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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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    #752
    sfakiaman
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭sfakiaman


    Got mine in before the deadline. A very long time since I wrote a dissertation and it doesn't get any easier. I will have to add to it for the next one.


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    #753
    PatterdalePup
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭PatterdalePup


    I just managed to get my submission in on time. I'd really have preferred to have made a more detailed submission backed up with facts and verifiable stats e.g. the UK ban on handguns has been mentioned by AGS - a fact that is omitted is that since the handgun ban (and the subsequent surrendering of licensed handguns out of circulation) in Britain, crimes with firearms increased year on year for almost a decade (I'd like to see figures for the number of un-licensed firearms used - I'll see if I can find them).

    What in effect happened as a knee jerk reaction to Dunblane was that law abiding firearms (handguns) owners in Britain were criminalised while the Police failed to reduce crimes involving guns by criminals, they actually increased.

    I'm amazed that AGS give an excuse for not giving receipts as being a cost issue. It's a BS excuse anyway, but someone in the Committee should be pulling them up on it. A simple word doc (download template) could be included in licensing application that could be co-signed at the desk when submitting a licence application. AGS don't need to necessarily keep a copy of the receipt themselves, though they should. There is a minuscule cost/effort to this. It should be Standard Operating Procedure.


    The dirty tricks being played by AGS with regards to current licence applications needed to be and exposed and highlighted along with the dishonest omission of key facts with regards the proposed legislation. Ideally, this should be done at a Committee discussion aswell - of course that means having someone knowledgeable there as part of the discussion.

    To be fair to many of the others in that discussion that day, they were just parroting what they thought to be true. The Chief Super knew he was being dishonest.


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    #754
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks wrote: »
    ...and sent. Attached to this in case anyone is interested.

    There really are some doozies in the stats. Example - they said 8.6 firearms per 100 people.

    200,436 firearms in 4,609,600 people is 4.3 firearms per 100 people, not 8.6

    8.6 turns out to be from the Small Arms Survey 2007 (or wikipedia) and is based on the inclusion of an estimated 150,000 illegally held firearms in the number (and the smaller 4.1 million population in 2005).

    But even if you didn't know where it came from, you can do that division in your head well enough to see it's wrong (2/46 = 1/23 which is close to one twentieth which is 5%, not 8%).

    Anyway, I could have gone on for a week (actually, I did - it took so long to write this because I got it proofread and the defamation alarms went off and I had to go edit it down with a chainsaw, it's now half the length it started out as).

    Anyone still working on theirs, hurry up, you have 38 minutes left to get it in for the 3pm deadline.

    Anyone else want to share theirs?

    Well written Sparks.Makes my magnum opus look tiedious in comparison.Basically mine has been[ not in any particular order] my experiance of doing the district court shuffle,the fun and games of dealing with a very abusive and anti gun cheif superintendant and the Dept of justice equality and law reform.My experiance with firearms going on over 38 years globally,the numerous faults of AGS in presenting evidence in courts,their cases of comitting perjury in our courts,their inability for some reason to do a forensic test on recoverd firearms or why is it not possible in the age of global law enforcement to contact for advice or assistance EU or US agencies for help or advice?The actual qualifications of theAGS head of ballistics are questionable as well.In fact for the subject of firearms recognition they are actually unqualified!So therefore their expert status is questionable and in all the cases should have been accepted as not better than any layman.
    Refutation and defence of the presented guns in the horror book to the comittee and a call for AGS to be removed bar backround checking and in future the system to be administerd by civillian admin of competant personel in the matter of the law and knowledge of firerms.Also a suggestion that there are two EU countries that allow much more liberal gun possesion and one non EU country about the size of Ireland in pouplation that has an unarmed police force with the sameliberal gun laws.But they all test the man and liscense the man and not the guns and seem to do very well.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #755
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    PatterdalePup wrote: »
    ...since the handgun ban (and the subsequent surrendering of licensed handguns out of circulation) in Britain, crimes with firearms increased year on year for almost a decade (I'd like to see figures for the number of un-licensed firearms used - I'll see if I can find them).

    No legally-owned handguns have been used to commit handgun-related crime since the handgun ban on mainland UK. It is therefore axiomatic that EVERY such handgun crime has been carried out using an illegal handgun.

    The only legally-held handguns these days are kept on one of two kinds of permit -

    1. Allows you to have the gun, but ammunition is prohibited.

    2. Allows you 'ownership' of a handgun for intellectual, historical or research reasons, and ammunition, too, but they are BOTH secured in one of about seven location in England where you are permitted to fire it - in the interests of intellectual research, not for the fun of it. You go visit your gun, shoot it, discuss it whilst stroking your chin and smoking your pipe, and then, having done that, you go home again, leaving it behind until next time.

    3. Black powder handguns that are loose-loading are still permitted on mainland UK, but have never been used in any criminal activity, according to the Home Office figures. Why would a criminal choose a muzzle loader when he can have a MAC10 or UZI?

    4. Long-barrelled revolvers or pistols, again, do not figure in crime statistics.

    I cannot speak for Northern Ireland, where handguns of all kinds are still permitted.

    tac


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    #756
    bluezulu49
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭bluezulu49


    I sent my email off at 14.55 today and received an automated reply at 16.04 which said that the mailbox closed at 15.00. Did anyone else get this and will my submission be disregarded because their email could not cope with the volume of traffic?

    Bluezulu49


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    #757
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bluezulu49 wrote: »
    I sent my email off at 14.55 today and received an automated reply at 16.04 which said that the mailbox closed at 15.00. Did anyone else get this and will my submission be disregarded because their email could not cope with the volume of traffic?

    Bluezulu49

    I got the same response, but I'd spoken to the clerk on the phone at 1440 and he said he'd gotten the submission by then. Given that the email didn't go out till 1600, I'd say the automatic reply system didn't immediately reply and when it did, it was after the deadline so it sent out the "we're closed" version of the message.


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    #758
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks wrote: »
    I got the same response, but I'd spoken to the clerk on the phone at 1440 and he said he'd gotten the submission by then. Given that the email didn't go out till 1600, I'd say the automatic reply system didn't immediately reply and when it did, it was after the deadline so it sent out the "we're closed" version of the message.

    Let's hope it was a busy day for the administrators, today.

    Love to know how many submissions received.

    A word of thanks is due to everyone who has chipped-in to this thread in even the smallest way.


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    #759
    bpb101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭bpb101


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Let's hope it was a busy day for the administrators, today.

    Love to know how many submissions received.

    A word of thanks is due to everyone who has chipped-in to this thread in even the smallest way.
    now we play the waiting game


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    #760
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    And wait and see who gets called if anyone from boards to the lofty heights or in this case the cellars of Lenstir house
    Anyone want to put take bets on who might be called from us??

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #761
    bpb101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭bpb101


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    And wait and see who gets called if anyone from boards to the lofty heights or in this case the cellars of Lenstir house
    Anyone want to put take bets on who might be called from us??

    i would say if they do decide to, everybody will be asked to as in press release. Then you will apply to go onto the big stage. By submitting your qualifications.
    You will be then chosen.

    There again , they may not chose individual and just call up nargc, nasrpc and icpsa.There will be some limit though of how many can go im sure.
    I would love to know though how many went in. I would like to see them published , but i doubt that would happen.


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    #762
    OzCam
    Registered Users Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


    FYI, the department may or may not choose to get picky with the times of emails (they may not choose to do so if they were aware that there was a delay at their end).

    Their mail server will maintain a timestamp of exactly when a message arrived (it's in the headers). This is usually a minute or two after it was sent, but there may be a delay along the way, depending on what route it took and how many hops it passed through and spam checking etc. Also assuming that their clocks were set correctly, of course...

    They probably won't, but FYI if they tell you that your 80-page submission was too late you should ask for proof. Every step along the way is timestamped.

    14:55 was cutting it a bit fine though :)


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    #763
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    bpb101 wrote: »
    i would say if they do decide to, everybody will be asked to as in press release. Then you will apply to go onto the big stage. By submitting your qualifications.
    You will be then chosen.
    No, generally they just pick whomever they want (so long as they said they would go in if asked).
    I would love to know though how many went in. I would like to see them published , but i doubt that would happen.
    No, they're public documents. You can submit an FOI request for them if they're not published (and those are free now).

    edit: Actually, just on that point, your address would be redacted from the documents in the event of an FOI request, because there's an exemption in the Act that means you can't access another person's personal data.


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    #764
    Fallow01
    Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭Fallow01


    Got the same email after sending in a submission before the deadline, rang the clerk of the department and he confirmed the email system only updates every hour thus if you sent an email after 2pm you will have got an automated email saying it was closed.

    If you don't call it is unlikely your submission will be included.


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    #765
    Mr.Flibble
    Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭Mr.Flibble


    Sparks wrote: »
    ...and sent. Attached to this in case anyone is interested.

    There really are some doozies in the stats. Example - they said 8.6 firearms per 100 people.

    200,436 firearms in 4,609,600 people is 4.3 firearms per 100 people, not 8.6

    8.6 turns out to be from the Small Arms Survey 2007 (or wikipedia) and is based on the inclusion of an estimated 150,000 illegally held firearms in the number (and the smaller 4.1 million population in 2005).

    But even if you didn't know where it came from, you can do that division in your head well enough to see it's wrong (2/46 = 1/23 which is close to one twentieth which is 5%, not 8%).

    Anyway, I could have gone on for a week (actually, I did - it took so long to write this because I got it proofread and the defamation alarms went off and I had to go edit it down with a chainsaw, it's now half the length it started out as).

    Anyone still working on theirs, hurry up, you have 38 minutes left to get it in for the 3pm deadline.

    Anyone else want to share theirs?


    Good submission.

    Not sure George Mallory was the best choice though.

    Also, you underestimate the rate of fire of the double-barrelled shotgun. Proper traditional ones have two triggers and can fire both shots simultaneously. In fact I understand if you're really quick you can get the second shot off before the first.


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    #766
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Fact re the dbbl .A good synchronised team of shooter and loader can keep up a rate of fire that leaves a semi in the dust.Its another reason they never really caught on with the tweed and knickerbocker crowd.They could out shoot it on the moors and that new fangled contraption took too long to reload.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #767
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Fallow01 wrote: »
    Got the same email after sending in a submission before the deadline, rang the clerk of the department and he confirmed the email system only updates every hour thus if you sent an email after 2pm you will have got an automated email saying it was closed.

    If you don't call it is unlikely your submission will be included.

    Hang on. So my email went in at 2.12. Are you saying it won't be accepted?


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    #768
    knockon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭knockon


    Cass wrote: »
    I'm not discussing selective stats i'm talking about wrong stats. Firearms ownership stands at 8% in Ireland, apparently. You happy with people thinking this? Healy said it in the review video, and it's been posted numerous times.

    This is only one of a number of errors. So it's either alack of knowledge which shows laziness in actually finding out the right number or incompetence for not researching it nd relying on Wikipedia for your answers.

    As for PQs. How many questions were asked of the Minister by TDs only to be told "i'll get back to you after An Gardaí tell me". This goes on for months and in the meantime the numbers that cannot be gotten are reported in the media with An Gardaí named as the source. Albeit wrong numbers/stats. Then there is the simple case of just not giving an answer. That standardised response she spewed out for months was a disgrace. Please don't tell me she is a politician, but why not just say " i don't have them, and it's unlikely i will" or "i cannot answer that". Instead we get "For public safety reasons and keeping in mind all the mass shooting that have happened elsewhere we need to review legal firearm owners".

    The act of citing public safety DOES NOT make an argument in itself. Even a could of justices mentioned this fact when deciding one pistol appeal cases where Chief Supers cited public safety as a reason for refusing the guns. The justice, in his summation, said that crying public safety without providing proof of what threat the person possess or what public safety issues EXACTLY he is concerned with is not a valid excuse to refuse.

    I'm starting to wander again, but my point is this. Its either a conscious decision, by them, to refuse to issue the stats that have been sought, a lack of knowledge of what they are, or they just don't want to research them. So it's dishonest, incompetence or laziness.

    Absolutely correct. It leads to further questions....

    1) When will the committee meet again?
    2) What and how is CS Healy and Comm O Sullivan held to account for the misinformation on Dec 17th to the Committee?
    3) Will someone on the Committee ask CS Healy (going through Sparks submission for example) why has he supplied misinformation?
    4) I will be speaking to one member of the committee in the next week or so I'll be reminding him to read and raise these points. Who on the committee will be doing likewise I wonder.
    5) The Minister has the final decision and may or may not take recommendations from Committee, correct?
    6) Will the Minister call Norin O Sullivan to account, any precedence?


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    #769
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    knockon wrote: »
    Absolutely correct. It leads to further questions....

    1) When will the committee meet again?
    2) What and how is CS Healy and Comm O Sullivan held to account for the misinformation on Dec 17th to the Committee?
    3) Will someone on the Committee ask CS Healy (going through Sparks submission for example) why has he supplied misinformation?
    4) I will be speaking to one member of the committee in the next week or so I'll be reminding him to read and raise these points. Who on the committee will be doing likewise I wonder.
    5) The Minister has the final decision and may or may not take recommendations from Committee, correct?
    6) Will the Minister call Norin O Sullivan to account, any precedence?

    Many of us on here have read the WG Report and the more you read it, the more preposterous and spurious it becomes.

    Death by committee is the only option for a Minister for Justice whose party can ill-afford to upset even the smallest group between now and the general election, having more-or-less caved to the water protests.


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    #770
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    Just for the hell of it, I googled 'corbally brothers murder weapon'. I found an article from herald.ie dated 13th July 2010 by Cormac Byrne. Can't post the link for some reason.....
    It appears both guns used in this double murder originated in the 6 counties.
    Why lie Chief Super?


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    #771
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Deaf git wrote: »
    Just for the hell of it, I googled 'corbally brothers murder weapon'. I found an article from herald.ie dated 13th July 2010 by Cormac Byrne. Can't post the link for some reason.....
    It appears both guns used in this double murder originated in the 6 counties.
    Why lie Chief Super?

    When I Googled the same search I got 2 articles from local papers in this county and the next (presumably geolocated results) both dated Dec 17, parroting what Chief Super Fergus Healy was saying to the committee the same day.

    I said it in a more roundabout way in my submission Section "3.3 Garda Advocacy" and I am going to say it in plain language now;

    The only way this report could be made look reasonable was to selectively add and omit statistics and get these selected statistics out in the media to drum up a public outcry.

    A very worrying, determined and amateur attempt at opinion-forming on behalf of the promoters.


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    #772
    Connemara Farmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭Connemara Farmer


    Hello,

    Could someone with the correct information please provide the following in bullet point format (to avoid waffle & politics). I appreciate there's 52 pages here on it, but a lot of that (at least at the beginning) is waffle, infighting, and shooting politics which aren't IMO germane to the situation at hand.

    Precisely what are the Gardaí looking to ban?

    Their reasons for doing so?

    Credible, verifiable and reasonable arguments against.

    Thank you.


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    #773
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Deaf git wrote: »
    Just for the hell of it, I googled 'corbally brothers murder weapon'. I found an article from herald.ie dated 13th July 2010 by Cormac Byrne. Can't post the link for some reason.....
    It appears both guns used in this double murder originated in the 6 counties.
    Why lie Chief Super?

    To persue an agenda that has nothing to do with public saftey and all to do with many nails that stick up that must be hammered down to quote aJapaneae proverb.
    Speaking of Japanese things.I wonder is death by comittee an option ?Considering the virtual legal and evidential Kamikaze head on attacks that AGS has tried in our courts that have failed abysmally. I wouldn't be surprised if they are not going to try the same here??Arrogance and underestimating your opponents is always a good way of getting badly defeated.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #774
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Connemara Farmer wrote: »
    Hello,

    Could someone with the correct information please provide the following in bullet point format (to avoid waffle & politics). I appreciate there's 52 pages here on it, but a lot of that (at least at the beginning) is waffle, infighting, and shooting politics which aren't IMO germane to the situation at hand.

    Precisely what are the Gardaí looking to ban?

    Their reasons for doing so?

    Credible, verifiable and reasonable arguments against.

    Thank you.

    Here's a very brief summary.

    The Gardai are proposing unfair legislation that will ban all target shooting handguns larger than .22lr. They are proposing legislation that will revoke all existing licences for such handguns, confiscate them and pay no compensation whatsoever to their law abiding owners.

    This legislation would also do the same to every owner of a pump action shotgun or a semi auto shotgun.

    It also applies to owners of semi automatic rifles. These are mainly used in target shooting, vintage competitions etc.

    These proposals would also ban all .22lr handguns apart from ones that the Gardai approve. Approx 90% + of .22lr handguns that we use in competition today could be subject to this ban.

    The Gardai are also proposing to give themselves the power to blanket ban all guns in their district should they wish to do so. Under this proposal, the Gardai would simply declare their area high crime and thus be able to refuse to issue any firearms certs.

    This is open to widespread abuse. You could be the most law abiding citizen in the state, with a genuine need for the firearm, and be refused because of the area that you live in.

    There are lots of other proposals but it would take a month to fully discuss them.

    Why are the Gardai pushing these proposals?

    To be honest, I don't know. They cite crime reduction and public safety. I don't believe that.

    How will removing guns from law abiding target shooters lower crime. We aren't going around doing 'gangland hits' or armed robberies with our firearms so banning them won't lower crime statistics. Criminals don't have licences so this legislation won't affect them in the slightest. It will only punish law abiding target shooters.

    I hate saying this but for the past number of years, some of the Gardai haven't been applying the law correctly when it came to firearms licencing. This resulted in lots of appeals (over 600) by target shooters to the courts, and over 90% of these found in favour of the target shooter. Maybe these proposals have something to do with that.

    The third question you asked, reasonable reasons against.

    I am not a criminal, I am a law abiding citizen who takes part in a sport called target shooting. It's a worldwide legitimate sport that's even in the Olympics. I'm vetted by An Garda Síochána to ensure I am of good character, sound mind etc. I even give them access to my medical history etc etc. I only use my firearms on a Garda authorised range and keep my firearms locked away in a BS7558 standard safe when not in use. My house is fitted with cameras and a monitored alarm. I have done numerous safety courses and am a qualified Range Safety Officer.

    How am I a criminal or a danger to public safety?

    All these proposals will do is punish me because I am a law abiding licence holder. It won't affect the scumbag criminals, they don't have licences.


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    #775
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    To persue an agenda that has nothing to do with public saftey and all to do with many nails that stick up that must be hammered down to quote aJapaneae proverb.
    Speaking of Japanese things.I wonder is death by comittee an option ?Considering the virtual legal and evidential Kamikaze head on attacks that AGS has tried in our courts that have failed abysmally. I wouldn't be surprised if they are not going to try the same here??Arrogance and underestimating your opponents is always a good way of getting badly defeated.

    Grizzly, I hope you are right. But this is Ireland, the home of cute-hoorism, backroom deals and 'sure, we'll be grand'.
    Theres logic. Then there's Ireland.


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    #776
    g00167015
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭g00167015


    My question is, regarding the report itself, HOW can such a poorly composed, ill-informed, dishonest, clearly inaccurate and bordering-on-comedic rubbish with poor grammar and even poorer justifications/reasons for the statements therein...., even be acceptable in the first place by an institute of our very fine State? The same stadards wouldn't be acceptible for a post-primary student's woodwork project report so why is this nonsense so readily submitted by people who are supposed to be highly competent experts in the fields of policing and ballistics etc.

    Of course there is no answer........ it is sad that the same trollop is rightly rejected by the judiciary for the most part with firearms appeals and challenging the magnificent Garda ballistics experts but as for our legislators............. there advisors and cronies will shove the 'expert' opinions and recommendations of male-cattle-excriment right down their throats and hey-presto........

    My my how sad it is how law abiding sportsmen and women are being treated in this country


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    #777
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Arrogance and underestimating your opponents is always a good way of getting badly defeated.



    I can see two careers that are riding on this.



    Like the Kamikaze reference, very appropriate.


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    #778
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Deaf git wrote: »
    Grizzly, I hope you are right. But this is Ireland, the home of cute-hoorism, backroom deals and 'sure, we'll be grand'.
    Theres logic. Then there's Ireland.

    Back room deals are fine uf you honour then . Neither AGS bor DOJ has done either .Remember the IPSC "deal"?Outright lies!
    High court cases wher Shatter had to drag AGS ass out of the hot seat and the deal was the DC cases wouldnt be challanged.LIES again!!!!
    The CS has lied to this comittee but seeing that these comittee s dont have any oath or swearing in you can lie thru your teeth to them apparently ,the ags ballistic expert had lied in court across this land.Cheif supers have been found lying and tampering with documents in court.Ive been lied about in my AGS/DOJ file in fact if a senior member of AGS said to me its Sunday today I'd check a calender..
    In other words this is their Achelis heel.They are not creditable in either evidence, facts,figures or their handling of this entire matter and thats why I put in for a call for them to them to be removed from this .We must push this fact that they are lying like rugs on this subject and sow doubt in the comittee of their credulity.Point out that the AGS have been embroiled in crises because of lying all of 2014 causing resignation s if the CC and minister...Why would this be any different????

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #779
    SVI40
    Registered Users Posts: 600 ✭✭✭SVI40


    Unfortunately, we have all found out that "back room deals" are worthless. Even the Annex F, which was published by the Commissioner, was challenged every step of the way. However, in dealing with our elected representatives, we need to be very non emotional (not easy considering how we have been treated), and give them the facts, in a clear and non-emotive way. At the end of the day, those who make the laws, if given a choice of choosing between us or the Gardaí, no matter how wrong the are, I'd not like to bet on the outcome. The details of the proposed changes and how they are massaged to suit the agenda need to be discredited, but not in a confrontational way.

    What needs to happen, is that these proposals are halted, and open, frank, and honest discussions take place. There must be no "back room deals", no split among the various shooting bodies, we are in this together, irrespective of our different disciplines. At the end of the day, no shooter is going to be okay.

    Here is a link to a report from the Harvard Law School that I feel may help, if given to all our elected representatives. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

    I'm sure many of you may have seen it already, but it makes interesting reading.

    Finally, despite the deadline for submissions to the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality having passed, we cannot slow down on the campaign. We need to keep writing, emailing, and calling down to their clinics.


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    #780
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    SVI40 wrote: »

    What needs to happen, is that these proposals are halted, and open, frank, and honest discussions take place.

    There's nothing to discuss IMHO.

    These proposals are egregious.

    The proposers have tried to ignite a public outcry against us with misdirection, deflection and omission for almost all of 2014.

    And after we've had our bite back, nobody will be in much form for sitting down with the other side.

    Best thing for the AGS/DoJE WG report is a Zippo lighter.

    Ends.


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    #781
    g00167015
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭g00167015


    You'd want to be careful with that Zippo............. male cattle's excriment can be extremely flamable :-) ......or inflamatory as the case may be :-) , heck even deflamatory to certain parties :-)


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