How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

Nodin · 13-02-2015 06:53PM

bb1234567 wrote: »

Why? the tattoos? They're two perfectly normal looking guys tbh see nothing wrong with it.

No, its the thought of two beards entangled in the night.....

*shudder

marienbad · 13-02-2015 06:54PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Chill out.

They might have a difference of opinion as to the degree of equality you deserve, but might still vote to give you some degree of equality

Evidence for this is the fact that people are bringing adoption into this.

I don't expect you take such a dispassionate view point on this, but lets at least try and be constructive.

Then be constructive yourself, the only people bringing children and adoption into it are effectively professional no campaigners , they know they are being disingenuous but the end justifies the means and all that.

No one is advocating a Pride parade every day in every town but let not go to the other extreme of concealing identity until after the vote.

If someone is put off by such displays they are always voting no anyway.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 06:57PM

marienbad wrote: »

Then be constructive yourself, the only people bringing children and adoption into it are effectively professional no campaigners , they know they are being disingenuous but the end justifies the means and all that.

No one is advocating a Pride parade every day in every town but let not go to the other extreme of concealing identity until after the vote.

If someone is put off by such displays they are always voting no anyway.

I agree with everything you said except the bolded part. There are many people who don't even know any gay people who are voting Yes as a matter of principle.

I know plenty of left wing student politicians who still give strange looks to their mates when they see two gay men kissing.

There is no typical Yes voter and no typical No voter. Thinking that there is will lose this referendum because it will be decided by the very large swing vote.

Ave Sodalis · 13-02-2015 06:58PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

It's not me that has a problem with it.

I'm aware of that. However, from what I can gather from your posts, your idea of a successful campaign is the yes promoters sitting and smiling whilst the lies and insults are spread and gay people themselves should hide under a rock or pretend to not be what they're promoting. The No side aren't going to get a grovelling and hiding who someone is because they might get a few votes turning the other way when they're discussing who they are is ridiculous. Nobody goes "I support SSM! Oh wait, is that what gay looks like?! No way!" I'd like to think the people voting yes understand what being gay actually involves and aren't going to be overly shocked at that picture, which is in no way shoving anything into people's faces. Heck, it doesn't even mention they're gay and therefore making it stand out, it just says it spoke to 4 couples.

bodice ripper · 13-02-2015 07:04PM

I see we are back around to being told to suck up to blatant No voters in the hopes of turning them.

I'd be more in to turning their sisters, tbh.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 07:04PM

sup_dude wrote: »

I'm aware of that. However, from what I can gather from your posts, your idea of a successful campaign is the yes promoters sitting and smiling whilst the lies and insults are spread and gay people themselves should hide under a rock or pretend to not be what they're promoting. The No side aren't going to get a grovelling and hiding who someone is because they might get a few votes turning the other way when they're discussing who they are is ridiculous. Nobody goes "I support SSM! Oh wait, is that what gay looks like?! No way!" I'd like to think the people voting yes understand what being gay actually involves and aren't going to be overly shocked at that picture, which is in no way shoving anything into people's faces. Heck, it doesn't even mention they're gay and therefore making it stand out, it just says it spoke to 4 couples.

Alright. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of people. I think most people in Ireland tend to be turned off by insults and lies so I've never seen the likes of Iona as much of a threat. Due to the fact that Ireland is one of the last of places to legalise it out of the countries we most identify with I think people who generally support the status quo see gay marriage as being part of the status quo. I think because of this Iona is seen as a bit of a fringe group.

Maybe your experience has been different, I accept that.

floggg · 13-02-2015 07:04PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Chill out.

They might have a difference of opinion as to the degree of equality you deserve, but might still vote to give you some degree of equality

Evidence for this is the fact that people are bringing adoption into this.

I don't expect you take such a dispassionate view point on this, but lets at least try and be constructive.

You cannot have a difference of opinion as to the degree of equality somebody deserves. In fact, the notion of "degrees of equality" is a contradiction in terms.

We are either equal, or we are not.

It's also rather disingenuous to phrase it as simply a "difference of opinion." We can disagree over which music we like, or which political direction our country heads in.

The belief that somebody is less deserving of rights because of who they are, what colour their skin is, or what religion they believe in is not a "difference of opinion" - its intolerance and discrimination (and the 'b' word).

Describing it as a "difference of opinion" is given undeserved validity to such a view.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 07:06PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

I see we are back around to being told to suck up to blatant No voters in the hopes of turning them.

That's politics.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 07:08PM

floggg wrote: »

You cannot have a difference of opinion as to the degree of equality somebody deserves. In fact, the notion of "degrees of equality" is a contradiction in terms.

We are either equal, or we are not.

It's also rather disingenuous to phrase it as simply a "difference of opinion." We can disagree over which music we like, or which political direction our country heads in.

The belief that somebody is less deserving of rights because of who they are, what colour their skin is, or what religion they believe in is not a "difference of opinion" - its intolerance and discrimination (and the 'b' word).

Describing it as a "difference of opinion" is given undeserved validity to such a view.

Degrees of equality is not a contradiction in terms because we're talking about social equality not a mathematical equation.

You wouldn't go back to 1990 and say that people advocating for legalisation gayness but not gay marriage are anti-equality.

bb1234567 · 13-02-2015 07:10PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Logical? No. Do people think like that? Absolutely.

If I think that ISIS should be bombed to bits, will that make me any less likely to wretch at the sight of body parts flying? No.

People are socialised to see gayness as disgusting and that's not quickly gotten rid of.

Just to be clear, I'm not against the photo at all. I think it's good to normalise it, but you're kidding yourself if you think this won't turn some swing voters. It's certainly not going to make any No voters turn Yes.

I agree actually. I think they should have used a lesbian couple honestly, it would appeal more to the straight people in the nation , male and female.

floggg · 13-02-2015 07:10PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Alright. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of people. I think most people in Ireland tend to be turned off by insults and lies so I've never seen the likes of Iona as much of a threat. Due to the fact that Ireland is one of the last of places to legalise it out of the countries we most identify with I think people who generally support the status quo see gay marriage as being part of the status quo. I think because of this Iona is seen as a bit of a fringe group.

Maybe your experience has been different, I accept that.

Also, it's the increased visibility of gay people over the last 40 years which has gotten us to the point where marriage equality is now a real possibility - not hiding away out of sight and out of mind.

As much as some people like to complain about it "thrusting homosexuality into their faces", the in your face Pride movement went a long way to increasing acceptance for example.

I haven't read the article obviously, but I would imagine any undecided person would be more inclined to vote yes after reading an article about two men in love and in a committed relationship than anything else.

floggg · 13-02-2015 07:12PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Degrees of equality is not a contradiction in terms because we're talking about social equality not a mathematical equation.

You wouldn't go back to 1990 and say that people advocating for legalisation gayness but not gay marriage are anti-equality.

If I am only partially equally, I am not equally.

Either we are fully equal, or we are unequal. There is no middle ground.

Ave Sodalis · 13-02-2015 07:12PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Alright. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of people. I think most people in Ireland tend to be turned off by insults and lies so I've never seen the likes of Iona as much of a threat. Due to the fact that Ireland is one of the last of places to legalise it out of the countries we most identify with I think people who generally support the status quo see gay marriage as being part of the status quo. I think because of this Iona is seen as a bit of a fringe group.

Maybe your experience has been different, I accept that.

People tend to do very little thinking for themselves, it's not just an Irish thing. How many people actually question what they're told? Not many, which is why propaganda and rumours work so well. So if people get told all sorts of rubbish, most will believe it unless they've already educated themselves on the topic. If we adapt your approach, it's just enabling the No side to come up with more and more ridiculous and/or irrelevant arguments because they don't have a solid argument for themselves. Most of the Yes campaign is counteracting the No side because most people know what marriage involves.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 07:15PM

floggg wrote: »

Also, it's the increased visibility of gay people over the last 40 years which has gotten us to the point where marriage equality is now a real possibility - not hiding away out of sight and out of mind.

As much as some people like to complain about it "thrusting homosexuality into their faces", the in your face Pride movement went a long way to increasing acceptance for example.

I haven't read the article obviously, but I would imagine any undecided person would be more inclined to vote yes after reading an article about two men in love and in a committed relationship than anything else.

I think there's a difference between the long game and the short game. The Pride movement just opened the minds of the younger generation while the older generations died out. It didn't necessary change individual minds. But the vote will be in a few months so we can't count on the older generation dying out.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 07:17PM

floggg wrote: »

If I am only partially equally, I am not equally.

Either we are fully equal, or we are unequal. There is no middle ground.

Sorry, your attitude is all wrong. Not everyone thinks in such a dichotomous way so you have trouble identifying with people who do occupy the middle ground.

Zubeneschamali · 13-02-2015 08:11PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Fixed for you.

Your attitude fairly bigoted to be fair.

I'm bigoted now, because I won't put up with bigotry? I don't think so.

How about a cover with a big black guy hugging a red haired Irish woman- if that upset people, they'd be ...

racists, and feck them too.

marienbad · 13-02-2015 08:24PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Alright. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of people. I think most people in Ireland tend to be turned off by insults and lies so I've never seen the likes of Iona as much of a threat. Due to the fact that Ireland is one of the last of places to legalise it out of the countries we most identify with I think people who generally support the status quo see gay marriage as being part of the status quo. I think because of this Iona is seen as a bit of a fringe group.

Maybe your experience has been different, I accept that.

You might think you have a higher opinion of people but in fact you don't. You are advocating dishonesty and concealment which is in fact lying.

Keep those polls numbers up and you will see the no side become more extreme by the day and show their true colours

Run a clean campaign .don't get dragged into a dogfight on extraneous issues and trust the electorate . That will win the day .

K4t · 13-02-2015 08:33PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If that cover upsets them, they're bigots. Feck them.

I'm a huge fan of SSM and an active proponent of this referendum passing, but my initial reaction (like a lot of people if they're honest) was slight unease and uncertainty at seeing two men covered in tattoos, with piercings and goatees, with their hands around each other. It's a an initial judgement, based on superficial things, but things which a lot of people see as odd when associated with heterosexuals too. (look through after hours for threads on tattoos, beards, piercings etc.) It was only on repeated viewings of the picture that I saw the love they obviously have for each other, their smiles, and saw how happy both men were, and realised how normal and natural a thing it is, and who am I to judge people on such superficial things like I did. But I did. Because they were the first things I saw. And they are the first things NO voters will see, and the undecided and won't bother voting crowd! They might not give it a second and third look like I did or read the article which obviously will explain the guy's stories and how they're just people; Instead you could argue that people will stick to their bigoted convictions and superficial judgements, instead of seeing the guys as simply two individuals in love with each other. It could easily reinforce people's beliefs that it's a referendum for the gays, let them go vote! Now obviously, it is right that they went ahead with that cover instead of following my argument, but it might not have been the most sensible cover in the context of passing this damn thing.*cowers for safety*

Ave Sodalis · 13-02-2015 08:46PM

K4t wrote: »

I'm a huge fan of SSM and an active proponent of this referendum passing, but my initial reaction (like a lot of people if they're honest) was slight unease and uncertainty at seeing two men covered in tattoos, with piercings and goatees, with their hands around each other. It's a an initial judgement, based on superficial things, but things which a lot of people see as odd when associated with heterosexuals too. (look through after hours for threads on tattoos, beards, piercings etc.) It was only on repeated viewings of the picture that I saw the love they obviously have for each other, their smiles, and saw how happy both men were, and realised how normal and natural a thing it is, and who am I to judge people on such superficial things like I did. But I did. Because they were the first things I saw. And they are the first things NO voters will see, and the undecided and won't bother voting crowd! They might not give it a second and third look like I did or read the article which obviously will explain the guy's stories and how they're just people; Instead you could argue that people will stick to their bigoted convictions and superficial judgements, instead of seeing the guys as simply two individuals in love with each other. It could easily reinforce people's beliefs that it's a referendum for the gays, let them go vote! Now obviously, it is right that they went ahead with that cover instead of following my argument, but it might not have been the most sensible cover in the context of passing this damn thing.*cowers for safety*

I understand this but at the end of the day, isn't it their own prejudice that they need to get over? I mean, if you seen that picture on a regular basis, or pictures like it, would you even bat an eyelid at it? I just don't think people should hide who they are for the sake of a few votes from people who didn't realise what gay actually is.

Zubeneschamali · 13-02-2015 08:56PM

K4t wrote: »

Now obviously, it is right that they went ahead with that cover instead of following my argument, but it might not have been the most sensible cover in the context of passing this damn thing.

I am not content to just pass this thing apologetically, with the gayness hidden away behind closed doors in case it shocks someone.

I want to see tears in the eyes of the bigots as a big gay party dances by yelling "In your face!".

And I'm not even gay. I've just had enough of these reactionary bigots my whole life.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 09:04PM

marienbad wrote: »

You might think you have a higher opinion of people but in fact you don't. You are advocating dishonesty and concealment which is in fact lying.

Keep those polls numbers up and you will see the no side become more extreme by the day and show their true colours

Run a clean campaign .don't get dragged into a dogfight on extraneous issues and trust the electorate . That will win the day .

That's exactly what I'm advocating.

K4t · 13-02-2015 09:04PM

sup_dude wrote: »

I understand this but at the end of the day, isn't it their own prejudice that they need to get over? I mean, if you seen that picture on a regular basis, or pictures like it, would you even bat an eyelid at it? I just don't think people should hide who they are for the sake of a few votes from people who didn't realise what gay actually is.

Yes, of course it is. And yes maybe that is the way to go, because only then will the bigots not be able to ignore these people and their right to equality. We should not appease them nor ever drop down to their level. I look forward to that picture being republished on this thread when it passes in May.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not content to just pass this thing apologetically, with the gayness hidden away behind closed doors in case it shocks someone.

I want to see tears in the eyes of the bigots as a big gay party dances by yelling "In your face!".

And I'm not even gay. I've just had enough of these reactionary bigots my whole life.

And of course you are right. In fact I showed the picture to my father, who is 53 today, and he had the same reaction as me, except he didn't need repeated viewings. He just said the two men were in love and smiled and walked away. I have too little faith in people, but I can only be honest in my thoughts, and I think there is some truth to my post.

bodice ripper · 13-02-2015 09:05PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

That's politics.

And I'm no politician.

I daresay some people just get off on trying to get minorities to beg for fair treatment.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 09:06PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not content to just pass this thing apologetically, with the gayness hidden away behind closed doors in case it shocks someone.

I want to see tears in the eyes of the bigots as a big gay party dances by yelling "In your face!".

And I'm not even gay. I've just had enough of these reactionary bigots my whole life.

Well that's just classless and sad. If you can't be gracious in victory I don't want you on my team.

And with that attitude you don't really help the, "it's just about love" argument. You seem to be all about hatred of people who disagree with you.

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 09:09PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

And I'm no politician.

I daresay some people just get off on trying to get minorities to beg for fair treatment.

Virtually every law that ever got passed was originally a minority opinion.

bodice ripper · 13-02-2015 09:19PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

Virtually every law that ever got passed was originally a minority opinion.

I didn't say otherwise.

Lyaiera · 13-02-2015 09:37PM

A friend pointed out to me that gay marriage means I'll have to go to more weddings. And that means spending more money on hotels, transport, outfits and presents. Not to mention people who work having to waste their vacation days. I've moved to the "ban all marriage" camp. (I haven't really. I've moved to the, let's get married in a registry office and go to the pub afterwards camp.)

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 09:50PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

I didn't say otherwise.

Passing a law involves what some people with tender feelings like to call sucking up. It's actually just defending your position. As long as people's rights are political issues people will need to justify them. Don't get all bent out of shape over it.

pauliebdub · 13-02-2015 09:53PM

walshyn93 wrote: »

I've never seen the likes of Iona as much of a threat

I don't see them as much of a threat either. I've noticed in the past couple of debates that it's the same people in the no camp and I think their negative repetitive messages will wear thin after a while. I also don't think there is a great deal of public sympathy for their hardline views, few people want the Ireland of the past back.

What I find mindboggling is listening to a couple of older gay men in the debates who are against marriage equality. Do they not have any empathy for other gay people or have life experiences made them bitter?

walshyn93 · 13-02-2015 09:57PM

pauliebdub wrote: »

What I find mindboggling is listening to a couple of older gay men in the debates who are against marriage equality. Do they not have any empathy for other gay people or have life experiences made them bitter?

I haven't seen any of these men but I know they exist. I think people should take it as a sign that there is no right or wrong answer because no answer to this debate is value free. If you want to claim to be an open minded person you need to consider the possibility that there's something someone else knows that you don't.

How will you vote in the Marriage Equality referendum? Mod Note Post 1

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