Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

LXFlyer · 02-01-2015 05:05PM

dfx- wrote: »

I would suggest that frequency and not being left to wait for the next one is uppermost on the average person's opinion of the service. Deliver old AVs (and some of them already gone were excellent) to take them off the pavement, they'd be more than happy.

Also the average person has an excuse not to look beyond the appearance of a bus, but what is the NTA's excuse. Aren't they the ones who should know what they're buying in a bit more detail. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't look much deeper either.

Extending the life of the fleet risks increased breakdowns and poorer fleet reliability. Do you not remember the 1980s and 1990s when there were multiple daily breakdowns and the tow trucks spent most of their time on the road recovering buses rather than at present sitting in the garages. I would hate for that to happen again. Huge strides in fleet reliability have been made.

At the risk of repeating myself, 12 years of age is pretty much the industry standard amongst major operators for replacing their fleets. So I don't see what the issue is. A small number of buses have had a refurbishment programme to extend their life to 16 years, but that is purely a stop gap measure.

Incidentally I would disagree with you - people do notice older buses and it does create negative impressions - I think it is important to keep the age of the fleet at a reasonable level.

dublindiehard · 02-01-2015 05:25PM

I can tell you that the GT and SG's have created extra demand and people switching from other modes of transport (IE Private Cars) that had negative perceptions about the on board enviornment.

Saying that the old buses would have more capacity is correct, but bringing them back would also reduce passenger numbers on some routes since the new features have been instraumental in bringing back passengers, especially on the likes of the 4 and 7.

The NTA doesn't have an excuse nor does it need one. The newer styled interior vehicles have attracted new passengers ot public transport rather than just retaining existing ones. That is something positive.

I agree that frequency is important as well, but some people will never use a bus no matter what the frequency because of negative experiences in the past and previous perceptions.

By offering something that appears to be different from the past people will give things another go and you need to change the perceptions, turn heads and make people think that the environment has changed. This is what the enhancements made in recent years has done.

I can tell you for certain, that I know people who would ditch certain routes straight away if they went back to AV style interiors. Like it or not, there are people, not like us posters on here, who think like this.

cdebru · 02-01-2015 06:14PM

dublindiehard wrote: »

I can tell you that the GT and SG's have created extra demand and people switching from other modes of transport (IE Private Cars) that had negative perceptions about the on board enviornment.

Saying that the old buses would have more capacity is correct, but bringing them back would also reduce passenger numbers on some routes since the new features have been instraumental in bringing back passengers, especially on the likes of the 4 and 7.

The NTA doesn't have an excuse nor does it need one. The newer styled interior vehicles have attracted new passengers ot public transport rather than just retaining existing ones. That is something positive.

I agree that frequency is important as well, but some people will never use a bus no matter what the frequency because of negative experiences in the past and previous perceptions.

By offering something that appears to be different from the past people will give things another go and you need to change the perceptions, turn heads and make people think that the environment has changed. This is what the enhancements made in recent years has done.

I can tell you for certain, that I know people who would ditch certain routes straight away if they went back to AV style interiors. Like it or not, there are people, not like us posters on here, who think like this.

Crap most people don't even notice what bus type they are on, its not like the AV is a terrible bus, the only people who pay attention to that are anoraks, for the first few weeks they smell new but after that they are just a bus.

What are the amazing features that these people sitting in their cars noticed as the SG passed them by that persuaded them to abandon their cars are move to public transport ? WiFi ? That's on all buses, stop announcements ? On all buses, Next stop display ? On all buses . It must be the center doors, and it must be the cliff hanger of anticipation to find out when they will open that keeps them coming back for more.
What attracts people to public transport is frequency, reliability of journey time and cost. The bus being "nice" is a bonus not a game changer.
Passenger numbers are up because of a general upturn in the economy in Dublin, not because of the arrival of the SG or the demise of the AV.

cdebru · 02-01-2015 06:17PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Extending the life of the fleet risks increased breakdowns and poorer fleet reliability. Do you not remember the 1980s and 1990s when there were multiple daily breakdowns and the tow trucks spent most of their time on the road recovering buses rather than at present sitting in the garages. I would hate for that to happen again. Huge strides in fleet reliability have been made.

At the risk of repeating myself, 12 years of age is pretty much the industry standard amongst major operators for replacing their fleets. So I don't see what the issue is. A small number of buses have had a refurbishment programme to extend their life to 16 years, but that is purely a stop gap measure.

Incidentally I would disagree with you - people do notice older buses and it does create negative impressions - I think it is important to keep the age of the fleet at a reasonable level.

True but most of the breakdowns in recent years have been new buses not old ones, due to them overheating, I believe an NTA decision to move to electrical motors to run cooling systems rather than the traditional mechanically powered cooling was the main issue. As the electric motors overheated.

KD345 · 02-01-2015 06:18PM

I think finding a balance between the two is key. New buses will always be welcomed by passengers, but at 8am when you're trying to get to work, standing on an AV would be welcomed compared to watching a GT pass by your stop. Having enough capacity to cope with passenger demand is equally as important.

Aside from double doors, the older fleet now feature almost everything offered by the GT and SG class. WiFi, next stop display, low floor, real time and LED displays are now common across the fleet.

end of the road · 02-01-2015 06:39PM

cdebru wrote: »

I believe an NTA decision to move to electrical motors to run cooling systems rather than the traditional mechanically powered cooling

oh really? interesting if true. what would they know about that? that sort of thing should be left to the mechanics in dublin bus who know about these things. the athority should be concentrating on passenger issues and not the type of motors a bus has, doing so does not make them knowledgable or give them more legitimacy

devnull · 02-01-2015 06:55PM

cdebru wrote: »

Crap most people don't even notice what bus type they are on, its not like the AV is a terrible bus, the only people who pay attention to that are anoraks, for the first few weeks they smell new but after that they are just a bus.

Believe it or not there are some people out there who do not use Dublin Bus because of negative perceptions from the past about comfort, leaky windows and suchlike. You are thinking too much about what you want and like a long term bus user, rather than like a non bus user.

There are also a huge swathe of people who use the private car and will never use a bus, so the product needs to be improved and made more attractive to them. To the car user, the SG is a vastly more welcoming interior to the early 1990s style interior found in the other vehicles.

If such things do not matter, then pray tell why are Bus Eireann spending tens of millions of rebranding intercity services, vastly upgraded interiors, expensive marketing campaigns stating that the on-board experience has changed and why are Irish Rail and Nothern Ireland Railways spending money on Refurbishing the Enterprise, since after all it doesn't matter does it?

It's to change perceptions and to attract people out of the private car. Exactly the same as is happening in Dublin Bus.

What are the amazing features that these people sitting in their cars noticed as the SG passed them by that persuaded them to abandon their cars are move to public transport ? WiFi ? That's on all buses, stop announcements ? On all buses, Next stop display ? On all buses . It must be the center doors, and it must be the cliff hanger of anticipation to find out when they will open that keeps them coming back for more.

Next stop announcements are not on all buses and have been turned right down to almost a whisper (intentional or not) on at least a few buses over the past few weeks, and displays are only on all vehicles built since 2008 with only a handful of 2007 vehicles also having them and nothing else.

The seating actually is more attractive to car users because studies have been done in the past that show that private car users value personal space pretty highly and they like it on public transport. The Gemini interior is much more brighter and airy and quieter than the older vehicles, which suffer from a reputation of being diry, dark, with leaky windows and smelly. These perceptions are straight away banished.

What attracts people to public transport is frequency, reliability of journey time and cost. The bus being "nice" is a bonus not a game changer.

I completely agree that they are the biggest factors, and for a group of society, those without access to a car and those dependent on public transport, like you and me and regular existing commuters they will be virtually, but not fully, the only things that matter.

However for a group of society which is not dependent on public transport and does not have access to a car, they want something more and they want comfort, personal space and a feeling that the experience can get closer to what they are giving up to make them start and stay using the bus.

Passenger numbers are up because of a general upturn in the economy in Dublin, not because of the arrival of the SG or the demise of the AV.

See above. The regular commuters without access to a car will come back for the reasons you say, but there is a section of society, especially in the middle to higher incomes, who have been attracted by a better on-board environment. I don't just think this, I work with some people who have switched for this reason.

KD345 wrote: »

I think finding a balance between the two is key. New buses will always be welcomed by passengers, but at 8am when you're trying to get to work, standing on an AV would be welcomed compared to watching a GT pass by your stop. Having enough capacity to cope with passenger demand is equally as important.

I completely agree that there needs to be a balance, however if used properly and the fare system is simplified and the stops are made suitable for double doors, the newer dual door SG/GT's would allow a reduction in running times, which would allow a more frequent service to be provided with the same number of buses, thereby increasing capacity.

Dublin Bus needs to attract more passengers to grow and improve as a company. Just offering more of the same that has been offered since the 90s doesn't do that since the company had lots of people who gained negative perceptions in that time and they have to change them.

As I stated earlier, if perceptions were not important, then why are BE bothering to completely rebrand intercity routes, vastly upgrade their vehicles and spend money on advertising. Surely it's wasted money for them too?

end of the road wrote: »

oh really? interesting if true. what would they know about that? that sort of thing should be left to the mechanics in dublin bus who know about these things. the athority should be concentrating on passenger issues and not the type of motors a bus has, doing so does not make them knowledgable or give them more legitimacy

Thankfully the days of handing over blank cheques and telling a company it can do what they like with the cash is long over and not a moment too soon since that was responsible for some of the very worst issues of the Celtic Tiger.

If the NTA is going to spend tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers money on vehicles, I think they have a right to have a say about the specification of the vehicles themselves. I have no idea if the NTA forced the vehicles to be specified with such motors, but they are paying after all.

cdebru · 02-01-2015 08:00PM

devnull wrote: »

Believe it or not there are some people out there who do not use Dublin Bus because of negative perceptions from the past about comfort, leaky windows and suchlike. You are thinking too much about what you want and like a long term bus user, rather than like a non bus user.

There are also a huge swathe of people who use the private car and will never use a bus, so the product needs to be improved and made more attractive to them. To the car user, the SG is a vastly more welcoming interior to the early 1990s style interior found in the other vehicles.

If such things do not matter, then pray tell why are Bus Eireann spending tens of millions of rebranding intercity services, vastly upgraded interiors, expensive marketing campaigns stating that the on-board experience has changed and why are Irish Rail and Nothern Ireland Railways spending money on Refurbishing the Enterprise, since after all it doesn't matter does it?

It's to change perceptions and to attract people out of the private car. Exactly the same as is happening in Dublin Bus.

Next stop announcements are not on all buses and have been turned right down to almost a whisper (intentional or not) on at least a few buses over the past few weeks, and displays are only on all vehicles built since 2008 with only a handful of 2007 vehicles also having them and nothing else.

The seating actually is more attractive to car users because studies have been done in the past that show that private car users value personal space pretty highly and they like it on public transport. The Gemini interior is much more brighter and airy and quieter than the older vehicles, which suffer from a reputation of being diry, dark, with leaky windows and smelly. These perceptions are straight away banished.

I completely agree that they are the biggest factors, and for a group of society, those without access to a car and those dependent on public transport, like you and me and regular existing commuters they will be virtually, but not fully, the only things that matter.

However for a group of society which is not dependent on public transport and does not have access to a car, they want something more and they want comfort, personal space and a feeling that the experience can get closer to what they are giving up to make them start and stay using the bus.

See above. The regular commuters without access to a car will come back for the reasons you say, but there is a section of society, especially in the middle to higher incomes, who have been attracted by a better on-board environment. I don't just think this, I work with some people who have switched for this reason.

I completely agree that there needs to be a balance, however if used properly and the fare system is simplified and the stops are made suitable for double doors, the newer dual door SG/GT's would allow a reduction in running times, which would allow a more frequent service to be provided with the same number of buses, thereby increasing capacity.

Dublin Bus needs to attract more passengers to grow and improve as a company. Just offering more of the same that has been offered since the 90s doesn't do that since the company had lots of people who gained negative perceptions in that time and they have to change them.

As I stated earlier, if perceptions were not important, then why are BE bothering to completely rebrand intercity routes, vastly upgrade their vehicles and spend money on advertising. Surely it's wasted money for them too?

Thankfully the days of handing over blank cheques and telling a company it can do what they like with the cash is long over and not a moment too soon since that was responsible for some of the very worst issues of the Celtic Tiger.

If the NTA is going to spend tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers money on vehicles, I think they have a right to have a say about the specification of the vehicles themselves. I have no idea if the NTA forced the vehicles to be specified with such motors, but they are paying after all.

There may be some people and you may indeed know them but the vast vast majority of people don't care who made the bus, what its depot history is, whether it ever had coca cola ads all over it or anything else. There is no vast sea change between SG or GT class and AV or AX they are all good buses the AVs have done there time and in 12 years time the SGs will look like buses that have done their time. Yes people like new buses but they are much more concerned about the thing turning up and getting them to their destination than what year, or size engine it has, and if you are standing on one for over an hour it doesn't matter how plush or inviting the seats maybe.
The stop announcements are on all buses, they may have been turned down on some because they were too loud or maybe the people who are never happy just kept complaining about them.
I'm not an anorak but as far as I know the interior led signs are either fitted or in the process of being fitted to all buses, ( except the ones they were withdrawing), google says AV1 and AV420 had them over a year ago.

As for the double doors you are correct the NTA have done the easy bit and bought buses with double doors, now time to do the hard bit which was always the problem and sort out the bus stops until then the double doors will remain a nice decoration but serve no real purpose.

Perception is important but delivery is more important you can have buses that look the dogs b

but if they don't arrive on time and get people were they want to go reliably and quickly then they are a waste of money.

Better on board environment is not just nice seats IMO it is safety and cracking down anti social behaviour that is not addressed by nicer seats or wifi, and won't be addressed until you have proper transport policing.

All that has changed is who you hand the cheques to, it is easy to buy buses anyone can do it the hard part is buying the right ones and providing the infrastructure and environment for them to operate efficiently in.

punisher5112 · 02-01-2015 08:11PM

They need to police the bus network to get people to use as on some sitting upstairs is a no go area.

There are a lot who just should not be allowed travel as they damage vehicles, smoke, do drugs, leave syringes on seats, urinate and also do the number 2 on seats, also bother and intimidate other passengers.

Heating I feel is a big problem with barely any heat been blown out to ice cold buses.
Even the Gt type have a terrible design flaw where heat vents are above the windows. Heat should be low as we all know heat rises and I find very little heat output and a good few none at all.

Tag on/off and take away interaction with drivers as it takes too long.

A touch screen info board would be a good addition to the fleet and as others have said put names of roads on machines onto the display instead of some that I have never heard of even on routes been driving on for years.

WiFi is a great addition but you can't pleaser everyone as when on occasion it is down some do come to us going nuts about having no internet.

joegriffinjnr · 02-01-2015 08:35PM

Tag on/off and take away interaction with drivers as it takes too long.

Plus a million on this, the current setup is a joke and takes longer than a cash fare. Take the driver out of the equation altogether.

devnull · 02-01-2015 08:39PM

cdebru wrote: »

There may be some people and you may indeed know them but the vast vast majority of people don't care who made the bus, what its depot history is, whether it ever had coca cola ads all over it or anything else.

And I agree with you, but any transport company should try and attract new users and adapt and move forward, that is something Dublin Bus have been historically very poor at until the last two or three years.

There is no vast sea change between SG or GT class and AV or AX they are all good buses the AVs have done there time and in 12 years time the SGs will look like buses that have done their time. [/quote[

Again you need to look at things from the point of view as others. This is your opinion but there are people who think different and these represent a chance for Dublin Bus to grow their business and Dublin Bus need to think of attracting new customers, how they can do that, as well as existing

The stop announcements are on all buses, they may have been turned down on some because they were too loud or maybe the people who are never happy just kept complaining about them.

Strange thing, is all the vehicles that I've seen the quiet announcements on belong to the same depot, whilst other depots vehicles on the same routes have been working fine. Suggests that is something related to the depot, maybe a complete co-incidence or maybe some decision that has been taken by someone somewhere.

I'm not an anorak but as far as I know the interior led signs are either fitted or in the process of being fitted to all buses, ( except the ones they were withdrawing), google says AV1 and AV420 had them over a year ago.

There has only been a tender gone out for a few more signs recently, it will be most likely a few months before any units arrive let alone be fitted. AV1 and AV420 use a different system that has been non operational for years, and zero of the several hundred AV/AX/DT class have any displays fitted, barely any of the 70 VT's, few of the 2007 VT's. Approaching 75% of the fleet doesn't have them.

As for the double doors you are correct the NTA have done the easy bit and bought buses with double doors, now time to do the hard bit which was always the problem and sort out the bus stops until then the double doors will remain a nice decoration but serve no real purpose.

I agree that they need to sort the bus stops out and nowhere would I say a driver needs to open the centre doors where it is unsafe. But some drivers simply plain refuse to use them at all when it is safe to do so and the bus stops are very well designed. Instead they harp on about a union ruling saying that they should not be forced to open double doors at every stop, and then point to it and say it's an excuse not to use them at all.

Perception is important but delivery is more important you can have buses that look the dogs b
but if they don't arrive on time and get people were they want to go reliably and quickly then they are a waste of money.

Better on board environment is not just nice seats IMO it is safety and cracking down anti social behaviour that is not addressed by nicer seats or wifi, and won't be addressed until you have proper transport policing.

And I completely agree with that and all of those aspects have to be the number one priority, However as a business Dublin Bus should look to grow and enhance it's customer base to convince people who don't have to use the bus, to decide to do so, rather than just depend on the fact that some people don't have any other choice so they will always come no matter what and therefore there is no need to make any improvements.

All that has changed is who you hand the cheques to, it is easy to buy buses anyone can do it the hard part is buying the right ones and providing the infrastructure and environment for them to operate efficiently in.

Believe me, when Dublin Bus had a greater choice of buying vehicles in the past they hardly covered themselves in glory by their choices.

devnull · 02-01-2015 08:43PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Heating I feel is a big problem with barely any heat been blown out to ice cold buses.

Even the Gt type have a terrible design flaw where heat vents are above the windows. Heat should be low as we all know heat rises and I find very little heat output and a good few none at all.

Actually when the windows are not open I find that works a hell of a lot better, since it runs the whole length of the bus rather than one ****ty little heater downstairs near the back.

And it's 100 times better than the vast majority of EV's which cannot output any air that is warm let alone hot. The AX's are not much better.

end of the road · 02-01-2015 08:51PM

devnull wrote: »

Thankfully the days of handing over blank cheques and telling a company it can do what they like with the cash is long over and not a moment too soon since that was responsible for some of the very worst issues of the Celtic Tiger.

and that has what got to do with motors?

devnull wrote: »

If the NTA is going to spend tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers money on vehicles, I think they have a right to have a say about the specification of the vehicles themselves.

in terms of the passenger environment fine. in terms of the specifications of things i can't see them knowing anything about unlike those maintaining the busses, best they stay out of it

devnull wrote: »

I have no idea if the NTA forced the vehicles to be specified with such motors, but they are paying after all.

that doesn't mean they should have a say on something they may know nothing about if its the case. they should concentrate on the passenger environment, and leave the mechanics to specify the mechanical side of the busses.

punisher5112 · 02-01-2015 08:51PM

devnull wrote: »

Actually when the windows are not open I find that works a hell of a lot better, since it runs the whole length of the bus rather than one ****ty little heater downstairs near the back.

And it's 100 times better than the vast majority of EV's which cannot output any air that is warm let alone hot. The AX's are not much better.

problem not been able to have a window open is no clean air as the heaters are re circulating air so in turn all windows fog up including drivers windscreen which then causes problems also don't get me started on the smell.

I loved the RV as this had a single heater that worked 99% of the time but was well able to heat the bus and if you didn't have a window or 2 open you would be on the floor with heat exhaustion.

I have found a lot of gt heaters are not working or aren't pushing much hot air out at all.

The only good thing added is the option to adjust air flow from windscreen to feet as this was not possible on any previous except the wv single Decker.

I find having the windscreen demister on can dry out your eyes.

AlekSmart · 02-01-2015 11:25PM

cdebru wrote: »

True but most of the breakdowns in recent years have been new buses not old ones, due to them overheating, I believe an NTA decision to move to electrical motors to run cooling systems rather than the traditional mechanically powered cooling was the main issue. As the electric motors overheated.

Just to clarify the "Electric Motor" issue,and to give the NTA a break as well.

The GT & SG class Volvo B9 and B5 TL's were a new departure for Volvo,and indeed,the industry.

Traditionally the radiator cooling fan was driven by,firstly,a direct shaft and belts,then a hydraulic pump and motor system,all of which require direct engine supplied power to function,thereby reducing the engine power available to do other stuff,such as move the Bus....

The AV & AX class have often featured in the "Roaring Fan" threads as many of them suffered Hydraulic Valve malfunctions which locked the Fan into full-on mode.

This issue is well known wherever the Volvo B7 and B9's operate and has been the subject of much technical tinkering from Volvo itself......under warranty of course !

With the later Euro 5 Emission regulations demanding far stricter engine management from their engines,Volvo moved to a bank of electrically driven fans to replace the old direct driven system.

The system utilises 5 high power axial motors controlled through the engine ECU,to allow for far tighter temperature regulation as well as far less power wastage from the engine itself.

Like ALL new systems,the Electric Coolong Fan arrangement has taken some time to bed in,but the most recent new fan motors appear to be performing well.

The SG,however,with it's TOTALLY new,and very small engine,(5.1 Litre) provides yet another challenge to the system as it is operating at a far higher temperature band requiring tight control,which does appear to have been successfully achieved at the moment.

The percieved failures are NOT down to either the NTA or Dublin Bus,and are well documented throughout the UK Bus Industry as a whole.

This is what in-service development is all about,with the speed of the Manufacturers response being of more importance than the actual problem itself.

VG31 · 02-01-2015 11:34PM

From my own experience I find the heating on EVs to be bad but good on VGs.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know the heating upstairs in the EVs comes from the front but from the back in VGs. I have often felt cold air coming from the heater upstairs on EVs. If you sit at the back on VGs your legs can get very warm.

On GTs I've sometimes found my feet getting very warm if I'm beside one of the heaters on the left near the ground.

cdebru · 03-01-2015 03:30AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Just to clarify the "Electric Motor" issue,and to give the NTA a break as well.

The GT & SG class Volvo B9 and B5 TL's were a new departure for Volvo,and indeed,the industry.

Traditionally the radiator cooling fan was driven by,firstly,a direct shaft and belts,then a hydraulic pump and motor system,all of which require direct engine supplied power to function,thereby reducing the engine power available to do other stuff,such as move the Bus....

The AV & AX class have often featured in the "Roaring Fan" threads as many of them suffered Hydraulic Valve malfunctions which locked the Fan into full-on mode.

This issue is well known wherever the Volvo B7 and B9's operate and has been the subject of much technical tinkering from Volvo itself......under warranty of course !

With the later Euro 5 Emission regulations demanding far stricter engine management from their engines,Volvo moved to a bank of electrically driven fans to replace the old direct driven system.

The system utilises 5 high power axial motors controlled through the engine ECU,to allow for far tighter temperature regulation as well as far less power wastage from the engine itself.

Like ALL new systems,the Electric Coolong Fan arrangement has taken some time to bed in,but the most recent new fan motors appear to be performing well.

The SG,however,with it's TOTALLY new,and very small engine,(5.1 Litre) provides yet another challenge to the system as it is operating at a far higher temperature band requiring tight control,which does appear to have been successfully achieved at the moment.

The percieved failures are NOT down to either the NTA or Dublin Bus,and are well documented throughout the UK Bus Industry as a whole.

This is what in-service development is all about,with the speed of the Manufacturers response being of more importance than the actual problem itself.

Fair enough Alek but the overheating problems predate the SGs ironic that the investment in new fleet to avoid reliability issues with the older fleet actually involves more breakdowns, but on another point I have big doubt's that, that 5 litre engine will be anything but reliable, at the end of the day a smaller engine will just have to work harder, and will wear out quicker.

PS never really noticed any major fan problem with AV or AXs it was the RA and RVs that I remember having the screaming fan problem.

cdebru · 03-01-2015 03:59AM

devnull wrote: »

And I agree with you, but any transport company should try and attract new users and adapt and move forward, that is something Dublin Bus have been historically very poor at until the last two or three years.

There is no vast sea change between SG or GT class and AV or AX they are all good buses the AVs have done there time and in 12 years time the SGs will look like buses that have done their time. [/quote[

Again you need to look at things from the point of view as others. This is your opinion but there are people who think different and these represent a chance for Dublin Bus to grow their business and Dublin Bus need to think of attracting new customers, how they can do that, as well as existing

Strange thing, is all the vehicles that I've seen the quiet announcements on belong to the same depot, whilst other depots vehicles on the same routes have been working fine. Suggests that is something related to the depot, maybe a complete co-incidence or maybe some decision that has been taken by someone somewhere.

There has only been a tender gone out for a few more signs recently, it will be most likely a few months before any units arrive let alone be fitted. AV1 and AV420 use a different system that has been non operational for years, and zero of the several hundred AV/AX/DT class have any displays fitted, barely any of the 70 VT's, few of the 2007 VT's. Approaching 75% of the fleet doesn't have them.

I agree that they need to sort the bus stops out and nowhere would I say a driver needs to open the centre doors where it is unsafe. But some drivers simply plain refuse to use them at all when it is safe to do so and the bus stops are very well designed. Instead they harp on about a union ruling saying that they should not be forced to open double doors at every stop, and then point to it and say it's an excuse not to use them at all.

And I completely agree with that and all of those aspects have to be the number one priority, However as a business Dublin Bus should look to grow and enhance it's customer base to convince people who don't have to use the bus, to decide to do so, rather than just depend on the fact that some people don't have any other choice so they will always come no matter what and therefore there is no need to make any improvements.

Believe me, when Dublin Bus had a greater choice of buying vehicles in the past they hardly covered themselves in glory by their choices.

A couple of things,

1 I don't have any problem with fleet renewal its a good thing, but I don't accept that AVs are so bad and SGs are so good that people will leave their cars to ride on an SG.

2 hanging onto AVs to expand the fleet is only a good thing there is no downside the fleet is larger the service will be better, there isn't money for another 20 new SGs so it is retain 20 AVs or nothing. And it is patent nonsense to suggest that people would rather wait 15 minutes for a bus that's an SG than 10 minutes for an AV to such an extent that they would return to their car in disgust. We are not talking about cattle trucks vs modern public buses get real it is only really anoraks that get that bothered.

I know there was complaints that some announcements were too loud on certain buses it might be that they have been turned down too much.

Yes some people just refuse to use them and its not a union rule, its a Labour court ruling and the best way to get that ruling reversed is to address the problems with center door use that were identified in that ruling, but no attempt was ever made to do that instead they just got rid of the center doors, and now the NTA has brought them back without making any effort to address why they didn't work before. It is doomed to failure unless they address bus stop design, but instead you see Dublin bike stands being built at the approach to the stop on parkgate street and you have to wonder does anyone at the NTA understand why center doors are not used? Did anyone read the Labour court judgment? Has anyone at the NTA had a look at bus stop design in other successful public transport systems, or do they think it will all just fix itself?

Lastly I wasn't suggesting DB always got it right far from it, the debacle of the first 100 or so AVs with their reflection problems is a perfect exame of DB getting it badly wrong, but the NTA are not covering themselves in glory either which was my point the blank cheques are just being handed to other people doesn't make it all better.

_Kaiser_ · 03-01-2015 05:10PM

Have to say I fully agree with cdebru above.. as nice as new toys like ...

- on-board Wi-Fi (not even sure who that's targeted at as you can get up to 15GB on most consumer phone packages now and even more with business plans - even PAYG offers "all you can eat"/"unlimited" data)
- "friendlier" interiors (but it's still a cramped crowded mass transit vehicle no matter how you spin it - it'll never match the private car for comfort)
- patchy RTPI (certainly the handful of times I've gotten a bus in the last 3 years it's been unreliable)

... are, the core issues of reliability, cost and convenience (for the passenger not the staff) remain key.

I echo the point that most people won't notice or care what bus turns up as long as it DOES actually turn up, they can get on, and it'll get them where they need to be. The idea floated by some that a new bus with fancier (and less!) seating will make car drivers switch back is a pipe dream IMO.

As one such car driver who used buses for 30 years before buying his first car, for me to consider switching back it shouldn't cost me double what it used to (in 2006 ish) to get to town considering we've since had a recession, mass unemployment/wage cuts, and cutbacks in DB services, and considering that most such car drivers probably won't sell the car so will be paying tax and insurance on it too.

I shouldn't need to rely on apps or RTPI to plan my journey - they're nice to have sure but the bus should be just there when it's supposed to be regardless of toys, and I certainly shouldn't have to deal with the antisocial element present on many routes I used to get.

None of these have changed in the last 10 years, nevermind 30 years. New shiny buses won't do anything to address those points either!

dfx- · 03-01-2015 05:40PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Extending the life of the fleet risks increased breakdowns and poorer fleet reliability. Do you not remember the 1980s and 1990s when there were multiple daily breakdowns and the tow trucks spent most of their time on the road recovering buses rather than at present sitting in the garages. I would hate for that to happen again. Huge strides in fleet reliability have been made.

At the risk of repeating myself, 12 years of age is pretty much the industry standard amongst major operators for replacing their fleets. So I don't see what the issue is. A small number of buses have had a refurbishment programme to extend their life to 16 years, but that is purely a stop gap measure.

Incidentally I would disagree with you - people do notice older buses and it does create negative impressions - I think it is important to keep the age of the fleet at a reasonable level.

The fleet is newer, not more reliable. The AVs are some of the best buses in the fleet, they're warm (AXs are not), they have extra seats, they're comfortable with cushioning (not like EVs) and bench seats than single ones. I happened to be on AV161 on the 13 last night, in excellent condition.

If anything, those reconditioned AVs, AV153-AV161 show that buses looked after will last longer. Buses that leave are left to rot and it will be the same for GTs, they're no more reliable and being new technology, who knows harder to fix. RVs were the most reliable bus in decades, but in their last 12 months they broke down as they were left to rot.

devnull wrote: »

There has only been a tender gone out for a few more signs recently, it will be most likely a few months before any units arrive let alone be fitted. AV1 and AV420 use a different system that has been non operational for years, and zero of the several hundred AV/AX/DT class have any displays fitted, barely any of the 70 VT's, few of the 2007 VT's. Approaching 75% of the fleet doesn't have them.

But both AV420 and AV386 have the internal stop displays, upstairs too. I caught AV386 a couple of weeks ago, it has had it for months. They're both fully functional. AV1's never worked like much of the stuff on AV1 which had a hard life.

There's also another scrambled display in Ringsend, I can't remember which bus, I think it's AV319.

lucernarian · 03-01-2015 07:41PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Not misleading at all,in fact.

The key to understanding this is to be aware that those capacity figures for standees,are based upon the vehicles plated weight capacity,both total and individual axle related.

The GT and SG class are both constructed to the European Whole of Vehicle Type Approval (WVTA) standard which significantly differs from the old UK based "Construction & Use" regulations.

Probably the most visible manifestation of this is the lack of seprate Emergency Exits on Dual Doored bus models,plus the absence of Legal Lettering from the side of the vehicles.

In the case of the NTA spec Volvo B5TL/Super Gemini 3 Body,it is some 650 Kg lighter than the B9Tl Gemini 2 GT class.

In 2012,the notional weight for a PSV passsenger,under WVTA, was increased to 65KG,which therefore,allows for an extra 10 Passengers to be accomodated before reaching the Max Gross Vehicle Weight figure.

The Passenger Capacity Figures quoted on the plate are accurate only in so far as seating capacity is provided,in the case of the SG 67 total (Inc the 3 flip-downs).

The 27+ Standing Capacity as outlined is therefore an entirely notional figure.

The regulations governing this can be found here....(NB:The Road Traffic Acts classify Standing Passengers as "Additional Passengers" throughout )

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/si/0190.html#zzsi190y1963a80

The RSA also offers a simplified explanation here....(Top of Page 9)

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Vehicle%20regs/Weights_Dimensions_Leaflet.pdf

I hope you can see therefore that my post was neither "slightly or very misleading",nor containing "false assertions".

The reality is,that 67 seats is less than 72,with an additional element being the further reduction of available seating in the lower saloon,a consideration which was one of the prime reasons for Dublin Bus specifing the single door layout of the original AV class.

In search for sources I took the numbers from http://www.dublinbus.cc/sgs.htm at face value and from looking at them it appeared to me that they would be explained by having greater floor area dedicated to standing passengers. Now this very much puts me at odds with what KD345 quoted but I am only going by what I can find online having not regularly travelled on an SG. Perhaps someone can check and report here what total standee capacity is?

Although there is a legal definition difference it lools to me that the total passenger capacity is greater on the SG class than at least some other single-door twin axle buses that Dublin Bus offer. I presume CIE self-insure based on the plated capacities of these buses also? Will they retroactively apply the newer assumed passenger weight mentioned above to the other classes of bus in the fleet?

Given that one of Aleksmart's main points was the reduction in capacity owing to an NTA specification, I still regard quoting seat numbers as being misleading. Even if there is uncertainty over standee capacity, wouldnt removing seats in general lead to MORE space for standees?? Its been my experience from using the different DART and Commuter Irish Rail stock over the years.

I don't mean to be a contrary grouch about it but I still don't see this talk of "seat reductions" as being anything but a red herring.

If there is more space for standees on busy routes like the 4 than there is on the GTs, surely it would be a good idea to use them? (This is assuming that total capacity as legally defined and self-insured by CIE is bigger than at least some of the previous classes)

lucernarian · 03-01-2015 08:16PM

Well I checked an SG just there and it does say max 27 standees but when looking at the available floorspace I really doubt it would fit 27 so I concede that much. It is easier to hold 27 when there are middle doors though between the extra railings and crucially an alternative exit for people stuck at the back.

I don't like this focus on seating capacity anyway, total capacity would be the more relevant number IMO.

Buy more triaxles basically! The spec of bus in Hong Kong (their Alexander Enviro 500s anyway) would be great for Dublin Bus on most core routes.

_Kaiser_ · 03-01-2015 08:34PM

lucernarian wrote: »

Buy more triaxles basically! The spec of bus in Hong Kong (their Alexander Enviro 500s anyway) would be great for Dublin Bus on most core routes.

That would make sense, as well as smaller single deckers for less frequent/lower use routes.. I don't see why DB is so obsessed with double deckers when most fleets have a mix of vehicles for different purposes (as DB USED to have I might add!)

It can't be cost effective to run a double decker at one-third capacity when a smaller vehicle would make more sense?

But if they did buy more tri/multi-ax's then multi-door is a must! The nonsense that was the bendi-buses using only the front doors must never happen again (and I remain unconvinced about this "safety" excuse being used to justify it when buses all over the world can operate multi-door vehicles in towns and cities that are a hell of a lot busier or cluttered than Dublin!)

Spanish Eyes · 03-01-2015 08:35PM

There should be a flat fare of €3 cash and 1.50 LEAP or something like that. The waste of time interracting with the driver when either using LEAP or cash is totally unacceptable, especially to the drivers who must have the patience of a saint TBH.

Flat fare on LEAP means no interraction with the driver, just hit the machine on the right. Flat cash fare... no fiddling around with uneven prices.

As another poster said, that is what happens in certain cities in France. The driver just gives you a ticket for a flat cash fare, all other transactions with cards are at a validator. Works extremely well.

I would honestly be home ten minutes quicker if foostering around for coins and cash and having to place the LEAP card at the driver's machine were eliminated.

Another thing I would love to see are route maps on buses, like on the DART and the LUAS. I know there are announcements and such now, but when taking an unfamiliar route, it would be great to know how many stops are left! And I know there are route planners and maps on the phone and such. Still. They are on DART and LUAS so why not bus?

edit..... probably the same bus is used for different routes. Still.... the route map could be removed and replaced as required!

_Kaiser_ · 03-01-2015 08:56PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Another thing I would love to see are route maps on buses, like on the DART and the LUAS. I know there are announcements and such now, but when taking an unfamiliar route, it would be great to know how many stops are left! And I know there are route planners and maps on the phone and such. Still. They are on DART and LUAS so why not bus?

edit..... probably the same bus is used for different routes. Still.... the route map could be removed and replaced as required!

All ya need there is some interior screens that are automatically configured when the driver sets up the route/machine.

Spanish Eyes · 03-01-2015 08:59PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

All ya need there is some interior screens that are automatically configured when the driver sets up the route/machine.

Genius!, now why is this not done yet I wonder?

Anyway, I'm more concerned with the dwell times and the unnecessary interraction with the drivers TBH....

end of the road · 03-01-2015 09:06PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That would make sense, as well as smaller single deckers for less frequent/lower use routes.. I don't see why DB is so obsessed with double deckers when most fleets have a mix of vehicles for different purposes (as DB USED to have I might add!)

It can't be cost effective to run a double decker at one-third capacity when a smaller vehicle would make more sense?

its economies of scale and ease of maintenence. probably works out cheeper in the long run, even if running a double decker on a lower used route isn't in itself cheep. it will be there if that route does for whatever reason have a serge in numbers.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But if they did buy more tri/multi-ax's then multi-door is a must! The nonsense that was the bendi-buses using only the front doors must never happen again (and I remain unconvinced about this "safety" excuse being used to justify it when buses all over the world can operate multi-door vehicles in towns and cities that are a hell of a lot busier or cluttered than Dublin!)

well, its safety in terms of the stops and the infrastructure not being set up for multi-door operation. everywhere else that operates multi-door busses has the relevant infrastructure set up for it, so even if a city is more cluttered, the infrastructure is set up taking both of those and the rest in to acount. here however, we just seem to put up a stop and hope for the best.

cdebru · 03-01-2015 10:02PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That would make sense, as well as smaller single deckers for less frequent/lower use routes.. I don't see why DB is so obsessed with double deckers when most fleets have a mix of vehicles for different purposes (as DB USED to have I might add!)

It can't be cost effective to run a double decker at one-third capacity when a smaller vehicle would make more sense?

But if they did buy more tri/multi-ax's then multi-door is a must! The nonsense that was the bendi-buses using only the front doors must never happen again (and I remain unconvinced about this "safety" excuse being used to justify it when buses all over the world can operate multi-door vehicles in towns and cities that are a hell of a lot busier or cluttered than Dublin!)

Whether you are convinced or not is largely irrelevant, there is a Labour court ruling the reasons behind that ruling have never been addressed.
But to demonstrate the point here is the TFL guidance on bus stop design

www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/accessibile-bus-stop-design-guidance.pdf&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNHGBY3OHcDNBeAT2lrfjoNIKMfy8A&sig2=XhI-sYm7rhjeIIkY_Za_Lw

Now head out into Dublin and see how many stops you can find that meet those guidelines.

Other than that I agree completely different buses are needed, I never understood the reason for getting rid of the single deckers and it seems an awful waste to have double deckers driving around carrying a handful of people even at peak times.

hmmm · 03-01-2015 10:15PM

I find the Wifi great. I didn't get the point of it before, but I do now - particularly for those of us with Wifi only tablets.

I hate the couch type seating . I much prefer the new seating with individual seats, and hope this rolls out quickly. The fact that this is uncomfortable for some people is not my problem or my concern.

RTPI is great. I don't have many problems with it.

Communication via the website for pre-planned outages is very good. There is little or no information when a problem occurs however e.g. traffic blockage.

I don't understand why massive triaxles are used at quiet times, and people are packed in like sardines at 5.30 - I've written to DB on a particular issue with the 25a &b routes where two triaxles come through town at breakneck speed around 5.15, and are barely half empty when leaving, while later buses are packed.

Drivers are friendly and helpful for the most part.

Anti-social behaviour is rare, but when it does occur nothing happens. I'd be happy for a bus to pull in and wait for a cop car rather than have to deal with it for the whole journey.

I'd love to see more inspectors - stop people eating on buses, clamp down on people not paying.

poggyone · 03-01-2015 10:29PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

(certainly the handful of times I've gotten a bus in the last 3 years it's been unreliable)

How can you post about DB when by your own admission you have only used the service a handful of time in 3 years? Hyperbole

Dublin Bus - can anyone be happy with the price and service?

Comments