not the be-all-and-end-all by any means.

I agree to a certain extent about anger being derived from frustration at a lack of success with the opposite sex and friendships. I don't agree that it's a ''major root cause'' though. I think it's one of many reasons. Many men, for example, are abusive towards women despite being successful with them and life in general. There is an obvious link between success with the opposite sex and masculinity of course. That's clearly a ticking time bomb for some men if it's left to fester.

I think anything can be taught. Apply real scientific study to human courtship and a relatively fool proof step by step process would be discovered.
Unfortunately I think many people who are scientists and researchers are geeks while men who are highly successful with women - I'm talking about men who have sex with multiple women every week - have surely worked out a system. How else are these guys so successful unless they have learned through the process of trial and error how to go from an introduction to the bedroom unless they have developed a system that works for them? They don't have magical powers do they?

Now I'm not saying that every man should or could be sleeping with a different woman every single day. What I am saying is that men who are involuntary virgins for most of their adult lives and then out of desperation use prostitutes or worse marry the wrong woman and live miserable unhappy lives could be helped if someone would teach them what the hell they are doing wrong?

Chancer3001 · 19-02-2015 12:07AM

Big fan of pua.

IMO there are hugely varying schools of thought on it. There are also such a variation of "tutors"

To tar pua with one brush would be trying to say soccer is all played the same way.

Everybody wants to score a goal, but the approach, tactics and decisions and styles vary wildly.

Some are more successful than others and there are common ideas to all.

I'm proud of my soccer/ pua comparison

H3llR4iser · 20-02-2015 03:55PM

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

...young boys and men are not formally taught practical skills such as how to make friends, how to be sociable and how to court the opposite sex...

Knowing how to get a date is a vital life skill for a man's mental well being.

The most common question men ask about approaching women is "What do I say?" and the most common answer they get is "Just be yourself."

Pug160 wrote: »

...The pertinent question is why do they slip through the net? I'm not a big believer in same sex schools...

You both made excellent points here. What I however think is slightly wrong, is to look at the issue from one side only - the guy's side.

While I do agree with Pug160 that "teaching" certain life skills might not be too easy, it is also important to understand that girls/women are taught social skills from the moment they are born: while boys kick a ball in a field, girls play dress up; while boys play toy cars, girls play husband and wife and so on. Everything about a girls' upbringing is essentially cathered towards social interaction.

This has much deeper effects than most think with downsides on both ends: girls end up being potentially denied the oppotunity to fully develop non-social skills, while boys are left to figure out the social stuff by themselves. As a result, the former can easily get into a situation of extreme insecurity due to overreliance on other's approval, while the latter might just decide to shun social interaction and concentrate on what they can do best - this is why it's much more common for men than women to have some outstanding technical/scientific/practical skill while at the same time being completely clueless at social interaction.

On the other hand, women are often taught how to find certain characteristics undesirable, leading to completely unrealistic expectations - which hurts them as much as it hurts us. At least a couple of times, I have been talking to a woman in a "social setting" and, as soon as I was asked what I did for life and replied "engineer", I was met with rolling eyes and the conversation essentially ended right after that. In at least one occasion that I can remember, it was actually the lady initiating the conversation; So there was clearly some initial interest on their part but everything fell through just because there was something inside their heads sounding an alert, if you want to call it this way. I am not sure if they were expecting me to reply "Football player", "Millionaire" or "Toilette seat designer"; In any case their reaction wasn't really a surprise - every kind of media, from TV series to magazines, is full of situations where guys possessing certain kind of skills are depicted as undesirable, uncool, weird and ultimately "to avoid at all costs".

Now I am well past my 30th and quite frankly don't give a passing p1ss anymore, but something like that would have messed up with me when I was younger - and I guess it does with most 20-something guys.

The "just be yourself" advice is possibly the worst that can be given, as it is normally something that people who have a good amount of social skills say. The fact is that they are completely unaware about what they do to be as successful with the other sex as they are. "Just be yourself" is meaningless to somebody that has difficulties in interpersonal relations with the opposite sex - it's essentially like saying "go up to her and talk about Java subroutines"!

Last but not least, I agree fully with Pug160 about the same sex schools - they are a bad thing for the development of social skills, and have a more profound effect on what people expect from the opposite gender. The interactions you have with your friends and classmates, especially during teenage years, are absolutely crucial for building relational skills. There is no amount of brothers, sisters and cousins that can account for that.
Coming from a country that has no "same sex" schools since the 60s, one of the first things I noticed in Ireland is the "boys on one side, girls on the other" situation. You'll see it everywhere - from nightclubs to the canteen at work. In some cases, I also realized how some of the people I know essentially have little to no idea what to expect from the other side of the barricade.

Littlekittylou · 20-02-2015 04:40PM

Last but not least, I agree fully with Pug160 about the same sex schools - they are a bad thing for the development of social skills,

I went to both a single sexed school and a mixed school for three years. And I have been in mostly male environments and the opposite.

It's amazing how different these environments are.

I actually think environments where the genders are 50/50 are better and not just socially just easier. All girl and all male environments I think are missing something. I prefer a mix of friends.

seraphimvc · 20-02-2015 05:30PM

As usual we are late on everything, nobody talks about pua anymore since about 4/5 years ago.

In short, it is initially (and always has been) about helping guys to get girl/s. They do game and practice some techniques etc (read as: professional sleazebags) while some genuine guys do benefit from it for getting the girls they like. The whole thing works well in america....because...they are americans haha. And so the 'experienced pua' eventually settle down with the women they actually love and people figured out the ultimate solution of getting woman (keep moving to different cities until you find that the people love you without you doing anything), PUA communities are pretty dead by now (maybe 1 or 2 big ones still survive but the traffic over there are extremely low compared to back then).

In general most of the PUA stuffs are about social engineering and some rather basic socializing skills/techniques, in which over europe here we (the men) are doing quite well without going to lessons/courses....

anyway, if you would not be able to get an average irish girl without pua techniques then i am pretty sure that pua won't help you to get one either way.

ancapailldorcha · 20-02-2015 05:34PM

seraphimvc wrote: »

As usual we are late on everything, nobody talks about pua anymore since about 4/5 years ago.

I disagree. If anything, it's gaining traction. The Guardian have covered it. In addition, put in the name of a city into Google along with "bootcamp" or "workshop" and I'd say you'd get plenty of results.

seraphimvc wrote: »

anyway, if you would not be able to get an average irish girl without pua techniques then i am pretty sure that pua won't help you to get one either way.

Most of the benefits seem to be helping guys overcome social anxiety by spurring them to interact with as many people as possible. This breeds confidence which then makes them more attractive. It's also led to some guys becoming PUA acolytes defending PUAs as fiercely as some of previous generations would have religion.

seraphimvc · 20-02-2015 05:39PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Most of the benefits seem to be helping guys overcome social anxiety by spurring them to interact with as many people as possible. This breeds confidence which then makes them more attractive. It's also led to some guys becoming PUA acolytes defending PUAs as fiercely as some of previous generations would have religion.

how can any irish lads not doing well with girl is a myth to me. honestly i think it is a whole another issue (it is more like about irish girls that i am not going into that here lol), because I used to think the same like ye but i see irish lads are doing so well oversea (like i am in england now and i heard so many stories of irish lads doing so well in US or any other part of the world really).

ancapailldorcha · 20-02-2015 05:42PM

seraphimvc wrote: »

how can any irish lads not doing well with girl is a myth to me. honestly i think it is a whole another issue (it is more like about irish girls that i am not going into that here lol), because I used to think the same like ye but i see irish lads are doing so well oversea (like i am in england now and i heard so many stories of irish lads doing so well in US or any other part of the world really).

A lot of it is down to confidence I reckon. We have this image of being affable, drunken messes abroad and it's largely a good thing in terms of getting chatting to people. However, if you've got social anxiety, depression or an introvert like myself then doing well with women becomes problematic. Cases like this are where guys who want to improve themselves often turn to PUAs because they've filled a niche noone else has.

seraphimvc · 20-02-2015 05:53PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

A lot of it is down to confidence I reckon. We have this image of being affable, drunken messes abroad and it's largely a good thing in terms of getting chatting to people. However, if you've got social anxiety, depression or an introvert like myself then doing well with women becomes problematic. Cases like this are where guys who want to improve themselves often turn to PUAs because they've filled a niche noone else has.

In that regard yes, it would help. like i said many genuine guys do benefit from it but that is more about general socializing skills (with women) rather than actual pua stuffs. ok in fairness the 'beginner stuffs' in pua is pretty much about that as well.

ancapailldorcha · 20-02-2015 07:45PM

seraphimvc wrote: »

In that regard yes, it would help. like i said many genuine guys do benefit from it but that is more about general socializing skills (with women) rather than actual pua stuffs. ok in fairness the 'beginner stuffs' in pua is pretty much about that as well.

Definitely. This is how they can claim that it works and why so many guys will defend it so fervently.

Wibbs · 20-02-2015 11:05PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

At least a couple of times, I have been talking to a woman in a "social setting" and, as soon as I was asked what I did for life and replied "engineer", I was met with rolling eyes and the conversation essentially ended right after that.

Really? Bloody hell, what sorta variety of dingbat were they? "I'm an engineer, I build shít that makes your world work. What do you do" would be my approach. If I didn't run out of maths when I ran out of fingers and had brains and such..

Littlekittylou wrote: »

I actually think environments where the genders are 50/50 are better and not just socially just easier.

I'd kinda disagree with this. Now maybe it was a generational thing, but when I was 18-20 odd I noticed the single sex educated dudes were more successful with women. I went to an all boys school and what I noticed when I repeated the oul leaving in a mixed environment was you could kinda spot the mixed school guys fairly easily in general. They were more "mature", less a bunch of dossers, often less craic. The addition of young women in their lives as adolescents dialled back their exuberance a little. Without women in the classroom to impress the single sex schooled guys gave less of a feck. Plus more of the mixed dudes had women "friends" and weren't so great at making them girlfriends. Whereas the male only blokes didn't have that friend phase so much so were more likely to look for the romantic/sexual stuff up front. Now of course this was in very general terms. Plus I was usually comparing single sex rugger bugger type schools with less... well arrogant school environments. Arrogance at 20 gets you a longer way as a general rule. Later on not so much.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. If anything, it's gaining traction. The Guardian have covered it. In addition, put in the name of a city into Google along with "bootcamp" or "workshop" and I'd say you'd get plenty of results.

+1000 the PUA/Manosphere stuff has gone way more mainstream than it was five years ago. It's huge and still growing with it. You'd want to be living under a rock to reckon it was lesser these days.

seraphimvc wrote: »

because I used to think the same like ye but i see irish lads are doing so well oversea (like i am in england now and i heard so many stories of irish lads doing so well in US or any other part of the world really).

That's really simple stuff. Forget about the confidence stuff for a second. Novelty works everywhere. It's near hardwired into our species. Go for the oddball genes. A French lad(or lass) will do way better in Spain than he/she will in France. Being Irish will go over well in the US and the UK or wherever simply because you're different. I've seen an Italian lass who barely got a look in back home damn near get obsessive stalkers in Ireland. Objectively she was mixed middling in looks and personality TBH, but she was different. To her fellow Italians the novelty wouldn't be there, so they'd see more of the objective stuff going on.I've seen a couple of Irish women in a bar in Madrid get all sorts of attention and if anything they were well below par in looks and especially personality compared to the locals around them. Being Irish is a help, as we're one of the cultures that's seen as a bit of craic as a general rule, less serious, more easy going. As a bloke this stuff goes over really well in cultures where the macho over the top stuff rules. An Irish "ah sure how's yourself" can go over really well. Just as the Latin lover type being different can go over really well with an Irish woman.

Then we get to the confidence that ACD noted. Because as a novelty you get more attention and you select for those who give you more attention, you then feel better with the positive reaction, more confident and talk to more women with less of a feeling of desperation and need to please. That's some big juju right there on top of the novelty factor.

Of course that's not to say if you're a male wallflower in Gweedore you're gonna be a playboy in Toulouse. You still have to engage on some level.

It's long been my take that Irish men and Irish women are among the most easy going and coolest in the world, but that often we are better with men and women from other cultures. We're way too good at spotting each others BS

ancapailldorcha · 20-02-2015 11:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Really? Bloody hell, what sorta variety of dingbat were they? "I'm an engineer, I build shít that makes your world work. What do you do" would be my approach. If I didn't run out of maths when I ran out of fingers and had brains and such.

Unless it's to do with misappropriation of the title, ie binmen calling themselves "sanitation engineers". No idea, just throwing that out there.

Wibbs wrote: »

That's really simple stuff. Forget about the confidence stuff for a second. Novelty works everywhere. It's near hardwired into our species. Go for the oddball genes. A French lad(or lass) will do way better in Spain than he/she will in France. Being Irish will go over well in the US and the UK or wherever simply because you're different. I've seen an Italian lass who barely got a look in back home damn near get obsessive stalkers in Ireland. Objectively she was mixed middling in looks and personality TBH, but she was different. To her fellow Italians the novelty wouldn't be there, so they'd see more of the objective stuff going on.I've seen a couple of Irish women in a bar in Madrid get all sorts of attention and if anything they were well below par in looks and especially personality compared to the locals around them. Being Irish is a help, as we're one of the cultures that's seen as a bit of craic as a general rule, less serious, more easy going. As a bloke this stuff goes over really well in cultures where the macho over the top stuff rules. An Irish "ah sure how's yourself" can go over really well. Just as the Latin lover type being different can go over really well with an Irish woman.

Then we get to the confidence that ACD noted. Because as a novelty you get more attention and you select for those who give you more attention, you then feel better with the positive reaction, more confident and talk to more women with less of a feeling of desperation and need to please. That's some big juju right there on top of the novelty factor.

Of course that's not to say if you're a male wallflower in Gweedore you're gonna be a playboy in Toulouse. You still have to engage on some level.

It's long been my take that Irish men and Irish women are among the most easy going and coolest in the world, but that often we are better with men and women from other cultures. We're way too good at spotting each others BS

The being Irish thing still helps with all that in mind though. I'm only across the Irish Sea in Brighton which seems to be a beacon of some sort for the continentals and my accent still stands out by a country mile. If I wasn't so introverted and was willing to play the numbers game, I'd have quite an advantage over someone who came down from Birmingham or similar.

H3llR4iser · 21-02-2015 01:57AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Really? Bloody hell, what sorta variety of dingbat were they? "I'm an engineer, I build shít that makes your world work. What do you do" would be my approach. If I didn't run out of maths when I ran out of fingers and had brains and such..

Yeah, this has happened to me a few times, at least twice that I can remember in relatively recent times, but probably there have been some other occasions. In one case, the lady in question tried an half-assed attempt at justifying her reaction with the ever-so-present, imaginary "ex" which was an "engineer" and also a "prick". In another occasion, the lovely young woman went out the classic rant of "another nerdy one" and "why I never meet anybody interesting". Funny, because until knowing that bit of information she clearly didn't think I was a "nerdy one".

I guess next time I am talking to a lady and she says she is an "hairdresser", "beautician" or "fashion blogger", I should launch in a rant about how many "airheads" are there around and see how long that boat floats

But in general there is a certain stigma attached to some professions/activities, thanks in no small part to the cinema and TV - more often than not, the "smart guy" characters get some wildly undesirable characteristics attached to them: if it's not a weird physical appearance, they're either portrayed as fumbling social idiots, if not borderline evil.

Mind you, happens to the "smart girl" characters too, which often undergo the transformation to "blonde bimbo" and become desirable.

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd kinda disagree with this. Now maybe it was a generational thing, but when I was 18-20 odd I noticed the single sex educated dudes were more successful with women. I went to an all boys school and what I noticed when I repeated the oul leaving in a mixed environment was you could kinda spot the mixed school guys fairly easily in general. They were more "mature", less a bunch of dossers, often less craic. The addition of young women in their lives as adolescents dialled back their exuberance a little. Without women in the classroom to impress the single sex schooled guys gave less of a feck. Plus more of the mixed dudes had women "friends" and weren't so great at making them girlfriends. Whereas the male only blokes didn't have that friend phase so much so were more likely to look for the romantic/sexual stuff up front. Now of course this was in very general terms. Plus I was usually comparing single sex rugger bugger type schools with less... well arrogant school environments. Arrogance at 20 gets you a longer way as a general rule. Later on not so much.

Not sure, man. We can only compare personal experiences here, mine is that of a mixed school - and again, because where I come from the single gender ones kinda disappeared with the 60s, I have no "control group" to compare with, if I get the idea across. Some of the differences I spot might very well be down to simple cultural conundrums - my first impact with people that attended exclusively single-gender schools has been in Ireland.
Again, in my eyes the differences are striking - even in the canteen at work, with people in their 30s and 40s, you see the "girls tables" and the "boys tables". There is clearly a bit of uneasiness on both sides about being nearby a member of the opposite sex, unless it's somebody they have been knowing for a long time, and a fairly clear lack of conversation topics.

In the end, it's all down to what is looks like from the standpoint of personal experience. I do think that men who grew up in a mixed environment, attending mixed schools, will be more relaxed around women and just a little bit more "in touch" with the fact that we think and act differently; A little bit more trained to the task, if I may use such an expression.
But it can also be that this doesn't necessarily hold true, and cultural differences might account for most of it.

Wibbs wrote: »

...Novelty works everywhere...I've seen an Italian lass who barely got a look in back home damn near get obsessive stalkers in Ireland. Objectively she was mixed middling in looks and personality TBH, but she was differen...I've seen a couple of Irish women in a bar in Madrid get all sorts of attention and if anything they were well below par in looks and especially personality compared to the locals around them...

Of course that's not to say if you're a male wallflower in Gweedore you're gonna be a playboy in Toulouse. You still have to engage on some level.

Lol watch out, this is both true and false at the same time, and it's not as easy nor as clear cut as it might look. It is actually different between men and women. It's not by chance that the examples you report are mostly about women; We guys are essentially hard-wired to be attracted by women that are as striking and out-of-the-ordinary as possible, best "mother for our children" possible, which would guarantee the most genetic variety. That's the reason why I, born in Italy, find a lot of Irish women to be incredibly sexy and attractive (you're welcome, ladies

); I can understand why an Irish guy, in turn, would find a short, wide-hipped, sour-faced Italian woman the most attractive creature he ever laid his eyes on (I'm sorry for you, guys

). So yes, an average looking woman will usually look much more attractive in the eyes of a foreign man than in those of a local.

The other way around...not so easy. Women are wired to try and find out the best possible "parent for their children" just like we are, but the substance is slightly different: security comes much more into play, and from that point of view a local man is nearly unbeatable. He will have all of his connections readily available, all of his family and friends nearby and there are very little chances that, one day, he'd just jump on a plane and disappear 2000 km away. In most cases he'll also hold a better and higher paid job and generally better social status than almost any foreigner living in the country. The latter however may only partially apply to Ireland, as there are many foreigners in good jobs/positions.

So for us, the "exotic" factor may or may not work, depending on social factors - and oh yes, this one has also been hurled at me..."why don't you meet any nice Irish men these days!"

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The popularity and ethics of PUAs and similar communities

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