Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

danrua01 · 03-02-2015 04:49PM

TireeTerror wrote: »

Offence is a very personal thing. You should not allow yourself to be offended by the opinion of another.

The whole "you should respect what others believe" is nonsense, its pandering to the weak of mind. It is precisely this kind of sentimentality which is damaging to the advancement of society.

Please don't be offended, then, when I share my opinion that you are an absolute b*stard and would like to see you shot.

It's not "weak" to respect what others believe and let them live their lives.

seamus · 03-02-2015 04:50PM

pueblo wrote: »

What if God is that alien? Imagine the shame...:D

Then he's not God, he's an alien

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

pueblo · 03-02-2015 04:52PM

seamus wrote: »

Then he's not God, he's an alien

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

No, then he would be an Alien-God.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 04:55PM

pueblo wrote: »

Unfortunately the only way to 'understand' spirituality is to experience it, using your spirit, not your mind.

Again the thesaurus theism. I don't have a spirit because there is no such thing. It cannot be demonstrated to me in any fashion by another person.

dark crystal · 03-02-2015 04:55PM

Terrlock wrote: »

It's not about trouble and I pray that some how Steven Fry will be saved.

It's simply when God confronts him, he will know instantly the Glory of God.

You say you're not talking about trouble, yet you go on to say you pray that Steven Fry will be saved. From what exactly?

Also I am not lying when I say that everyone knows God exists.

Even the hidden tribes in the Amazon know of God.

You are lying when you say everyone knows God exists, though. It has never been proven and many people look for proof before blindly believing in something. I don't believe God exists, therefore your statement is wrong. Believe what you like, but it is supremely arrogant to speak on behalf of everybody.

The Bible says that God reveals Himself to us through nature:…because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

With all due respect, I don't put any store in what The Bible says any more than I put any store in What the Qu'ran says or what Hans Christian Anderson says.

Until definitive proof is forthcoming on God's existence, I'll continue to listen to actual real men and women who have come up with actual real evidence for where all that nature stuff came from. I believe in Dinosaurs because we can prove they existed even though we can't see them anymore. I don't believe that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve because it makes about as much logical sense as Alice in Wonderland.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 04:59PM

danrua01 wrote: »

Please don't be offended, then, when I share my opinion that you are an absolute b*stard and would like to see you shot.

But that isn't a critique of an opinion at all. Is that so hard to understand?

TireeTerror · 03-02-2015 05:05PM

danrua01 wrote: »

Please don't be offended, then, when I share my opinion that you are an absolute b*stard and would like to see you shot.

It's not "weak" to respect what others believe and let them live their lives.

I think you should have a wee cup of tea and calm down.

I wonder what you would think if I decided to write a book extolling the glory of molesting innocent children. I would promise an eternity of joy and wonder for those who tampered with children and babies. I would call it my bible. I would threaten an eternity of suffering to those who did not follow my every word.

For those that did decide to follow this "bible", would you so generously afford them the respect to carry on with their beliefs?

An extreme example for sure, but I could provide hundreds if not tens of thousands of examples of vile barbaric actions by the Catholic Church over the years, and these things are ongoing.

When believers are so willing to turn away from the truth of religion, despite their leaders abusing children in this very country, and the elders then covering it up, I will not respect them, for they are weak and worthy of no respect.

EDIT: Actually believers in religion are not necessarily weak, I have been too harsh and too quick to judge. With more thought they are actually victims themselves and they require assistance to try and awaken them from a lifetime of brainwashing. Its unlikely to help though, the best bet is to loosen the shackles of religion in the schools and eventually with each passing generation, religion will die.

danrua01 · 03-02-2015 05:06PM

Oh dear. Enjoy your trolling, anyway.

TireeTerror · 03-02-2015 05:10PM

danrua01 wrote: »

Oh dear. Enjoy your trolling, anyway.

Will you say a prayer for me?

pueblo · 03-02-2015 05:12PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Again the thesaurus theism. I don't have a spirit because there is no such thing. It cannot be demonstrated to me in any fashion by another person.

What is this thesaurus theism you keep mentioning? Word worship??

You seem to think language somehow doesn't matter.. ..it does....

Proof you have spirit may be something that can be demonstrated sooner than you think. The Double Slit experiment seems to imply that reality is created by consciousness... what do you think the implications of that would mean for the possibility of the existence of a God?

"The QMP (quantum measurement problem) is a problem because it violates the common-sense doctrine of realism, which assumes that the world at large is independent of observation.

If that doctrine turns out to be even slightly wrong, then some aspect of consciousness may play a key role in the manifestation of the physical world, as some of the world's esoteric and mystical traditions, and a good portion of Eastern philosophy, have long maintained."

http://www.noetic.org/blog/double-slit-in-physics-essays/

Terrlock · 03-02-2015 05:13PM

dark crystal wrote: »

You say you're not talking about trouble, yet you go on to say you pray that Steven Fry will be saved. From what exactly?

You are lying when you say everyone knows God exists, though. It has never been proven and many people look for proof before blindly believing in something. I don't believe God exists, therefore your statement is wrong. Believe what you like, but it is supremely arrogant to speak on behalf of everybody.

With all due respect, I don't put any store in what The Bible says any more than I put any store in What the Qu'ran says or what Hans Christian Anderson says.

Until definitive proof is forthcoming on God's existence, I'll continue to listen to actual real men and women who have come up with actual real evidence for where all that nature stuff came from. I believe in Dinosaurs because we can prove they existed even though we can't see them anymore. I don't believe that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve because it makes about as much logical sense as Alice in Wonderland.

I would pray that Steven Fry to be saved from the 2nd death.

Also again we don't need evidence that god exists as it's plainly obvious to all who don't deny him that he does exist. It's so obvious it is foolishness to even argue over it.

You don't want to believe in him, as you know if you do, you'd have to change your ways. You like your sinful ways and living your life they way you think is best. The lord gives you over to this. He does not try and change your mind. In fact he willingly allows you to deny him.

danrua01 · 03-02-2015 05:14PM

TireeTerror wrote: »

Will you say a prayer for me?

Nah, I'm not religious! I'll throw a penny into the Trevi fountain next time I'm there, though.

ScumLord · 03-02-2015 05:14PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Also what primitive farmers are your referring too? How were they primitive?

According to the almighty google and wiki gods the Jews that wrote the bible wouldn't have been primitive. Not being able to write is a sign of a primitive peoples.

What basic understanding of the earth and universe did they not have?

Pretty much everything, they didn't know they were standing on a planet, they didn't know about the universe, they didn't know the sun was a star, they didn't know what lightning was, the list is virtually endless.

I have everlasting life, do you?

Nana nana bo bo.

ScumLord · 03-02-2015 05:17PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Also again we don't need evidence that god exists as it's plainly obvious to all who don't deny him that he does exist. It's so obvious it is foolishness to even argue over it.

How is it obvious? If the bible didn't exist neither would the god it describes.

You don't want to believe in him, as you know if you do, you'd have to change your ways.

This is simply delusional.

TireeTerror · 03-02-2015 05:18PM

Terrlock wrote: »

I would pray that Steven Fry to be saved from the 2nd death.

Also again we don't need evidence that god exists as it's plainly obvious to all who don't deny him that he does exist. It's so obvious it is foolishness to even argue over it.

You don't want to believe in him, as you know if you do, you'd have to change your ways. You like your sinful ways and living your life they way you think is best. The lord gives you over to this. He does not try and change your mind. In fact he willingly allows you to deny him.

Are you actually serious in this post? If you are, I actually do not even know what to say. It is incredulous and quite fascinating.

However I just cannot bring myself to believe that you believe this, because you must be trolling for sure.

2015dude · 03-02-2015 05:18PM

pueblo wrote: »

What if God is that alien? Imagine the shame...:D

A good point u make

K4t · 03-02-2015 05:19PM

Emersyn Deep Destroyer wrote: »

Why is a scientist of faith not a real believer. I'm a scientist and don't see myself as any different to any one else at mass on a Sunday just because of my chosen career.

Firstly, I will concede to you that the world can never be rid of religion. And that is because it can never be rid of the human impulses behind it; Fear, Hatred, Anti-Intellectualism, Sadism, Masochism, Sexism. All the same really. Religion is a part of all humans; the worst part. It is a fight against our own nature. For example, The Nazis built motorways (good things), but their defining characteristics, the things which they were really about, were evil. What religion does well most social organisations do well; Tennis clubs, gaa clubs, charities, rotary clubs etc. Now to answer your question..

But what really makes a religion? What is the necessary condition? An exclusive faith that trumps other sources of truth. You might say what is wrong with that when we have so many educated religious people like yourself, scientists, mathematicians, philosophers etc.? It's because it is an intellectual contradiction; To think scientifically about the rest of your life, but to leave your enquiring, rationalist self at the door of the church. The scientists, the mathematicians, the philosophers who all hold religious beliefs are engaged in compartmentalized thinking. And it is so common because it is socially conditioned and culturally pervasive and a part of human nature as I've said. What's wrong with that you say? The scientists and mathematicians religious belief perpetuates faith. It gives the "real believers" intellectual cover, many of whom involve extremists and Jihadists and so on. And how is that the scientists and mathematicians fault? It's not either, there is nothing wrong with having faith per se, but it does involve a scary amount of doublethink and it can be dangerous as I'll explain.

And the main reason why it can be dangerous is because the "real believers", who are given intellectual cover by the intelligent, rational, more enlightened people of faith like presumably yourself, are the ones who lobby our governments in the name of religion and religious beliefs and attempt to force their beliefs on others. And governments are delighted to give in. Really, it's the moderates who are the greatest threat, the liberal apologists if you like. It's why say Cameron and Blair support faith schools in Britain and a string of same such measures in Ireland exist.

So I hope you understand from this post that when I criticise religion and religious belief I am not intending to personally cause you or any other person of faith personal harm. It is not in my nature believe it or not! I simply want to see a secular Irish state and for everyone to be free to practice and believe whatever they want, and for nothing to be free from criticism or even offence, and everyone equal under the law.

And any hope there is of that happening relies ultimately on freedom of speech and expression (getting rid of that blasphemy law first). And of course then a move towards a secular Irish state with separation of church and state in the constitution. Everyone will be free and equal under the law.

robinph · 03-02-2015 05:24PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Also again we don't need evidence that god exists as it's plainly obvious to all who don't deny him that he does exist. It's so obvious it is foolishness to even argue over it.

Humour us and show us some of this proof then. Or is the proof only available to you?

folan · 03-02-2015 05:28PM

RobertKK wrote: »

They are taught the national curriculum, with good education outcomes.

the national curriculum with, in these cases, additional material accounting to specific religions.

dark crystal · 03-02-2015 05:28PM

Terrlock wrote: »

I would pray that Steven Fry to be saved from the 2nd death.

Aah, so he WIILL be in trouble then. A second death on top of the first one? Harsh!

Also again we don't need evidence that god exists as it's plainly obvious to all who don't deny him that he does exist. It's so obvious it is foolishness to even argue over it.

You're right. Proof is so overrated.

You don't want to believe in him, as you know if you do, you'd have to change your ways. You like your sinful ways and living your life they way you think is best. The lord gives you over to this. He does not try and change your mind. In fact he willingly allows you to deny him.

That's jolly good of him! The troublesome thing is, he apparantly created us all with original sin, so we were all pretty much doomed before we even started.

Like you say, I'll just keep living my life of sin, the sin God kindly bestowed upon me at birth and wait until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil to get the proof I've been after, ever hoping he'll provide me with a satisfactory answer as to why he allows such misery to exist in this wonderful world he created for us all to suffer through as eternal sinners.

I'm presuming he'll just give the aul' free will speech, though. Covers a multitude of hard questions, that one.

Donkey Oaty · 03-02-2015 05:36PM

The best way to test the existence of God is to pray for something entirely random that would not ordinarily happen in a sane universe and see if it is granted.

For example, recently I prayed for a giant statue of The Stig from Top Gear to appear in Warsaw and also for a UKIP MP to tweet an invitation to play a game of "Hello Kitty World".

Needless to say, neither of these things have come true, otherwise I would have heard about them - but if they do, I'll start believing.

Hyzepher · 03-02-2015 05:38PM

Isn't religious belief a victim of geography?

How many believers, Catholics for the most part on this thread, could claim that if born in a Muslim, Buddhist or Communist environment could find their way back to their one "true" belief?

Followers of the bible aren't even in the majority worldwide.

If you choose to believe in god then fine go ahead - it requires blind faith in a belief handed down to you based on the geographical location of your birth.

But don't think that you can explain it any other way. It's blind faith.

Is there any other part of your life that you live so diligently based on blind faith? Or do you actually decide other things rationally.

If so why?

jobbridge4life · 03-02-2015 05:39PM

Hyzepher wrote: »

Isn't religious belief a victim of geography?

And/or time.

Dan_Solo · 03-02-2015 05:39PM

pueblo wrote: »

What is this thesaurus theism you keep mentioning? Word worship??

You seem to think language somehow doesn't matter.. ..it does....

Proof you have spirit may be something that can be demonstrated sooner than you think. The Double Slit experiment seems to imply that reality is created by consciousness...

No it doesn't.
Thesaurus theism is you saying you're not trying to say there's a god... but how about a spirit? Same crap. No thanks.

pueblo · 03-02-2015 05:50PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No it doesn't.
Thesaurus theism is you saying you're not trying to say there's a god... but how about a spirit? Same crap. No thanks.

Have a look at the Double Slit experiment....I would be interested to hear your 'logical' reasons for why reality seems to change if it's being observed.

Come on...open your mind a little...at least have a brief read of the findings of the experiment and let me know your thoughts. You have a duty as a rationalist.

03-02-2015 05:51PM

RobertKK wrote: »

you would see there that people will pay for the sins of their ancestors

I know I'm late to the party but this jumped out at me.

So, say one of my ancestors was a thoroughly unsavoury person who didn't believe in god. When they die, surely they are then condemed to hell as a punishment for their sins and rejection of god.

Why, are the descendants of this person responsible for their actions? That doesn't seem very fair. If that is the case does this mean that god is also guilty of breaking his own rules, since he created man who is now considered to be inherently born with sin.

If I have to retrospectively atone for the sins of my ancestors, then surely god should also atone retrospectively for his sins.

Terrlock · 03-02-2015 05:56PM

ScumLord wrote: »

According to the almighty google and wiki gods the Jews that wrote the bible wouldn't have been primitive. Not being able to write is a sign of a primitive peoples.

So if they wrote the bible...they weren't primitive.

Also are you sure it was just the Jews who wrote the bible?

ScumLord wrote: »

Pretty much everything, they didn't know they were standing on a planet, they didn't know about the universe, they didn't know the sun was a star, they didn't know what lightning was, the list is virtually endless.

Nana nana bo bo.

That's just made up - They must have known a lot of those things as the bible talks about them. In fact many of the scientific facts the bible talks about weren't discovered to be true for centuries later by scientists.

mikom · 03-02-2015 06:01PM

Terrlock wrote: »

They must have known a lot of those things as the bible talks about them. In fact many of the scientific facts the bible talks about weren't discovered to be true for centuries later by scientists.

Which of the hundreds of re-writes of the bible was this again?

Arne_Saknussem · 03-02-2015 06:02PM

Terrlock wrote: »

It's not about trouble and I pray that some how Steven Fry will be saved.

It's simply when God confronts him, he will know instantly the Glory of God.

He will know in a microsecond that the case he wishes to argue is complete non sense and have absolutely know grounding or significance and he will know that God is Just. God will never need to defend himself from any accusations. Your own heart and spirit will testify to the Lord.

Also I am not lying when I say that everyone knows God exists.

Even the hidden tribes in the Amazon know of God.

The Bible says that God reveals Himself to us through nature:…because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse

You keep quoting from the Bible is if it's not a load of made up nonsense, full of contradictions and misinformation.

Terrlock · 03-02-2015 06:03PM

TireeTerror wrote: »

Are you actually serious in this post? If you are, I actually do not even know what to say. It is incredulous and quite fascinating.

However I just cannot bring myself to believe that you believe this, because you must be trolling for sure.

I assure you I'm not trolling and I stand by what I said.

Scripture teaches that all men know of God, however they deny his existence.

Stephen Fry on confronting god after death

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