Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Mens Rights Thread

1…5960626465…176

Comments

  • #1832
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't understand your point. Last week is as remote as the 1970s?

    There have been huge advances in women's rights since the 1970s. In any case, why has this come up in the Men's Rights thread?



    You and other seem to be implying that the 1970's were as remote at the distant past . They are not and their affects are still working through the system today .You accept that there have been huge advances in womans rights since then - does that mean you accept we are emerging from a 'patriarchal society' - which is the whole point of this tangential discussion.

    It came up because of post 1799 ( I think)


  • #1833
    Seriously?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭Seriously?


    marienbad wrote: »
    It came up because of post 1799 ( I think)

    Post 1799
    Piliger wrote: »
    Beautifully put.


    Its post 1815
    Piliger wrote: »
    This issue of history is only raised when feminists find themselves void of any real justification of the female privileges that modern feminism has established and is fighting to increase.


  • #1834
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    marienbad wrote: »
    You and other seem to be implying that the 1970's were as remote at the distant past . They are not and their affects are still working through the system today .You accept that there have been huge advances in womans rights since then - does that mean you accept we are emerging from a 'patriarchal society' - which is the whole point of this tangential discussion.

    It came up because of post 1799 ( I think)

    The problem with patriarchy is that children are primarily raised by women, from mothers to teachers childrens earliest interections are with women so at what point does patriarchy come into effect.

    You also need to examine the responsibilities that came with rights in the past.


  • #1835
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    KomradeBishop wrote: »

    Daphne Patai is also a member of the right-wing think-tank 'Foundation for Individual Rights in Education', which is (yet another) right-wing think tank, promoting anti-feminist views (including opposing policies aimed at tackling sexual harassment in US colleges) - a think-tank also staffed by Christina Hoff Sommers, who is associated with other right-wing think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, who promote things such as global warming denial (among many other things).

    It's ironic that Daphne is accusing them, of being "more concerned with political activism than with scholarship and the pursuit of knowledge" or that "openness to any challenge to this ideology or to criticism appears to be at a minimum", when she associates with these politically-motivated, ideological propaganda institutes.
    ".
    I'm not sure why their membership of a right wing think tank should diminish their opinion. They're right wing, many feminists are left wing. Its inevitable that they'll disagree, big deal. Neither have a monopoly on common sense.

    Anti feminist views? What exactly is that? It seems any criticism of feminism could fall under that umbrella. Given that I'm told feminism isn't a hive mind surely the term anti feminist views is contradictory no? What universally agreed feminist position do they disagree with? The reason I point this out is that Christina Hoff Sommers, to whom you've made a tenuous guilt by association link here, is also an established feminist thinker, just one who happens to sit to the right of the ideological divide.


  • #1836
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Seriously? wrote: »
    Post 1799



    Its post 1815

    It was post 1793 I hand in mind from Lemming and the dismissal of 'patriarchy'


  • Advertisement
  • #1837
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    marienbad wrote: »
    You and other seem to be implying that the 1970's were as remote at the distant past . They are not and their affects are still working through the system today .

    What are these effects and how are they still working through the system today?
    You accept that there have been huge advances in womans rights since then - does that mean you accept we are emerging from a 'patriarchal society' - which is the whole point of this tangential discussion.

    An increase in rights != patriarchical society in existence.

    A small elite circle of people - both men & women - in power concerned with holding onto said power & influence has nothing to do with any notion of 'patriarchy'. It's about holding onto power. Nothing that comes from it is benevolent, it's by accident. And the fact that it is men who still do the dangerous and dirty jobs, it is men who are most likely do die, die violently, or kill themselves due to lack of mental support says something for "patriarchy". It's not worth the supposed paper it was written on by feminists.


  • #1838
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    marienbad wrote: »
    It was post 1793 I hand in mind from Lemming and the dismissal of 'patriarchy'

    And no, it was you that brought up one thousand years. And just to refresh your memory, here's the offending quote:
    marienbad wrote: »
    If you need me to elaborate that 'the west' for want of a better expression was a massive patriarchy for thousands of years then I really can't help you.


  • #1839
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Lemming wrote: »
    And no, it was you that brought up one thousand years. And just to refresh your memory, here's the offending quote:

    this is just going round in circles- it was you that brought the whole patriarchy buzz word into it and it kicked off from there , This is just descending into he said I said you said but it is not really revevant to the discussion.


  • #1840
    Pawwed Rig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Mod note - Address the points raised rather than each other


  • #1841
    Maguined
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,247 ✭✭✭Maguined


    marienbad wrote: »
    You and other seem to be implying that the 1970's were as remote at the distant past . They are not and their affects are still working through the system today .You accept that there have been huge advances in womans rights since then - does that mean you accept we are emerging from a 'patriarchal society' - which is the whole point of this tangential discussion.

    It came up because of post 1799 ( I think)

    Listing the things that made life worse for women in the past is not proof that the "patriacrchy" was the cause of this treatment. No one is refuting womens lives have improved, they are refuting your assumption that the cause was patriarchy. Mens lives have also improved from past generations. Since inferior treatment is caused by the patriarchy do you believe the patriarchy was responsibile for the inferior treatment men received in the past? If so then you are proposing the patriarchy was men maintaining control of society so they can make the lives of men worse which is not the definition of patriarchy.


  • Advertisement
  • #1842
    Lemming
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Mod note - Address the points raised rather than each other

    She ain't answered any questions I've put to her.
    marienbad wrote: »
    this is just going round in circles- it was you that brought the whole patriarchy buzz word into it and it kicked off from there , This is just descending into he said I said you said but it is not really revevant to the discussion.

    And no, it wasn't me that mentioned patriarchy actually. Someone else did. I merely pointed out that the word had about as much meaning as a banal pop-song's lyrics.


  • #1843
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Lemming wrote: »
    What are these effects and how are they still working through the system today?



    An increase in rights != patriarchical society in existence.

    A small elite circle of people - both men & women - in power concerned with holding onto said power & influence has nothing to do with any notion of 'patriarchy'. It's about holding onto power. Nothing that comes from it is benevolent, it's by accident. And the fact that it is men who still do the dangerous and dirty jobs, it is men who are most likely do die, die violently, or kill themselves due to lack of mental support says something for "patriarchy". It's not worth the supposed paper it was written on by feminists.

    What are those effects and how are they still working their way through society you ask ?

    Equal pay act 1974 - womens still paid 13% less in 2013

    Marriage bar removed 1973- women still only 25% of senior grades in 2013

    Number of women in the Dail 25

    Limited sale of contraceptives 1979 - limited access to abortion 2014

    There are loads more but that should be enough for now.

    It is like the Ashbourne act in 1885 and the other great land reforms in Ireland. They may have been passed in the 1880's but their effects were still working their way through the system 50 years later. I don't know why we are even discussing these issues .


  • #1844
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    marienbad wrote: »
    What are those effects and how are they still working their way through society you ask ?

    Equal pay act 1974 - womens still paid 13% less in 2013

    Marriage bar removed 1973- women still only 25% of senior grades in 2013

    Number of women in the Dail 25

    Limited sale of contraceptives 1979 - limited access to abortion 2014

    There are loads more but that should be enough for now.

    It is like the Ashbourne act in 1885 and the other great land reforms in Ireland. They may have been passed in the 1880's but their effects were still working their way through the system 50 years later. I don't know why we are even discussing these issues .

    Wasnt the pay gap debunked as it ignores hours worked?


  • #1845
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,864 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    marienbad wrote: »
    What are those effects and how are they still working their way through society you ask ?

    Equal pay act 1974 - womens still paid 13% less in 2013

    Marriage bar removed 1973- women still only 25% of senior grades in 2013

    Number of women in the Dail 25 .

    I would suggest you read up on 'correlation versus causation' and apply it to the issue of gender pay in the workforce.

    Basically what your argument says is this;
      Overall, women's salaries are lower than mens.
    • Therefore there is a gender pay imbalance which must be addressed

    When in actual fact, it's more like this;
      Overall, women's salaries as lower than men. This can be caused by factors such as;
    • Choice of career (what kind of roles do women chose to go into when compared to men.)
    • Choice of maternity (if X person decides to go on maternity, then her peers will pass her out and climb at a higher rate)
    • Life goal - how do life goals between each gender affect their desire to climb the corporate ladder?
    • Levels of risk - which gender is willing to take on a larger risk (health, financial etc)to achieve more pay?

    Obviously there are billions of people on the planet so it's utterly futile to try and fit them all into the above buckets. However, what I'm trying to point out is the absolute depth of questions which need to be looked at when analyzing something like this.

    Simply stating that 'men earn more than women' ignores a multitude of factors which add to the causation. So much so that I wince whenever I see it brought up via 'gender quotas' and the like.


  • #1846
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Wasnt the pay gap debunked as it ignores hours worked?


    link please.


  • #1847
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    marienbad wrote: »
    link please.

    You've not provided any links proving the existence of the paygap.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1848
    Piliger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Wasnt the pay gap debunked as it ignores hours worked?

    It ignores masses of FACTS.

    SkyNews Kay Burley is ranting on about it all this afternoon. Unfortunately no one has the balls to stand up and ask where all these women are that are being paid less than their equivalent male.

    Why ? Because the mostly don't even exist. The mythical 'pay gap' is a facet of statistics arising from women's choices and women having different priorities and interests in life.

    There is no pay gap.


  • #1849
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Piliger wrote: »
    There is no pay gap.

    I would have thought that most men wouldn't have jobs if women could be paid less.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1850
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    o1s1n wrote: »
    I would suggest you read up on 'correlation versus causation' and apply it to the issue of gender pay in the workforce.

    Basically what your argument says is this;
    • Overall, women's salaries are lower than mens.
    • Therefore there is a gender pay imbalance which must be addressed

    When in actual fact, it's more like this;
    • Overall, women's salaries as lower than men.
      This can be caused by factors such as;
    • Choice of career (what kind of roles do women chose to go into when compared to men.)
    • Choice of maternity (if X person decides to go on maternity, then her peers will pass her out and climb at a higher rate)
    • Life goal - how do life goals between each gender affect their desire to climb the corporate ladder?
    • Levels of risk - which gender is willing to take on a larger risk (health, financial etc)to achieve more pay?

    Obviously there are billions of people on the planet so it's utterly futile to try and fit them all into the above buckets. However, what I'm trying to point out is the absolute depth of questions which need to be looked at when analyzing something like this.

    Simply stating that 'men earn more than women' ignores a multitude of factors which add to the causation. So much so that I wince whenever I see it brought up via 'gender quotas' and the like.

    There are not my arguments , simply look it up on any reputable website .

    The gap is closing on wages , but on higher representation in the top jobs in the civil service , Dail , general business it is still along way to go.

    I was asked to point out how condition in the 70's are relevant today and I did so . Now you have a different set of questions !

    Does any deny that for most of this century women in Ireland were second class citizens ? The fact that things are improving enormously does not change that .

    Nor does it in any way minimise the terrible problems facing men today ( as I have already said) in family law, divorce , suicide etc . Why is it so adversarial in here ?

    It is interesting though that it took a woman in the job a wet week to state her intention to open up those courts to more public scrutiny , which is more than a succession of male ministers have signally failed to even comment on.

    With that I am out of here .


  • #1851
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    marienbad wrote: »
    There are not my arguments , simply look it up on any reputable website .

    Ie, one which agrees with you without any sort of data.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Advertisement
  • #1852
    Seriously?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭Seriously?


    marienbad wrote: »
    link please.
    http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

    Thats the US study thats been referenced as the source for quite a number of the debunking claims.


  • #1853
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    Piliger wrote: »
    Why ? Because the mostly don't even exist. The mythical 'pay gap' is a facet of statistics arising from women's choices and women having different priorities and interests in life.

    There is no pay gap.

    Even if the pay gap is entirely a function of women's choices and not discrimination, why do women make those choices though? You could argue that women in general are from a young age discouraged from going into high paying careers in science/engineering/finance by things like 'engineer barbie' , and general societal expectations which expect them to be caregivers even if they don't want to. In a similar way, men are discouraged from taking up professions like primary school teaching, which is also a bad thing.


  • #1854
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    You've not provided any links proving the existence of the paygap.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/equal-pay-day-highlights-gender-pay-gap-586375.html


  • #1855
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    marienbad wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/equal-pay-day-highlights-gender-pay-gap-586375.html
    We know women get paid less. The question is why.

    Saying people in group A should earn the same as people in group B is nonsensical if the behavior and approach to work of the two groups is different.


  • #1856
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Reputable website eh? OK how about National Women's council of Ireland's report about said paygap? The usual stats are trotted out, however if we look more deeply...

    The latest figures from the EU Commission show that the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 13.9% - in other words women in Ireland are paid almost 14% less than men. The Gender Pay Gap exists even though women do better at school and university than men.
    In the Irish context, what is perhaps most disturbing is the high cost of motherhood. Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.
    For the bottom 10% of earners, the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 4% but this rises to 24.6% for the top 10% of income earners, suggesting the continued presence of a glass ceiling and indirect discrimination.    Emphasis mine. Women with no kids get paid nearly 20% more than equivalent men. Funny how they don't directly mention that, and hide it as a minus. I wonder why? Makes sense too and as they note more women than men graduate second and third level and that gap is increasing.

    As I said earlier in the thread: The addition of children complicates things. Women who chose to have a child earlier in adulthood are more likely to forgo third level so job opportunities are going to be less. They're still seen and act as the primary carers so time constraints will impact a career at any stage, but especially at the start of a career.

    What I would like to see are the stats for say 30 to 35 year old women without children compared to men of of the same age range. I'll bet the farm the so called "paygap" and "glass ceiling" doesn't exist and indeed it seems goes the other way.

    As for the "paygap" at the top? Similar things going on. More women are going to dial back when they start a family, many in my experience all too willingly, so that will impact their final earning potential. Secondly men, or more men than women are risk takers, rasher and adrenaline junkies(scientifically provable) and that mindset is more likely to be entrepreneurial, more likely to start their own business, or drive harder within a career for longer. They're also more likely to be obsessive and singular(some have even suggested that the Autistic spectrum is the male brain in extremis). A better stat to look at would be to compare like with like, IE compare men entrepreneurs with women entrepreneurs. Again I'll bet the farm their earnings are about equal.

    Again we have the case of comparing "average women" with an "elite". However if one was to compare the "average man" with the same elite they would find themselves lower than the "average woman". At least 17% lower it seems.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1857
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,666 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    marienbad wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/equal-pay-day-highlights-gender-pay-gap-586375.html

    It doesn't state that men and women are getting paid different rates for the same work.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #1858
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,864 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    marienbad wrote: »
    There are not my arguments , simply look it up on any reputable website .

    'look it up on a website' is not an argument and is in fact, extremely condescending. Sorry but I'm not going to do your research for you.
    marienbad wrote: »
    The gap is closing on wages , but on higher representation in the top jobs in the civil service , Dail , general business it is still along way to go.

    You are assuming that the gap in wages, representation in top jobs is simply down to the gender of the people involved, rather than deeper rooted reasons. (such as what I mentioned)
    marienbad wrote: »
    I was asked to point out how condition in the 70's are relevant today and I did so . Now you have a different set of questions !

    Does any deny that for most of this century women in Ireland were second class citizens ? The fact that things are improving enormously does not change that .

    I didn't ask that originally, so you'll have to excuse me for pouncing :D

    I completely agree that women's situations have improved dramatically since the 70s, I don't however think we should dwell on the past or continue to use it as ammunition to berate people. We need to look to the future where everyone has the same opportunities and rights.


  • #1859
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    marienbad wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/equal-pay-day-highlights-gender-pay-gap-586375.html
    Using newer figures from the OECD figures.
    Women without children in Ireland out earn men by 17%.


  • #1860
    Seriously?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭Seriously?


    drumswan wrote: »
    We know women get paid less. The question is why.
    Thats not always the case, young unmarried childless professional women have been shown to earn more than their male counterparts in some recent studies.


  • Advertisement
  • #1861
    andrew
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    Seriously? wrote: »
    Thats not always the case, young unmarried childless professional women have been shown to earn more than their male counterparts in some recent studies.

    Link? I've never heard of a reputable study showing that women earn more than men, except maybe in some specific jobs like prostitution or porn or something.


Advertisement