Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

gaiscioch · 08-02-2015 12:41PM

Does anybody know how many researchers are in the employment of the ASTI and TUI? The reason I ask is that there is a singular absence of research being brought to the public's attention about what is going on in Irish secondary schools. Even most teachers are not politicised to the bigger picture within the system.

As somebody who teaches in a deprived school where some of the kids come straight from homeless shelters, many kids arrive early to be fed in the breakfast club, and most teachers give after school grinds simply because the parents could never afford to pay for grinds (and because the kids aren't given justice in the dysfunctional classes), no justice at all is being done to the jungle within which we work and all we give of ourselves because we see young lives that need practical help and positive role models to get out of where they are. This is the edge of society, and you feel it. Every day.

At so many remedial levels the system could not be organised worse - and the large class sizes and the range within the class are the outstanding issue for me and all my colleagues. But that would cost money to address so let's just ignore it and make up bullshít hours and bullshít debates shaped by wannabe Svengali types in the Department of Education and their sycophantic story-needing journalists in the so-called free press. That the very teachers who stay after school to help their students are the target for these people should be made known repeatedly.

It might also help if the next time Ed Walsh (who retired 17 years ago on a pension of over €300,000, and an annual top-up of over €100,000) comes on to smugly make dishonest claims about teachers' conditions, we had somebody there armed with facts from Ireland and abroad who could bring that pompous, deluded clown down. Both the heads of the ASTI and TUI were unable to confront him with facts when the three of them appeared on Prime Time last December. It would be absolutely refreshing to see that personification of smugness, and what he advocates from his ivory tower, destroyed.

katydid · 08-02-2015 06:12PM

man_no_plan wrote: »

So if there's 5/6 x 3 hours for pmts and 3 x 2 hour staff meetings, 1 per term as per m58/04 is that enough? How much for subject planning? How much for school development planning? Is one staff meeting per term enough?

How much of the croke park hours is used for waste of time stuff now? We don't go in for the whole school cpd of an uninteresting topic. Is that widespread?

I think I would be worth getting an answer on this, the unions will be going in soon to talk about this but they only consult with us afterwards. If we were to be proactive what would we see as what is necessary and what is excessive?

Would you support compulsory CPD in our own time for example?

It's impossible to quantify how many hours need to be given over to specific meetings - in FE, for example, where there are constant changes in the syllabus and very little teaching material available, we probably need more subject meetings than in a second level school, where the syllabus is more static, and textbooks are widely used. We don't have parent teacher meetings, so we have hours which need to be accounted for in other ways.

The use of CP hours seems to vary from school to school; more enlightened management are more flexible in their interpretation of the prerequisites.

I am not in favour of anything compulsory in our own time. Irish schools have existed for decades on the goodwill and the free time of teaching staff, for sports, drama, debate and even for class tutor work such as record keeping. It has what has made Irish schools the success they are, and all this has been undermined by the government introducing "teachers' detention". We have been forced to have this extra hour per week, as a window dressing exercise, while the countless hours given willingly have been discounted. Already the effect is showing; in most of the second level schools around here, the teachers no longer give their time after school to do sports training, instead coaches are brought in and have to be paid for by the parents or by the school. If you force teachers to do CPD in their own time, you will find that the goodwill is further withdrawn, and the whole thing would be counterproductive. Most teachers do CPD anyway, in their own time, because they want to, but you would create resentment if you were to force it.

A carrot rather than a stick approach might be more helpful, with days in lieu offered for training done outside the school year, such as primary teachers can avail of.

solerina · 08-02-2015 07:02PM

man_no_plan wrote: »

So if there's 5/6 x 3 hours for pmts and 3 x 2 hour staff meetings, 1 per term as per m58/04 is that enough? How much for subject planning? How much for school development planning? Is one staff meeting per term enough?

How much of the croke park hours is used for waste of time stuff now? We don't go in for the whole school cpd of an uninteresting topic. Is that widespread?

I think I would be worth getting an answer on this, the unions will be going in soon to talk about this but they only consult with us afterwards. If we were to be proactive what would we see as what is necessary and what is excessive?

Would you support compulsory CPD in our own time for example?

We are not allowed use the first 3 PTM for Croke Park hours at all....and we can only use one hour of each staff meeting too...something about the original idea of half in/half out. Talk about making the entire staff hate you....

man_no_plan · 08-02-2015 08:16PM

solerina wrote: »

We are not allowed use the first 3 PTM for Croke Park hours at all....and we can only use one hour of each staff meeting too...something about the original idea of half in/half out. Talk about making the entire staff hate you....

No of course. But in the context of the 33 hours plus 12 from 58/04.

If you take the half in hours out you get to 48 hours but then you buy the back out of the 33 to effectively cancel them out.

In effect there's 45 hours total. That's 21-24 hours depending on the no of ptms taking a min of five and a max of 6.

What I'm at is trying to figure how many of the 21 would you realistically need for effective school planning, subject planning and other school events such as open nights

Chancer3001 · 09-02-2015 10:49AM

Are schools better off since the 33 hours began? Or before they began?

I would say we are worse off. WHich is shocking considering it's 10 days extra work effectively.

We are worse off as it's just "busy time" filling slots with nonsense, and it has eroded good will from teachers as well as allowing less time to plan and correct.

katydid · 09-02-2015 12:51PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

Are schools better off since the 33 hours began? Or before they began?

I would say we are worse off. WHich is shocking considering it's 10 days extra work effectively.

We are worse off as it's just "busy time" filling slots with nonsense, and it has eroded good will from teachers as well as allowing less time to plan and correct.

Worse off; forced meetings at the end of a long day when everyone is tired, no time or inclination for giving extra time to students because of lack of appreciation of time already given, and general resentment...

km79 · 09-02-2015 09:11PM

no news from today yet? must be preparing a carefully worded statement....

evolving_doors · 09-02-2015 10:47PM

Doctors are being advised to say nay to the under 6 free GP today! So theres another refusal to impliment another whim that was being rammed through without consultation of stakeholders involved.
Wouldn't look good for an outright ' no' from teaching unions to be happening the same week. Maybe a mish mash of crazy options will come out on Friday before the holidays, then we'll end up tweeking this 'offer' untill we get sick of it and inevitably vote yes... sound familiar?

Teacher22 · 09-02-2015 10:50PM

I see the IMO have called for a full paycut reversal.......when will the teachers unions join in for teacher paycut restoration

km79 · 09-02-2015 11:05PM

Teacher22 wrote: »

I see the IMO have called for a full paycut reversal.......when will the teachers unions join in for teacher paycut restoration

full paycut reversal, pension levy AND getting rid of extra HRA hours
so basically doing away with HRA
they are dead right!

katydid · 09-02-2015 11:11PM

km79 wrote: »

full paycut reversal, pension levy AND getting rid of extra HRA hours
so basically doing away with HRA
they are dead right!

And pigs will fly...

Teacher22 · 09-02-2015 11:13PM

And teachers in my staff room often ask why there is such a low turn out for votes. I'm not the first to bash the ASTI but I'm beginning to lose confidence . Pat King? Not the best at putting the teachers voice out there.

km79 · 09-02-2015 11:18PM

katydid wrote: »

And pigs will fly...

yes but they have set out their stall nice and early ......and went strong from the start.they also have a leader who is able to speak properly and get across his points clearly .....

km79 · 11-02-2015 09:28AM

the union is holding back the news from Monday until Friday/mid term aren't they ........

deiseindublin · 11-02-2015 10:36AM

yeah, I can't understand what the delay with an update is.

doc_17 · 11-02-2015 02:06PM

I'd say the delay with an update speaks for itself. If proposals have been made then inevitably it will have to involve some form of continuous assessment and maybe some scraps thrown out such as allowing some of the Croke Park hours be used for carrying out the corrections/assessment. Or maybe a post thrown out to each school for coordinating the thing.

km79 · 11-02-2015 02:10PM

doc_17 wrote: »

I'd say the delay with an update speaks for itself. If proposals have been made then inevitably it will have to involve some form of continuous assessment and maybe some scraps thrown out such as allowing some of the Croke Park hours be used for carrying out the corrections/assessment. Or maybe a post thrown out to each school for coordinating the thing.

posts and money need to be kept COMPLETELY separate
if the unions have allowed them to muddy the waters with pay/money they have competely and utter failed.
that's a completely separate fight/issue and should be kept as such
anyway the delay speaks volumes and if they release details late Friday night or Saturday thinking people won't care enough to check ( most prob won't) they will have lost one member who does

doc_17 · 11-02-2015 02:18PM

km79 wrote: »

posts and money need to be kept COMPLETELY separate
if the unions have allowed them to muddy the waters with pay/money they have competely and utter failed.
that's a completely separate fight/issue and should be kept as such
anyway the delay speaks volumes and if they release details late Friday night or Saturday thinking people won't care enough to check ( most prob won't) they will have lost one member who does

I agree they should be kept separate but it might explain the statement released

The executive bodies of the ASTI and TUI today decided that the terms of reference for the independent chairperson of the Junior Cycle talks be amended, in the current circumstances, in order to allow him to bring forward a range of possibilities which are non-binding which may form the basis for progress.
Any such proposals must follow from further representations from TUI/ASTI with a view to clarifying our joint position.
No further comment will be made by the unions at this stage.

So maybe it's to allow discuss such things?

km79 · 11-02-2015 02:19PM

doc_17 wrote: »

I agree they should be kept separate but it might explain the statement released

The executive bodies of the ASTI and TUI today decided that the terms of reference for the independent chairperson of the Junior Cycle talks be amended, in the current circumstances, in order to allow him to bring forward a range of possibilities which are non-binding which may form the basis for progress.
Any such proposals must follow from further representations from TUI/ASTI with a view to clarifying our joint position.
No further comment will be made by the unions at this stage.

So maybe it's to allow discuss such things?

that statement is open to a few interpretations and that is certainly one of them

acequion · 11-02-2015 06:26PM

I've deliberately kept away from this thread recently,as like many others,I get completely overwhelmed with worry about the state of things and every so often need to bow out of debate and clear the head.

But logging back on again today makes for some riveting reading with wonderful posts. However,the term "self fulfilling prophecy" comes to mind when noting the negative tones of some posters. Negativity will not get us anywhere, has NEVER got us anywhere, and it's still very much game on in a game that we MUST win. Before I took my little sabbatical from this thread [8 days ago] I posted with information from my branch meeting, where myself and others grilled our branch representative on how matters stand and here is a summary:

Both TUI and ASTI holding firm on no teacher assessment.
Feedback from striking teachers nationwide also a no surrender.
Pat King wants a resolution before talks on pay restoration,so that both issues remain separate.
Some concession will have to be given to the minister so that she doesn't "lose face". When questioned about what this might be we were told it could be some kind of form filling or box ticking,though as yet nothing concrete decided.

Now don't get me wrong here,folks. I would be quite a militant, not one to be easily fobbed off and was utterly demoralised with the unions after the capitulation on HR. Also, I would be apprehensive as to how far they'll go to save the minister from losing face and suspicious of what this "form filling" malarky might be.I would also have little sympathy with saving the minister's face but I guess that's how negotiation works. However, I am prepared to give the unions the benefit of the doubt and reserve judgement until we see what they come up with. Pat King was well aware of the enormous resentment felt by many after HR. Does he really want to let us down again? Especially after the loss of two days' pay!

All I am saying is that we really need to stop this constantly expecting the worst. We're all apprehensive,yes, but let's see what happens and if we don't like what is proposed then let's fight like tigers for a rejection.

Icsics · 11-02-2015 06:39PM

That's exactly what our Rep told us too Acequion. Suggestion that these 'forms' relate to the non academic side, for eg rating students behaviour/attitude etc. By the way, Pat King is retiring in December!

acequion · 11-02-2015 10:40PM

Thanks Iscics. I suggest that everyone else grill their reps and attend all their branch meetings at this crucial time. Posting here predicting doom and gloom is not helping anyone.

Thanks too for the news that Pat King is going. I could be completely wrong but you'd imagine he'd prefer to leave having finally achieved something for his members!

km79 · 12-02-2015 12:32AM

acequion wrote: »

Thanks Iscics. I suggest that everyone else grill their reps and attend all their branch meetings at this crucial time. Posting here predicting doom and gloom is not helping anyone.

Thanks too for the news that Pat King is going. I could be completely wrong but you'd imagine he'd prefer to leave having finally achieved something for his members!

I heard that last week too but said Id wait till it was common knowledge. You could also look at it like this.......he will probably end up with a job on a state board........so who will he want to please out of these talks? He won't give a damn about leaving a legacy with us. well not a positive one! its a job for him pure and simple and he will be moving on to another one .

acequion · 12-02-2015 12:48AM

km79 wrote: »

I heard that last week too but said Id wait till it was common knowledge. You could also look at it like this.......he will probably end up with a job on a state board........so who will he want to please out of these talks? He won't give a damn about leaving a legacy with us. well not a positive one! its a job for him pure and simple and he will be moving on to another one .

There's two ways of looking at it km79, ie as emboldened above or else that he will have some professional pride and won't want to be seen as a failure.I would hedge my bets on the latter,but time will tell.Also,remember that there are other players in this game and that it's not up to him alone.

gaiscioch · 12-02-2015 06:22PM

Icsics wrote: »

By the way, Pat King is retiring in December!

"Listen, Pat, if you get this one through on your side we'll look after you with a few appointments to state bodies after the fuss has died down in six months or so. Nice little addition to the old pension if you play this one right."

Watch this space.

km79 · 12-02-2015 06:29PM

gaiscioch wrote: »

"Listen, Pat, if you get this one through on your side we'll look after you with a few appointments to state bodies after the fuss has died down in six months or so. Nice little addition to the old pension if you play this one right."

Watch this space.

yes I think its bad news
if this is the case he has nothing to gain by looking out for us......

2011abc · 12-02-2015 09:00PM

Wouldnt be the first time the union had been embezzled (and yes I WOULD consider taking a salary while blatantly playing for the other team that.) by its Gen Sec.Fool me once ....The last guy got a 200k payout/buyout ...Forget the lessons of history at your peril .

evolving_doors · 12-02-2015 09:36PM

2011abc wrote: »

Wouldnt be the first time the union had been embezzled (and yes I WOULD consider taking a salary while blatantly playing for the other team that.) by its Gen Sec.Fool me once ....The last guy got a 200k payout/buyout ...Forget the lessons of history at your peril .

Hold on there now.. just to clarify. Are you using the term 'embezzle' loosely (as in; not doing their job to what you deem to be the in line with what they are paid to do!) or are you suggesting that someone in the ASTIis actively misappropriating funds from parts of the organisation for their own financial gain? I think you would need to be careful about suggesting criminality without any evidence.

MOD

acequion · 12-02-2015 09:46PM

Why are you guys [km79,2011abc] so utterly wedded to pessimism? And ok we all know that you're sugared off with Pat King et al and we all know their record to date, but jeez,you're like scrooge,humbug!

Apart from the constant predictions of apocalypse which are nothing more than speculation,do you have any concrete information to pass on?

Because if not it's no wonder people [like yours truly] sometimes run from this thread, given the negativity.It really isn't helpful!

km79 · 12-02-2015 09:55PM

acequion wrote: »

Why are you guys [km79,2011abc] so utterly wedded to pessimism? And ok we all know that you're sugared off with Pat King et al and we all know their record to date, but jeez,you're like scrooge,humbug!

Apart from the constant predictions of apocalypse which are nothing more than speculation,do you have any concrete information to pass on?

Because if not it's no wonder people [like yours truly] sometimes run from this thread, given the negativity.It really isn't helpful!

because it has been the reality for the past few years. simple as that.
I really hope I'm wrong but it's following a very very familiar pattern.....why no update since Monday ? when will we get one ? tomorrow night maybe Saturday of the holidays? sounds familiar right .........Pat King is retiring in December that is a fact. He has not had our interests at heart for the last few years .This is also a fact.. I witnessed his absolutely disgusting condescending apathetic attitude first hand when he came to our school last year. The union was directing a NO on HRA but he was doing something else.
I have absolutely NO FAITH in him doing what's best for us . I don't trust him. That's why I'm so negative /a realist
The union entered these talks saying they would walk away if any form of teacher assessment remained. They have not walked away. Does that mean the assessment has been removed OR they are going to comeback with a "deal" including teacher assessment (which we went on strike for 2 days for in last 2 months )????
I have contacted asti 3 times this week asking when we will get an update. No reply

Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert **See Mod Warning Post #1**

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1