Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 12:10PM

niamhstokes wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZwJDPaWsaA

I don't want to.
Thank god for free will.
(though we still can't seem to get a theist to tell us what that is)

niamhstokes · 05-02-2015 12:11PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't want to.
Thank god for free will.
(though we still can't seem to get a theist to tell us what that is)

The Secrets of Fatima Mother Mary told us.

floggg · 05-02-2015 12:12PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Is making us read that drivel a bad thing happening to good people?
Just from page 1 is all the stuff we've been through many times here already. Why does god need to prepare us for anything through suffering? What's the point? What does he get out of it?

Life is all one big S&M session to god.

Calibos · 05-02-2015 12:49PM

You know religion is a problem when even random Palestinians surveyed in Hebron say that the main problem is their religious mutters and the Israeli religious nutters.

Wacker The Attacker · 05-02-2015 01:16PM

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

timetogo · 05-02-2015 01:21PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

Because a lot of people believe in god(s) and run their lives based on what they think these gods want.
Some would like to dictate how others run their lives based on the gods of their region.

timetogo · 05-02-2015 01:25PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

Because a lot of people believe in god(s) and run their lives based on what they think these gods want.
Some would like to dictate how others run their lives based on the gods of their region.

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

I'm sure there were lots of times in history where people said "we'll never know that so why bother".

PopePalpatine · 05-02-2015 01:28PM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Even in recent times: Knock, Fatima, Medjugorje to name a few???

Are those incidents peer-reviewed?

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 01:28PM

timetogo wrote: »

I'm sure there were lots of times in history where people said "we'll never know that so why bother".

Outside of theology, I can think of no examples. Can you?

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 01:31PM

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

Wacker The Attacker · 05-02-2015 01:33PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

How are we supposed to answer that question when we don't know for sure if a god exists or not?

timetogo · 05-02-2015 01:35PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Outside of theology, I can think of no examples. Can you?

What do you mean? Where the argument was accepted? Of course not. It's not a valid argument and the day we stop questioning because we think a question is too hard or because "god" will be a sad day.

There are examples where the argument might have held up people. E.g. Newton thought that the solar systems gravity was helped by god
e.g. "we can't ever know what is causing this, so ..... god".
If everybody had accepted that as good enough then science wouldn't be where it is today.

Questioning what happens to us (if anything) after death might be explained satisfactorily by science some day.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 01:41PM

timetogo wrote: »

Questioning what happens to us (if anything) after death might be explained satisfactorily by science some day.

This is already explained by science.

timetogo · 05-02-2015 01:42PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is already explained by science.

Well then there's nothing to discuss. Can you send on the memo to the pope.

Dan_Solo · 05-02-2015 01:43PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

How are we supposed to answer that question when we don't know for sure if a god exists or not?

Well perhaps I'm wasting my time yet again hoping for a logical discussion (not talking about you here) but I was hoping some theists here who think they know about these things could answer.
If theists want to propose god gave us free will then they should perhaps know whether god can predict what we will do with this free will?

danrua01 · 05-02-2015 01:50PM

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

Ghost Buster · 05-02-2015 02:11PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If your child does something wrong, does it mean the parent did it?

If the parent were all powerful, existing outside of space and time and able to predict the future and allowed the child to do something with huge future consequences involving original sin, eternal damnation and hey!!! Bone cancer in children and worms who exist to burrow out of human eye balls
Then yeah, the parent did it!

ch750536 · 05-02-2015 02:14PM

danrua01 wrote: »

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

Again, nobody ever says

You must have had someone watching over you. You have driven for 33 years accident free then they ****ed you up to try and kill you.
Bastard angels.

danrua01 · 05-02-2015 02:15PM

ch750536 wrote: »

Again, nobody ever says

Exactly! Like this god or angel allowed me to thrown into the path of an oncoming lorry...but he didn't kill me! So he must be good!

cork guitar player · 05-02-2015 02:17PM

All these man made religions are a crock of sh1te.

That's not to say that there are not utterly unknowable things in the universe, dark matter etc. Who knows?

Like my dog cannot comprehend the TV.

Ghost Buster · 05-02-2015 02:21PM

niamhstokes wrote: »

The Secrets of Fatima Mother Mary told us.

She didnt though. She told them to a few wee girleens and then swore them to secrecy. Very poor PR

Calibos · 05-02-2015 02:27PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

I'd imagine its a bit like what the 14 billion years before I was conceived was like for me.

COYVB · 05-02-2015 02:30PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

a) We\They\It confirm their existence
b) We\They\It confirm their non-existence

You can't prove something doesn't exist, you can only show how unlikely it is

ScumLord · 05-02-2015 03:12PM

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

What is the point in discussing something that nobody knows the answer to and never will until they die.

How will humankind ever know if a god exists unless

As far as I can tell god was invented by a particular group of people, well, many gods were created by many different peoples the jewish/christian/muslim one is the one that survived and flourished. We can trace the history of these peoples right back to the time they came up with their holy books. So you don't so much have to disprove god you just have to decide whether these people could really be trusted to know what they were talking about, and I don't think they are a dependable source so the god they described isn't valid IMO.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well, I'll put it to the floor again then:
Can god predict what people will do or not?

It's possible, it's becoming clear to us that humans are machines of habit. Which could mean he never gave us free will at all.

floggg · 05-02-2015 03:15PM

danrua01 wrote: »

Had a bad car accident, and comments from some people instantly made me think of this thread. Two people on the scene both commented that I must have had someone looking over me as I'm still alive.

I don't understand this logic. It wasn't a spiritual being that caused me not to die, but safety measures put in by the manufacturers of the vehicle and motorway maintenance people.

I always read about people having such experiences and putting their thoughts towards faith, or converting to a faith. Not at all, I don't think it wouldve made the experience any easier if I had some religious inclinations, but it helps a lot of other people in these situations, and that can be good..

What I find stupid about that saying is that surely if you had somebody looking over you, they would have helped you avoid the crash in the first place, no?

To be in an accident in the first place, your luck must be bad!

ScumLord · 05-02-2015 03:18PM

floggg wrote: »

To be in an accident in the first place, your luck must be bad!

No, god lets you crash so he can answer your parents prayers for a speedy recovery.

floggg · 05-02-2015 03:24PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It's possible, it's becoming clear to us that humans are machines of habit. Which could mean he never gave us free will at all.

As I said

floggg wrote: »

If you say God is all seeing and knowing, then God cannot say he gave us free will or be disappointed when we go astray. If God created man, with all his baser instincts, immoral tendencies and weakness then God knew who we would behave once he set us out into the world.

He could foresee all the evil we were capable of doing from the outset - yet still built us this way. If we do bad things, it's because the nature he gave us.

So he cannot disclaim responsibility for it when we are just acting in accordance with the design. Think of us like windows vista - yes, are flawed and horrible to deal with at times, but ultimately you have to blame microsoft (God) for that.

The only alternative is to conclude that God didn't have any idea how things would turn out and was hoping for the best, in which case he's hardly the all seeing and all powerful being he's claimed to be, now is he.

Further, you cannot say he gives us free will if he created us with inherent lustsful desires, tempers, anger and greed.

If for example we are meant to have free will in the sexual realm, why design us to crave sex? And if he doesn't wish to practice certain sexual practices, such as homosexuality, why create some of us gay? Why design us to want the one thing you told us we can't have?

It's akin to forcefully injected somebody with heroin until they are hooked, then leaving them alone with a syringe and a kilo of heroin and telling them it's their choice whether to use it not.

Sure, they have a choice but you've made it nearly impossible for them to say no.

So that's not true free will, and God is a dick for stacking the deck against you like that.

.

Canis Lupus · 05-02-2015 03:29PM

Recently diagnosed with cancer (hodge, super curable so I'm not fishing for thanks) but the nurse in the chemo ward asked me if I believed in god, then said she did and then said I'm sure he'll give you strength to get through this because he's great.

I held my tongue as she was giving me lifesaving treatment and waving needles about but I almost asked if she'd actually looked around the ward at all the walking shells of people and why has her god given us all cancer in the first f*cking place. Religious people blow my mind at how they can compartmentalise all the ****ty things away like that.

jobbridge4life · 05-02-2015 03:39PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Recently diagnosed with cancer (hodge, super curable so I'm not fishing for thanks) but the nurse in the chemo ward asked me if I believed in god, then said she did and then said I'm sure he'll give you strength to get through this because he's great.

I held my tongue as she was giving me lifesaving treatment and waving needles about but I almost asked if she'd actually looked around the ward at all the walking shells of people and why has her god given us all cancer in the first f*cking place. Religious people blow my mind at how they can compartmentalise all the ****ty things away like that.

Isn't that part of the reason religious belief endures? Its utility.

floggg · 05-02-2015 03:58PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Isn't that part of the reason religious belief endures? Its utility.

That's the appealing part of it.

But it really does require you to suspend all logical faculties to embrace it.

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

Comments