Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

katydid · 03-01-2015 02:00PM

Tom Dunne wrote: »

That's not an acceptable comment on this or any forum. Any more of that from you and it's a forum ban.

I will obey your diktat, but I have to say that it is kind of strange to provide a forum for debate and then disallow part of that debate. There is a difference between name calling and stating something you believe to be the case about another person

But your thread, your rules...

katydid · 03-01-2015 02:04PM

confusedquark wrote: »

You missed this bit here:

"surveys in the UK and the U.S. suggest that between 25 and 70 per cent of women — and 40 and 80 per cent of men — have engaged in at least one extramarital sexual encounter."

But then when you later say:

... are you now saying that non-Muslim men and women DON'T manage to interact every day without feeling sexual urges, because they (presumably DON'T) respect each other as individuals?

Which is it?

I didn't miss any bit. I addressed it, as you yourself pointed out. I don't understand what you are trying to say by claiming I didn't address something and then showing how I addressed it. Bizarre.

Yes, SOME non-Muslim men and women decide not to control their sexual urges; that is their business. The fact still remains that the vast majority do; figures of up to seventy percent are simply ridiculous. The point is that non-Muslims are free to exercise their own free will; they can choose their morals, and don't have them dictated to them by a controlling religion.

Tom Dunne · 03-01-2015 03:27PM

katydid wrote: »

I will obey your diktat, but I have to say that it is kind of strange to provide a forum for debate and then disallow part of that debate. There is a difference between name calling and stating something you believe to be the case about another person

But your thread, your rules...

No, they are not my rules, they are the forum rules.

So stop back-seat modding, or it'll be a forum ban for you.

alwald · 03-01-2015 05:44PM

I cruised quickly through this thread, I haven't read everything so apologies if I am bringing elements that have been discussed previously.

The main topic here is woman in Islam so I shall start with this, IMO Women and Man aren't equal at all in Islam and I find it sad, there is one lady here who spoke about her experience and I respect her for her honesty. There is a need to differentiate between the texts in the religion/coran and the lifestyle of different Muslim families around the world, I am well aware that different people are living differently, it's all down to the parents and how they want to raise their children, some are very open minded and they raise their kids equally and some decide to force their daughter(s) to wear the veil, marry a certain man, not continue her education and so on...this is the reality and I am saying this from life experience and not because I have been reading about it in a book or in internet.
The parents will make a decision based on their level of education, based on the fact whether they are wealthy or poor, based on their view of the religion and so on.
Now to go back to the religion itself, I will mention few points that make me think that men and women aren't equal:
1 - A woman should wear the veil to hide her beauty and not to be desired by other men meanwhile a man can show his hair, muscles, parts of his body......so woman can desire him, how is that equal?
2 - A man can marry up to 4 woman, why a woman can't marry up to 4 man, if a man has a sexual desire to have a sexual intercourse with different partners then a woman can have the same desire, if a man is jealous for his woman or women because obviously he has feelings then the same applies to the woman, so why this difference?

Islam as a religion is beautiful just like the Christian religion and Judaism, but it has as many flaws as any other religion and IMO no religion is complete.

Since we are talking about the women's right in Islam, one obvious question will come to my mind, LGBT right, Lesbians aren't allowed in the Sharia law (which I dislike completely by the way), so why is that? and please don't compare Islam with the other religions that don't accept lesbians and gays, I am aware about it but since this topic is about Islam I would like to know the reasoning and logic behind all these restrictions from an Islamic point of view.

confusedquark · 03-01-2015 07:36PM

katydid wrote: »

I didn't miss any bit. I addressed it, as you yourself pointed out. I don't understand what you are trying to say by claiming I didn't address something and then showing how I addressed it. Bizarre.

Yes, SOME non-Muslim men and women decide not to control their sexual urges; that is their business. The fact still remains that the vast majority do; figures of up to seventy percent are simply ridiculous. The point is that non-Muslims are free to exercise their own free will; they can choose their morals, and don't have them dictated to them by a controlling religion.

Considering you've spent the entire thread ignoring the point that non-Muslims are just as susceptible to being "weak-willed" as Muslims, it's refreshing to see you admit that at least "some" of them decide not to control their urges.

Now, regarding the "SOME", even if we go beyond the lower range of what that article stated, and say even 20% of men/women have extra-marital affairs (or feel free to cite evidence otherwise if you think that figure is also ridiculous), that's not a few isolated cases - that's a substantial proportion of our society. It doesn't have to be a majority for it to be a common problem.

It's an indisputable FACT that a substantial proportion of all men and women ARE "weak-willed", and DO have extra-marital affairs. Islam recognises this, as well as the things that contribute to affairs happening, and puts in place many different measures to reduce the risk of them occurring, because they are considered to be one of the worst sins in Islam (and nor are they considered acceptable in western society).

It's also bizarre how you can go the entire thread pretending that something isn't an issue for non-Muslim men and women, and then all of sudden it is an issue for "some" and becomes "their business".

katydid · 03-01-2015 08:06PM

confusedquark wrote: »

Considering you've spent the entire thread ignoring the point that non-Muslims are just as susceptible to being "weak-willed" as Muslims, it's refreshing to see you admit that at least "some" of them decide not to control their urges.

Now, regarding the "SOME", even if we go beyond the lower range of what that article stated, and say even 20% of men/women have extra-marital affairs (or feel free to cite evidence otherwise if you think that figure is also ridiculous), that's not a few isolated cases - that's a substantial proportion of our society. It doesn't have to be a majority for it to be a common problem.

It's an indisputable FACT that a substantial proportion of all men and women ARE "weak-willed", and DO have extra-marital affairs. Islam recognises this, as well as the things that contribute to affairs happening, and puts in place many different measures to reduce the risk of them occurring, because they are considered to be one of the worst sins in Islam (and nor are they considered acceptable in western society).

It's also bizarre how you can go the entire thread pretending that something isn't an issue for non-Muslim men and women, and then all of sudden it is an issue for "some" and becomes "their business".

I never said non-Muslims aren't weak willed. I said that they have FREE will, to decide how to behave and how to exercise their will. Some of them choose one path, others choose another. That is their choice; and most of them choose to deal with the opposite gender without invoking or giving into any sexual urges. There is no need to impose strict controls on one gender in order to try to prevent it, because not only are non-Muslims equal, but they respect each other.

So what if, say, 20%, take a different stance? That's their choice. They are adults, and can do what they like. What Islam does is to not allow this choice, but to insist that one gender has to take responsibility for the weakness of the other. That is treating both genders like children, not responsible adults.

Defender OF Faith · 03-01-2015 08:53PM

katydid wrote: »

So what if, say, 20%, take a different stance? That's their choice. They are adults, and can do what they like. What Islam does is to not allow this choice,

Because this is a choice that will corrupt and spread disorder in society.

confusedquark · 03-01-2015 09:16PM

katydid wrote: »

I never said non-Muslims aren't weak willed. I said that they have FREE will, to decide how to behave and how to exercise their will. Some of them choose one path, others choose another. That is their choice; and most of them choose to deal with the opposite gender without invoking or giving into any sexual urges. There is no need to impose strict controls on one gender in order to try to prevent it, because not only are non-Muslims equal, but they respect each other.

So what if, say, 20%, take a different stance? That's their choice. They are adults, and can do what they like. What Islam does is to not allow this choice, but to insist that one gender has to take responsibility for the weakness of the other. That is treating both genders like children, not responsible adults.

Again, the rules aren't just restricted to one gender, I said "many different measures". Hijab is just one of them. Other measures in Islam that reduce the risks of affairs occurring include gender segregation, wherever it is practical (be it in a mosque, at a wedding, at work etc.) - this measure affects both genders equally. Another measure is when both men and women are encouraged to lower their gazes and to not gawk at one another - this measure affects both genders equally. Another measure is that both men and women are encouraged to only interact and converse with one another to what is necessary, and to not indulge in idle talk or flirting - this measure again affects both genders equally. The Quranic verses that stipulate that fornication and adultery are forbidden also apply equally to both men and women, and any Muslim who takes his/her religion seriously will bear this in mind when conducting themselves - this moral deterrent also affects men and women equally.

None of us have absolute free will to do what we please. Society will always impose strict controls on it's people to achieve what is considered best for the society as a whole - even if it means restricting the choices of individuals. 99+% of people won't be killed or seriously injured in a car crash, yet society has determined that it will force people to drive within a certain speed limit and force people to wear seat belts, and will prosecute people who don't follow these rules. Why can't people be left to their free will to make their own choices about their lives? Yet few of us will complain that society is treating us like children, not responsible adults. You could argue the same about any other issue that the government/society enforces on us.

In the same way that our society can justify enforcing rules on 100% of its people to protect a select few from the harms of a car crash, Islam promotes rules to prevent people from committing adultery. It comes down to what values a society has and what is considered acceptable and what isn't.

alwald · 03-01-2015 10:35PM

confusedquark wrote: »

None of us have absolute free will to do what we please. Society will always impose strict controls on it's people to achieve what is considered best for the society as a whole - even if it means restricting the choices of individuals. 99+% of people won't be killed or seriously injured in a car crash, yet society has determined that it will force people to drive within a certain speed limit and force people to wear seat belts, and will prosecute people who don't follow these rules. Why can't people be left to their free will to make their own choices about their lives? Yet few of us will complain that society is treating us like children, not responsible adults. You could argue the same about any other issue that the government/society enforces on us.

Let's not compare the incomparable here, strict control when it comes to driving is essential in order to avoid accidents that can harm others, how not wearing the hijab/niqab will cause any harm to others?

in addition I have the 3 following points to mention:
Now to go back to the religion itself, I will mention few points that make me think that men and women aren't equal:
1 - A woman should wear the veil to hide her beauty and not to be desired by other men meanwhile a man can show his hair, muscles, parts of his body......so woman can desire him, how is that equal?
2 - A man can marry up to 4 woman, why a woman can't marry up to 4 man, if a man has a sexual desire to have a sexual intercourse with different partners then a woman can have the same desire, if a man is jealous for his woman or women because obviously he has feelings then the same applies to the woman, so why this difference?
3- Inheritance in Islam, the son will always get more than his sister, his mother and any other person, how come that is right?

Defender OF Faith · 03-01-2015 10:57PM

alwald wrote: »

Let's not compare the incomparable here, strict control when it comes to driving is essential in order to avoid accidents that can harm others, how not wearing the hijab/niqab will cause any harm to others?

A Muslim women wears the Hijab because she's instructed by God to do so, anything else can be considered a benefit of the Hijab & to further add wearing the Hijab causes no harm to others.

alwald wrote: »

in addition I have the 3 following points to mention:
Now to go back to the religion itself, I will mention few points that make me think that men and women aren't equal:
1 - A woman should wear the veil to hide her beauty and not to be desired by other men meanwhile a man can show his hair, muscles, parts of his body......so woman can desire him, how is that equal?
2 - A man can marry up to 4 woman, why a woman can't marry up to 4 man, if a man has a sexual desire to have a sexual intercourse with different partners then a woman can have the same desire, if a man is jealous for his woman or women because obviously he has feelings then the same applies to the woman, so why this difference?
3- Inheritance in Islam, the son will always get more than his sister, his mother and any other person, how come that is right?

All these points were mentioned before hand and discussed since you came to the discussion recently, I have quoted the answers given to the points you mentioned.

Regarding point Number 3(Inheritance):

Defender Of Faith wrote: »

"Some think that women are inferior to men in Islam and a commonly cited example is that women receive less share in inheritance than a male."

This is only true if there is no recorded will for the deceased. Shares of inheritance should be stated in a will, and can be done in any way a person chooses [2:180, 5:106-108] however in cases where there is no will or a will leaves leftover wealth/property/etc The Quran has a default system that can be used for such cases [4:8, 4:11-12, 4:176]. In this default system, a male receives more than a female because they have a wider duty of care for maintenance of the family/household [2:228, 2:233, 4:34, 65:6]. Also they have other financial obligations, e.g. payment of a dowry before marriage [4:4, 4:24 and compensation after divorce if applicable [2:241].
Here is an example to show the justice behind such ruling in an Islamic society were a male have the financial obligation.

This is like having to men and giving each 2000$ one of them you cost nothing while the other you cost purchasing items worth 1500$, in reality which is given more?

Let say man died an left 300000 in inheritance leaving behind one son and daughter.

If the man have left no will by default a man will receive 200000 and the women 100000, in the beginning this is evidently in the favour of a man and injustice to the women in the eyes of those with narrow vision. But those with a healthy sight will look far ahead just as they see what's close, because he understand that the man will get married and pay 50000 in dowry while the women will get married and receive 50000 in dowry, hence the man now has 50k less and a women has 50k more. The man has the financial obligation to support his family so he spends some of what he received on his family and constantly his money is getting less and less, while his sister is taken care of by her husband and her money remains the same. Not so long from now will the women have more money then the man.

If no default backup system such as this existed, this opens the possibility to much argument, hostility, legal action, delays and the outcome would likely favour those with more power/wealth/influence, thus leaving the disadvantaged even more disadvantaged.

Regarding point number 2 {polygamy}:

confusedquark wrote: »

Men are allowed to have four wives, but women only one husband. There are many practical reasons for this. Children for starters. If and when the woman becomes pregnant, issues of paternity crop up, and which one exactly is the father. If a woman has four husbands, even if you could do DNA paternity testing, the very fact that she's one woman, who can only go through one pregnancy at a time, followed by nursing a newborn and recovering before she could have another, one of the husbands could potentially have to wait 6-8 years (and quite possibly longer depending on how things work out - will all the men just be happy to wait their turn for a child? will the woman want a break at some point?) before having a child of his own. Then if and when the woman does get pregnant, is it ok for her to be having intercourse with one man whilst carrying the baby of another? (I'm not fan of polygamy, I'll add - and whilst people will say it's wrong for a man to be having intercourse with a second wife while number one is expecting, the previous scenario is probably still wronger). Furthermore, I think it's pretty tough on a woman to undergo pregnancy and subsequent nursing whilst trying to satify four husbands at the same time. And finally, as tough as it must be for women to live as co-wives, men by their very nature are competitive, testosterone-driven and prone to head-locking over females, so I'd imagine there would be more likelihood of trouble - esp. as they'll be competing to produce off-spring.

Regarding point number 1:

Defender Of Faith wrote: »

They are not expected to cover up so men wont be tempted sexually how many time do I have to tell you this? they wear the Hijab to obey and please their lord. Such purpose is one of the benefits that comes with the veil.

The Muslim woman does not feel the pressures to be beautiful or attractive, which is so apparent in the Western and Eastern cultures. She does not have to live up to expectations of what is desirable and what is not. Superficial beauty is not the Muslim woman's concern, her main goal is inner spiritual beauty. She does not have to use her body and charms to get recognition or acceptance in society.

Another benefit of adorning the veil is that it is a protection for women. Muslims believe that when women display their beauty to everybody, they degrade themselves by becoming objects of sexual desire and become vulnerable to men, who look at them as " gratification for the sexual urge". The Hijab makes them out as women belonging to the class of modest chaste women, so that transgressors and sensual men may recognize them as such and dare not tease them out of mischief". Hijab solves the problem of sexual harassment and unwanted sexual advances, which is so demeaning for women, when men get mixed signals and believe that women want their advances by the way they reveal their bodies.

The western ideology of, 'if you have it, you should flash it!' is quite opposite to the Islamic principle, where the purpose is not to bring attention to ones self, but to be modest. Women in so many societies are just treated as sex symbols and nothing more than just a body who "display themselves to get attention". A good example is in advertising, where a woman's body is used to sell products. Women are constantly degraded, and subjected to reveal more and more of themselves.

The Covering sanctifies her and forces society to hold her in high esteem. Far from humiliating the woman, Hijab actually grants the woman an aura of respect, and bestows upon her a separate and unique identity. According to the Qu'ran, the same high standards of moral conduct are for men as it is for women. Modesty is essential in a man's life, as well, whether it be in action, morals or speech. Islam also commands proper behavior and dress of men, in that they are not allowed to make a wanton show of their bodies to attract attention onto themselves, and they too must dress modestly. They have a special commandment to lower their eyes, and not to brazenly stare at women.

katydid · 03-01-2015 11:21PM

alwald wrote: »

Let's not compare the incomparable here, strict control when it comes to driving is essential in order to avoid accidents that can harm others, how not wearing the hijab/niqab will cause any harm to others?

in addition I have the 3 following points to mention:
Now to go back to the religion itself, I will mention few points that make me think that men and women aren't equal:
1 - A woman should wear the veil to hide her beauty and not to be desired by other men meanwhile a man can show his hair, muscles, parts of his body......so woman can desire him, how is that equal?
2 - A man can marry up to 4 woman, why a woman can't marry up to 4 man, if a man has a sexual desire to have a sexual intercourse with different partners then a woman can have the same desire, if a man is jealous for his woman or women because obviously he has feelings then the same applies to the woman, so why this difference?
3- Inheritance in Islam, the son will always get more than his sister, his mother and any other person, how come that is right?

I have already asked the first two questions, and have got unbelievably misogynistic answers. The "answers" to the second question involved disgusting descriptions of men inserting their members into women and something about women not having members inserted.
If it's not members it's menstruation; some Muslims seem obsessed with sex and bodily functions...it explains a lot about this whole men/women thing.

Defender OF Faith · 03-01-2015 11:29PM

katydid wrote: »

I have already asked the first two questions, and have got unbelievably misogynistic answers. The "answers" to the second question involved disgusting descriptions of men inserting their members into women and something about women not having members inserted.

The answer is nothing as you described, I did you even read it?
Point out how is the answer "Unbelievably misogynistic" and promote hatred and violence toward women.

katydid wrote: »

If it's not members it's menstruation; some Muslims seem obsessed with sex and bodily functions...it explains a lot about this whole men/women thing.

Menstruation was discussed in only 1 context and that's regarding the prayer and nothing else.

alwald · 03-01-2015 11:31PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

A Muslim women wears the Hijab because she's instructed by God to do so, anything else can be considered a benefit of the Hijab & to further add wearing the Hijab causes no harm to others.

Is it written clearly in the Qoran? or is it in the hadith only?
you say that a woman is instructed to do so, well I knew that already, what I don't know is why a man doesn't have to cover up? this is the inequality for me, I can't understand that if a Muslim family will go the beach or to the swimming pool the man will wear a swim short just like his peers so his entire body is visible and the woman cannot remove a single piece of her clothing, how can that be equal?

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Regarding point Number 3(Inheritance)

Your point was valid in the medieval age, where men were responsible for all expenses and so on, we live in a different society, woman now can indeed look after more expenses than a man, the logic that you explained isn't relevant anymore.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Regarding point number 2 {polygamy}

Well here you picked an example that suits you the best, a woman that wants to have a baby or babies and different father should wait until her pregnancy cycle is over, what about a woman who doesn't want to have any baby and only wants to marry four man for own pleasure just like a man is allowed to marry four woman for his own pleasure?

I would like to add that sexual harassment is in constant increase in the Muslim world, it is all due to the level of restrictions that a Muslim has to accept/obey on a daily basis, if you are looking for statistics it's unlikely that you will find any Muslim country on top of the list, the reason is simple, in order for a woman to prove that she was sexually harassed she needs to satisfy a number of rules, amongst these rules she needs to have 3 witnesses.....failure to satisfy these rules will result in her being forced to marry her rapist, how is this fair?

Religions were created in the past in order to bring order to the day to day life, in order to set a number of punishments and enforce them when necessary - Exactly like law nowadays, a lot of the laws that we are using now have been inspired by religion hence why I respect religions, however the difference between laws and religion is massive, laws can be changed, modified, challenged and even removed in order to comply with a new environment in which we live, religion cannot be challenged and it should be followed blindly, just like your sentence:

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

A Muslim women wears the Hijab because she's instructed by God to do so

there is no logic at all.

katydid · 03-01-2015 11:32PM

confusedquark wrote: »

Again, the rules aren't just restricted to one gender, I said "many different measures". Hijab is just one of them. Other measures in Islam that reduce the risks of affairs occurring include gender segregation, wherever it is practical (be it in a mosque, at a wedding, at work etc.) - this measure affects both genders equally. Another measure is when both men and women are encouraged to lower their gazes and to not gawk at one another - this measure affects both genders equally. Another measure is that both men and women are encouraged to only interact and converse with one another to what is necessary, and to not indulge in idle talk or flirting - this measure again affects both genders equally. The Quranic verses that stipulate that fornication and adultery are forbidden also apply equally to both men and women, and any Muslim who takes his/her religion seriously will bear this in mind when conducting themselves - this moral deterrent also affects men and women equally.

None of us have absolute free will to do what we please. Society will always impose strict controls on it's people to achieve what is considered best for the society as a whole - even if it means restricting the choices of individuals. 99+% of people won't be killed or seriously injured in a car crash, yet society has determined that it will force people to drive within a certain speed limit and force people to wear seat belts, and will prosecute people who don't follow these rules. Why can't people be left to their free will to make their own choices about their lives? Yet few of us will complain that society is treating us like children, not responsible adults. You could argue the same about any other issue that the government/society enforces on us.

In the same way that our society can justify enforcing rules on 100% of its people to protect a select few from the harms of a car crash, Islam promotes rules to prevent people from committing adultery. It comes down to what values a society has and what is considered acceptable and what isn't.

Men don't have to cover themselves from head to do. the onus is on women to cover themselves so that men can control themselves. The restrictions are on women, not on men. Sure, gender segregation affects both genders, but even then men are favoured. In a mosque, they generally occupy the main body of the mosque while the women are relegated to a gallery or side rooms.

Nobody has absolute freedom to do what they please. The law lays down certain rules where a person's behaviour could harm others. You certainly can legislate for speed control; you can't legislate for sexual behaviour between consenting adults.

A pity that Islam can't trust adults to behave respectfully and maturely.

katydid · 03-01-2015 11:33PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Because this is a choice that will corrupt and spread disorder in society.

That's up to people to decide. A religion can't and shouldn't control society, only offer people advice as to how to behave.

katydid · 03-01-2015 11:48PM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The answer is nothing as you described, I did you even read it?
Point out how is the answer "Unbelievably misogynistic" and promote hatred and violence toward women.

Menstruation was discussed in only 1 context and that's regarding the prayer and nothing else.

Your justification for women not having four husbands was about the hygiene elements of four men inserting their members into one woman, while the issue of a man inserting his member into four women didn't bother you in the slightest. You also made incredibly sexist points about men, women and childbirth - firstly assuming that a woman would want to have a child at all, or would not want to choose for herself which of her husbands to have it with. And expressing pity for the "poor man" who would have to wait until a child was born before he could have sex, which is both untrue and ridiculous.

The context of menstruation is irrelevant - the fact that it is even mentioned or taken into account in any way is sexist, as it assumes that it is some kind of illness that makes women both ill and emotionally unstable.

As I said, unbelievably misogynistic - and for your information, misogyny is not necessarily about promoting violence and hatred, although those things often arise from mistrusting and disrespecting women. If you see them as less important than men, it stands to reason you will treat the with less respect.

Defender OF Faith · 03-01-2015 11:55PM

alwald wrote: »

Is it written clearly in the Qoran? or is it in the hadith only?
you say that a woman is instructed to do so, well I knew that already, what I don't know is why a man doesn't have to cover up? this is the inequality for me, I can't understand that if a Muslim family will go the beach or to the swimming pool the man will wear a swim short just like his peers so his entire body is visible and the woman cannot remove a single piece of her clothing, how can that be equal?

The western women is obliged by law to covers her chest while the man doesn't, don't you consider this as inequality?

alwald wrote: »

Your point was valid in the medieval age, where men were responsible for all expenses and so on, we live in a different society, woman now can indeed look after more expenses than a man, the logic that you explained isn't relevant anymore.

My point is not valid for a medieval age it's valid for an Islamic society and your question was regarding the inheritance in an Islamic society. You have not shown how this is unfair under Islamic law.

alwald wrote: »

Well here you picked an example that suits you the best, a woman that wants to have a baby or babies and different father should wait until her pregnancy cycle is over, what about a woman who doesn't want to have any baby and only wants to marry four man for own pleasure just like a man is allowed to marry four woman for his own pleasure?

#1)And for some reason all those 4 men happen to not want children? Under Islam marriage is an institution for starting a family and not simply releasing your steam. Your whole argument is based on the fact that a Muslim man marries 4 women for sex which you have supported by any sort of data or opinion poll among the Muslims, as the basis for polygamy under the context of the verse to begin with was for the men to marry the widowed mothers of Orphans to take care of the children and not for sex.

#2)The Quran was revealed to a society where polygamy was commonplace and men could have many wives (e.g. more than four for example). By setting an upper limit, citing a moral restriction on polygamy and limiting the situations in which it is allowed would result in reducing polygamy significantly. To remind you that among the prophets many had more then 1 wife such as Ibrahim having 2 wives and Solomon who had 700 wives.

alwald wrote: »

I would like to add that sexual harassment is in constant increase in the Muslim world,

Until you can support this with evidence and proof your point cannot be taken seriously.

Defender OF Faith · 04-01-2015 12:04AM

katydid wrote: »

Your justification for women not having four husbands was about the hygiene elements of four men inserting their members into one woman, while the issue of a man inserting his member into four women didn't bother you in the slightest. You also made incredibly sexist points about men, women and childbirth - firstly assuming that a woman would want to have a child at all, or would not want to choose for herself which of her husbands to have it with. And expressing pity for the "poor man" who would have to wait until a child was born before he could have sex, which is both untrue and ridiculous.

Did you even read what I presented to alwad? read again because you didn't:

confusedquark wrote: »

Men are allowed to have four wives, but women only one husband. There are many practical reasons for this. Children for starters. If and when the woman becomes pregnant, issues of paternity crop up, and which one exactly is the father. If a woman has four husbands, even if you could do DNA paternity testing, the very fact that she's one woman, who can only go through one pregnancy at a time, followed by nursing a newborn and recovering before she could have another, one of the husbands could potentially have to wait 6-8 years (and quite possibly longer depending on how things work out - will all the men just be happy to wait their turn for a child? will the woman want a break at some point?) before having a child of his own. Then if and when the woman does get pregnant, is it ok for her to be having intercourse with one man whilst carrying the baby of another? (I'm not fan of polygamy, I'll add - and whilst people will say it's wrong for a man to be having intercourse with a second wife while number one is expecting, the previous scenario is probably still wronger). Furthermore, I think it's pretty tough on a woman to undergo pregnancy and subsequent nursing whilst trying to satify four husbands at the same time. And finally, as tough as it must be for women to live as co-wives, men by their very nature are competitive, testosterone-driven and prone to head-locking over females, so I'd imagine there would be more likelihood of trouble - esp. as they'll be competing to produce off-spring.

What you mentioned is something I said in the previous thread which had long been locked, I have not presented such argument again in this thread as what's brought forth by Quark was much better and more appropriate then what I said, If you found what I said previously offensive I apologise as it was based on my own sentiment.

katydid wrote: »

The context of menstruation is irrelevant - the fact that it is even mentioned or taken into account in any way is sexist, as it assumes that it is some kind of illness that makes women both ill and emotionally unstable.

That assumption is false.

katydid wrote: »

As I said, unbelievably misogynistic

For someone like yourself that disregard the context, and make his own assumption to support his argument.

katydid · 04-01-2015 12:10AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The western women is obliged by law to covers her chest while the man doesn't, don't you consider this as inequality?

My point is not valid for a medieval age it's valid for an Islamic society and your question was regarding the inheritance in an Islamic society. You have not shown how this is unfair under Islamic law.

#1)And for some reason all those 4 men happen to not want children? Under Islam marriage is an institution for starting a family and not simply realising your steam. Your whole argument is based on the fact that a Muslim man marries 4 women for sex which you have supported by any sort of data or opinion poll among the Muslims, as the basis for polygamy under the context of the verse to begin with was for the men to marry the widowed mothers of Orphans to take care of the children and not for sex.

#2)The Quran was revealed to a society where polygamy was commonplace and men could have many wives (e.g. more than four for example). By setting an upper limit, citing a moral restriction on polygamy and limiting the situations in which it is allowed would result in reducing polygamy significantly. To remind you that among the prophets many had more then 1 wife such as Ibrahim having 2 wives and Solomon who had 700 wives.

Until you can support this with evidence and proof your point cannot be taken seriously.

Of course it's an inequality that the law dictates to a woman that she must cover her breasts. Just as it's an inequality as the Islamic practice. At last you're beginning to see the point.

Your points are not valid for any society in 2015. A religion is a set of guidelines and beliefs for anyone; Muslims live in many parts of the world. Yes, some of them live in medieval style societies, where the advances in understanding about gender equality and other aspects of human behaviour haven't caught up with modern times, but that is a problem with society, not with religion. Religion should be beyond and above society.

You don't need to give a lesson in polygamy. Everyone knows the origin. The point is that TODAY, 3rd January 2015, a Muslim man can have up to four wives and a Muslim woman can not have more than one husband. The qualifications or reasons for men having this privilege not allowed to women under any circumstances are irrelevant; the fact is that men are allowed to do something women are not. Hence inequality.

katydid · 04-01-2015 12:21AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Did you even read what I presented to alwad? read again because you didn't:

What you mentioned is something I said in the previous thread which had long been locked, I have not presented such argument again in this thread as what's brought forth by Quark was much better and more appropriate then what I said, If you found what I said previously offensive I apologise as it was based on my own sentiment.

That assumption is false.

For someone like yourself that disregard the context, and make his own assumption to support his argument.

Er, yes, I did read what you wrote to him/her/. Again, you tried to justify an inequality with excuses, ignoring the fact that no matter what excuses you try to make, it is an inequality between men and women. Which is why I wrote what I wrote...

It is not an assumption regarding menstruation. YOU argued/explained that women are excused prayers because when they are menstruating their emotions and their physical well being is affected.

looksee · 04-01-2015 12:24AM

katydid wrote: »

That's up to people to decide. A religion can't and shouldn't control society, only offer people advice as to how to behave.

If a society agrees to being controlled by religion, then religion can and is controlling that society. If that is what the whole of the society wants then outsiders have no reason to query it. It may be that to outsiders the control seems unjust, but if there is no protest from within the society, do the outsiders have any right to impose their views?

Specifically on the subject of women's rights the it can be argued that the idea that women should be covered does not apply to Muslim women in the west, since men have a different attitude to women and having a woman covered head to foot in fact draws attention to her, rather than making her invisible.

I continue to feel that the quotations from the Quran and the arguments have in no way led me to feel more confident about women's rights in Islam, and in fact things have come up in those quotations that I was not aware of. Continuing to go round in circles asking questions that are answered by quotations that largely miss the point is achieving nothing, so I will opt out. I do feel though that with the increasing visibility of Islam in the west, we need to educate ourselves about it.

alwald · 04-01-2015 12:26AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The western women is obliged by law to covers her chest while the man doesn't, don't you consider this as inequality?

are you sure that she's obliged by law? most swimming pools and beaches in mainland Europe are topless, none are in the Muslim world. On top of that I shall remind you that a woman's breast cannot be compared to a woman's hair, arm, ears...you are talking about two different things now.
You still didn't reply to my point I shall say, you are making comparisons between a religion and law, I am not looking for a difference, I am asking for a logical explanation in the Muslim religion, so please don't avoid a question that is a priority in order to go further in the debate.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

My point is not valid for a medieval age it's valid for an Islamic society and your question was regarding the inheritance in an Islamic society. You have not shown how this is unfair under Islamic law.

Allow me to rephrase, in the Muslim world there are powerful woman, that make a lot of money and that contribute to their families more than the man, when it comes to the inheritance, as per the Islamic law, the woman will get less than the man regardless if she contributed more than him to the day to day expenses, how fair is this?

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

#1)And for some reason all those 4 men happen to not want children? Under Islam marriage is an institution for starting a family and not simply realising your steam. Your whole argument is based on the fact that a Muslim man marries 4 women for sex which you have supported by any sort of data or opinion poll among the Muslims, as the basis for polygamy under the context of the verse to begin with was for the men to marry the widowed mothers of Orphans to take care of the children and not for sex.

it's possible that all the men aren't looking to have kids, why it wouldn't be possible? I stated that a man and the woman are looking for sex amongst other things because it's in our nature as human beings, I don't need a data to support that, in the other hand did you support with data the fact that all Muslims who engage for polygamy do so for the family spirit and not to engage in a sexual intercourse and satisfy their sexual needs?

Under Christianity and Judaism Marriage is an institution for starting a family too, they don't allow polygamy so why this difference - See I didn't want to compare different religions but it seems to me that you want to do so, based on that I will start comparisons too.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

#2)The Quran was revealed to a society where polygamy was commonplace and men could have many wives (e.g. more than four for example). By setting an upper limit, citing a moral restriction on polygamy and limiting the situations in which it is allowed would result in reducing polygamy significantly. To remind you that among the prophets many had more then 1 wife such as Ibrahim having 2 wives and Solomon who had 700 wives.

I will compare too, Christianity and Judaism are older than Islam and as such there was polygamy at the time too, why these two religions didn't encourage polygamy? as a result polygamy doesn't exist by law in countries where Christianity and Judaism are the main religion meanwhile it exists in Muslim countries which creates a big difference between Men and Women.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Until you can support this with evidence and proof your point cannot be taken seriously.

I stated the reasons why I can't support this with data, this is a valid reason, I am saying this from life experience as I have lived in different Muslim countries, I wish that you engage in an open debate in order to discuss all the relevant issues and matters.

edit: here is a quick link that I found: http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/87-of-saudi-men-blame-women-for-sexual-assault-survey/

Moving to the next point since you seem to want to avoid the sexual harassment point that I made, you are well aware the the prophet Muhamed married a 7 years old girl and consummated the marriage at the age of 9 based on some sources and at the age of 12 based on other sources, what's your view about that? the Prophet of a religion who is meant to be the most perfect of all men marrying a 7 years old woman - If I am mentioning this point its because we are clearly talking about Women in Islam and Aicha is one of them.

Defender OF Faith · 04-01-2015 12:28AM

katydid wrote: »

It is not an assumption regarding menstruation. YOU argued/explained that women are excused prayers because when they are menstruating their emotions and their physical well being is affected.

Since the Mod rules regarding this thread had banned talks about menstruation I will refer back to a post already made by Quark that gave a fuller explanation regarding the issue:

confusedquark wrote: »

Period pain is extremely common. Some studies suggest up to 90% of menstruating women experience pain and discomfort during their period.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Periods-painful/Pages/Introduction.aspx

confusedquark wrote: »

I did read the article - if you had a closer look at it, the other figures related to moderately painful in around 20% of women (and mildly painful/discomfort would obviously be a much greater number), and severe in 2% of cases.
In another study, up to 14% of women reported frequently being unable to go to work because of period pain (again, puts it at the severe spectrum) - all of this of this very much contrasts to your statement of "most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period".

That said, from my understanding, I don't think pain and discomfort are the main reason why women are excused from prayers during their periods.

In the same way that if a man gets even a drop of urine on his clothes, he is not considered to be in a pure state, and is not permitted to pray until he has washed and changed (even if he could put a pad on), the same goes for menstruating females. The constant spotting (and sometimes more than spotting) means that they are not in the pure state for those days, and that's the reason they are not permitted to pray the obligatory prayers (but they are not prevented from making supplications).

katydid · 04-01-2015 12:32AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Since the Mod rules regarding this thread had banned talks about menstruation I will refer back to a post already made by Quark that gave a fuller explanation regarding the issue:

No need. The POINT you're ignoring is that Islam singles out ALL women out because of a natural body function and uses it to make them out to be vulnerable and unable to function like men in certain circumstances.

confusedquark · 04-01-2015 12:35AM

katydid wrote: »

Men don't have to cover themselves from head to do. the onus is on women to cover themselves so that men can control themselves. The restrictions are on women, not on men. Sure, gender segregation affects both genders, but even then men are favoured. In a mosque, they generally occupy the main body of the mosque while the women are relegated to a gallery or side rooms.

I've already repeatedly given you the two reasons why women need to cover up more, and apart from pretend that they're a non-issue, you haven't given any evidence to suggest that 1) Women aren't sexually assaulted more than men in this world or 2) The men aren't more attracted to women because of testosterone. Here's a fun article for you to read: http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare
Main points:
1) Men think more about sex
2) Men seek sex more avidly

Islam does not pretend that those differences do not exist, and as well as laying down strict rules for MEN to follow in their behaviour towards women, it also accounts for the men who can't be trusted to follow those rules (and who exist in numbers in every society) and gives women protection from them, whilst at the same time reducing the risks of extramarital relationships occurring.

katydid wrote: »

A pity that Islam can't trust adults to behave respectfully and maturely.

The proof is in the pudding - adults can't be trusted to behave respectfully and maturely because 20% (if not more) will have extra-marital affairs. You might consider that acceptable in society. Islam doesn't.

You certainly can legislate for sexual behaviour between consenting adults (we already have incest laws in this country, for one). Do you not think affairs cause immense psychological harm to the spouses and children of those involved? (if that's your criteria of which rules the law should lay down)

Defender OF Faith · 04-01-2015 12:41AM

katydid wrote: »

No need. The POINT you're ignoring is that Islam singles out ALL women out because of a natural body function and uses it to make them out to be vulnerable and unable to function like men in certain circumstances.

You brought forth this point and I answered stop taking us around in circles by asking the question rather then discussing the answer.

katydid wrote: »

Any woman OR MAN who has any kind of illness should be excused from certain things in life, but singling out women as a group and assuming that because they have periods they are somehow incapacitated every month is sexist and ignorant.

Defender Of Faith wrote: »

Because they deserve a special attention and mention as a period is a natural part of a women life and is not an illness, and due to the discomforts a women may go through during her period, she is excused from prayer, as having to perform ablution and pray 5 times a day in such a state my cause her more distress, especially when she needs to wake up at 2-7 AM for the morning prayer.

katydid wrote: »

Special attention? Why? If it's just a normal part of life, why treat it as special?

Defender Of Faith wrote: »

And this is exactly why it deserve special attention, if this was not pointed out since it's a natural part of life, then it would have been an obligation for the women to pray during her menstruation regardless of whether she suffers from symptoms or no.

katydid · 04-01-2015 12:52AM

confusedquark wrote: »

I've already repeatedly given you the two reasons why women need to cover up more, and apart from pretend that they're a non-issue, you haven't given any evidence to suggest that 1) Women aren't sexually assaulted more than men in this world or 2) The men aren't more attracted to women because of testosterone. Here's a fun article for you to read: http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare
Main points:
1) Men think more about sex
2) Men seek sex more avidly

Islam does not pretend that those differences do not exist, and as well as laying down strict rules for MEN to follow in their behaviour towards women, it also accounts for the men who can't be trusted to follow those rules (and who exist in numbers in every society) and gives women protection from them, whilst at the same time reducing the risks of extramarital relationships occurring.

The proof is in the pudding - adults can't be trusted to behave respectfully and maturely because 20% (if not more) will have extra-marital affairs. You might consider that acceptable in society. Islam doesn't.

You certainly can legislate for sexual behaviour between consenting adults (we already have incest laws in this country, for one). Do you not think affairs cause immense psychological harm to the spouses and children of those involved? (if that's your criteria of which rules the law should lay down)

You've given me reasons I don't accept. They are not reasons that I, as a mature adult, accept as being necessary for me to interact with the opposite gender. They are not reasons the vast majority of people accept.

You really think that women aren't sexually attracted to men? Ah, if you only knew... We may not be full of testosterone, but we have other ways of expressing our attraction to men. You're very naive if you think otherwise.
Women have protection against predatory men; it's called THE LAW. If a woman, or a man for that matter, undergoes unwanted sexual approaches, she or he has the protection of the law. Most - at least 80% can exercise self restraint, and of the other percentile, for the vast majority they make a mutual decision to give in to the sexual or romantic attraction they feel. Otherwise it's sexual assualt or rape.

The laws on incest are for physical and mental health reasons, no other. The moral taboos on incest come from similar reasons. Other than that, society allows consenting adults to make their own decisions. Yes, sometimes relationships engaged in outside marriage can result in family problems, but very often they solve them, if a marriage has reached a point where it is beyond redemption. And very often, where males and females give into their feelings and desires, they are free and single, and their actions affect no one but each other. It is not the job of religion, or of society, to dictate who they can or can't have a relationship with.

katydid · 04-01-2015 12:54AM

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

You brought forth this point and I answered stop taking us around in circles by asking the question rather then discussing the answer.

What is your point in rehashing your former posts in another thread? Apart from showing that you never answered my question about why anyone, male or female, IF they have a medical issue, can't be given special consideration..

Defender OF Faith · 04-01-2015 01:14AM

alwald wrote: »

You still didn't reply to my point I shall say, you are making comparisons between a religion and law, I am not looking for a difference, I am asking for a logical explanation in the Muslim religion, so please don't avoid a question that is a priority in order to go further in the debate.

1)I am not avoiding the question the same you see nothing wrong with women covering their breasts while men are not, we view the Hijab.

The Issue of the Islamic Hijab was discussed nicely by a Muslim sister below:

Sunrays1 wrote: »

I am a Muslim woman living in Ireland and have read through some of the beginning of this thread (and not completed reading the whole thread right now as it is quite lengthy!) and have some comments to make, in particular to the comments relating to Muslim women's thoughts.

To limit temptations is onlynone reason for covering the body for both men and women along with reasons such as generally not drawing attention to yourself, showing off, being moderate in appearance whereby as an individual, male or female, you are neither extravagant nor scruffy looking. Similar to school uniform where everyone is equal and students are not made to feel pressured into designer labels etc. but obviously outside school environment you can dress as you please. Similarly, in Islam, you can dress as you please however, clothes shouldn't be transparent, or tight fitting which show the shape of your body, 'flashy'/attention seeking, always extravagant/expensive or always 'scruffy'/torn. Men are to cover at all times from navel to knees. Women are to cover their body, except face, hands and feet.

I understand this is where the argument lies but it has to be realised that if a Muslim man was to be topless in front of people, clearly flexing muscles or the alike, then this would not be allowed either. A women being topless will always be more of a statement and attraction than a man being topless, although when it is a statement by a man, it would not be allowed either as mentioned.

The hair of a woman adds to her beauty and her neck and chest follow on from this. The covering of which has been instructed by Allah therefore is required by Muslim women. If anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim, does not believe Allah or God to have said this, then they do not have to, there is no compulsion in Islam. If the passages which refer to this instruction are examined carefully, it is seen that the head covering is not specifically mentioned. The word 'Khimar' is used when Allah says, "...they should draw their khimar over their bosoms and not display their zeena (beauty)..." (24:60). A khimar is translated as a loose scarf which was worn in the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) time by women, which covered their head, neck and possibly shoulders only. This is therefore where the instruction appears and the khimar head covering was told to be extended to the bosom too. The passage does go on to mention the covering of the rest of the body but I focussed on head covering there as many people don't understand why women cover their heads and men don't.

I talk of topless men and women as that is the extreme end of not covering obviously and therefore, a line has been drawn, a boundary has to be made, there needs to be a rule set as it is clearer to follow. Islam being more of a preventative religion in my opinion, rather than curative, (cures however aplenty there are in Islam). Jewels for example are kept safe and hidden away from someone wanting to steal them, similarly, women are covered to be protected. Not just from men, from jealousy too, from extravagance too. If there were no boundaries, it would be harder to maintain a certain form of appropriate too. This extends to protecting men from women, men from jealousy and men from extravagance which are all applicable in Islam to them just as much as they have a dress code and code of conduct. If you refuse to accept that that is what Islam says, then that is unfortunate and a result of the misconceptions of the teachings of Islam that Muslims have and therefore they don’t always act upon.

Everyone has their own view on what is and isn't appropriate and that is why there are so many different people in the world. Muslims are a type of people and that is their view from their Islamic teachings.

As we see nowadays there is more and more vulgarity and obscenity in the media as there are no rules as such governing them, so there is nothing stopping people from acting or dressing 'inappropriately', (I use inverted commas as it is only my opinion (which I am using to explain the issue), that some people act and dress inappropriately in the media and in society for that matter and it is probably not their opinion).

alwald wrote: »

Allow me to rephrase, in the Muslim world there are powerful woman, that make a lot of money and that contribute to their families more than the man, when it comes to the inheritance, as per the Islamic law, the woman will get less than the man regardless if she contributed more than him to the day to day expenses, how fair is this?

If the Muslim women is powerful and wealthy that's fantastic but it remains the obligation of the man to bear the financial burden and she has the full right to support and help her husband if he needs support.
Plus re-read the example I have given, whether the women is wealthy or not is not even the subject of the discussion we are looking at the financial responsibility of both sexes with regard to the issue.

alwald wrote: »

it's possible that all the men aren't looking to have kids, why it wouldn't be possible?

If you want to discuss this sexwise,since your argument for polyandry is a situation were a women might have a high sex drive to the point where she needs 4 men to satisfy her desire.

#1)The Man has a higher sex drive then women:
http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare

#2)I don't need to go into further detail regarding the situation whereby a single women is being shared between 4 men who all happen to not want children and who also happen to have a higher sex drive then her.

alwald wrote: »

Under Christianity and Judaism Marriage is an institution for starting a family too, they don't allow polygamy so why this difference - See I didn't want to compare different religions but it seems to me that you want to do so, based on that I will start comparisons too.

Polygamy is not explicitly forbidden in Judaism and Christianity scriptures as the bible is littered with examples of polygamy without prohibiting the practice.

alwald wrote: »

I will compare too, Christianity and Judaism are older than Islam and as such there was polygamy at the time too, why these two religions didn't encourage polygamy? as a result polygamy doesn't exist by law in countries where Christianity and Judaism are the main religion meanwhile it exists in Muslim countries which creates a big difference between Men and Women.

Islam as a religion encourage monogamy more then Christianity and Judaism as it's the only scripture in the face of the earth that says "marry only one"
As you mentioned it's the law of the country that forbid and not the scripture

It was only later on that the Church had put a ban that a Christian should marry only one and in 1950 the chief rabbi passed a law that the Jews should marry only one it's not the scripture.

alwald wrote: »

you are well aware the the prophet Muhamed married a 7 years old girl and consummated the marriage at the age of 9 based on some sources and at the age of 12 based on other sources, what's your view about that? the Prophet of a religion who is meant to be the most perfect of all men marrying a 7 years old woman

The prophet marriage to Aisha is outside the scoop of this thread as we are discussing women rights in Islam, however if you can present to me a single hadith by Aisha the most beloved person to him and the women he choose to die on her lap, out of the 2000+ she narrated where she stated her displeasure with the prophet her husband or how he oppressed her then you are welcome.

confusedquark · 04-01-2015 01:14AM

katydid wrote: »

You've given me reasons I don't accept. They are not reasons that I, as a mature adult, accept as being necessary for me to interact with the opposite gender. They are not reasons the vast majority of people accept.

I'm not here to convince you. I'm here to explain my perspective, and have largely done that.

katydid wrote: »

You really think that women aren't sexually attracted to men?

What do you think the word "MORE" means?

katydid wrote: »

Women have protection against predatory men; it's called THE LAW. If a woman, or a man for that matter, undergoes unwanted sexual approaches, she or he has the protection of the law. Most - at least 80% can exercise self restraint, and of the other percentile, for the vast majority they make a mutual decision to give in to the sexual or romantic attraction they feel. Otherwise it's sexual assualt or rape.

It's great that women have the law to protect them, but it's not 100% protection - and prosecuting somebody after a rape is closing the gate after the horse has bolted. Whatever the level of protection they do get from the law, it's my belief that their protection will be more if they observed Hijab.

katydid wrote: »

Yes, sometimes relationships engaged in outside marriage can result in family problems, but very often they solve them, if a marriage has reached a point where it is beyond redemption.

You're clutching at straws there. Affairs almost always result in family problems, and are themselves the largest cause of divorces.

katydid wrote: »

It is not the job of religion, or of society, to dictate who they can or can't have a relationship with.

That's your opinion. I disagree with it - and that goes back to the reasons why we're here on this planet in the first place and that is a whole different discussion.

Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

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