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Mens Rights Thread

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Piliger wrote: »
    So be it.

    I find that attitude to be quite callous to be honest. There's no easy answer and I'm sure the misandrist feminists would say something similar regarding innocent men facing prison.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I find that attitude to be quite callous to be honest. There's no easy answer and I'm sure the misandrist feminists would say something similar regarding innocent men facing prison.

    Then they would be wrong too. Making false allegations of ANY crime should be as serious a crime as the crime itself.

    Supporting this female privilege to accuse any man they chose, any man they fall out with, any man that stole their girl friend, any man that jilter her, of an appalling crime that destroys his life even if he is found innocent, with impunity is the very antithesis of justice and fairness. It is an unacceptable form of elitism and of sexist privilege.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Piliger wrote: »
    Supporting this female privilege to accuse any man they chose, any man they fall out with, any man that stole their girl friend, any man that jilter her, of an appalling crime that destroys his life even if he is found innocent, with impunity is the very antithesis of justice and fairness. It is an unacceptable form of elitism and of sexist privilege.

    I know where you're coming from. I'm just saying that imprisoning false rape claimants would deter real victims from coming forward. I think the scenarios you're describing are abhorrent but if there's a clear cut solution then I don't see it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    I know where you're coming from. I'm just saying that imprisoning false rape claimants would deter real victims from coming forward. I think the scenarios you're describing are abhorrent but if there's a clear cut solution then I don't see it.

    Perverting the course of justice is a crime and always has been. People who break the law and try to ruin someone's life should be in jail.

    This nonsense about 'deter real victims' is exactly that - a totally nonsensical. sexist and prejudiced concept invented by modern feminists to protect their privilege.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Piliger wrote: »
    Perverting the course of justice is a crime and always has been. People who break the law and try to ruin someone's life should be in jail.

    I'm not disputing this. All I am saying is that rape is underreported as it is and victims have a hard enough time coming forward (http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/mythsampfacts2.php)
    Piliger wrote: »
    This nonsense about 'deter real victims' is exactly that - a totally nonsensical. sexist and prejudiced concept invented by modern feminists to protect their privilege.

    Proof?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I completely appreciate where you're coming from. The problem is being able to accurately and consistently differentiate the two.
    Yes but a false accusation convictions requires strong evidence to get a prosecution.
    To quote this CPS report
    It can be a significant challenge for the police and
    prosecution to obtain evidence that the original rape or
    domestic violence allegation was, in fact, false, given that the
    prosecution has to prove this to the criminal standard.

    The number of convictions for this are tiny when compared to the amount of rape trials.
    I'm just saying that imprisoning false rape claimants would deter real victims from coming forward.
    Have there been any studies done to prove this?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Have there been any studies done to prove this?

    How would you do such a study? Feedback from victims would form the basis for this assertion.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    How would you do such a study? Feedback from victims would form the basis for this assertion.
    I've seen this claim made by several posters and I was wondering is there a source for it?
    Because I've had no luck finding anything on the subject myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,406 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    I know where you're coming from. I'm just saying that imprisoning false rape claimants would deter real victims from coming forward. I think the scenarios you're describing are abhorrent but if there's a clear cut solution then I don't see it.

    So what exactly are you saying, that women who make false rape claims should not be sent to prison?

    I assume you realise that a man could get his head kicked in based on a false accusation of rape, maybe end up in a coma or dead.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I've seen this claim made by several posters and I was wondering is there a source for it?
    Because I've had no luck finding anything on the subject myself.

    I posted a link from rapecrisis.org.uk.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I posted a link from rapecrisis.org.uk.
    And where on that page backs up the claim that "imprisoning false rape claimants would deter real victims from coming forward"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    CPS Report: "It can be a significant challenge for the police and
    prosecution to obtain evidence that the original rape or
    domestic violence allegation was, in fact, false, given that the
    prosecution has to prove this to the criminal standard."

    The appalling piece of hypocrisy is that the standard for proving a false allegation is now MUCH higher than proving a rape.

    Men are regularly found guilty on the basis of claims with no evidence, and the British courts have now allowed guilty verdicts based on what they call "a credible narrative'. in other words if you can tell a good and persuasive story ... you win.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    So what exactly are you saying, that women who make false rape claims should not be sent to prison?

    I assume you realise that a man could get his head kicked in based on a false accusation of rape, maybe end up in a coma or dead.

    Pretty sure a fella in Cork or Kerry got killed over what turned out to be a false accusation of rape.

    Edit: Yep, a 17 year old called Stephen Lyne. http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/teen-jailed-for-conspiracy-to-assault-stephen-lyne-27418464.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    So what exactly are you saying, that women who make false rape claims should not be sent to prison?

    I assume you realise that a man could get his head kicked in based on a false accusation of rape, maybe end up in a coma or dead.

    why not tackle this behavior instead of making things harder on victims


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    So what exactly are you saying, that women who make false rape claims should not be sent to prison?

    Morally? Yes, absolutely. However, it's not that simple as I've stated above. At the very least, the accused should have their identity protected though I don't know how feasible that would be in this day and age.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Morally? Yes, absolutely. However, it's not that simple as I've stated above.

    I'm sorry, but what? Someone who has cast what is considered to be one of society's greatest taboos in a simple attempt to destroy someone else has some sort of moral highground and should not go to prison?

    GTFO.

    Here's a pop quiz. If there is no comeback on breaking any given law, what's the net effect? The answer makes the whole matter really that simple. Cut through the emotive crap, and look at the matter in black and white.

    Lets step back inside the emotive bubble you all seem so fond of wrapping around the issue. There is much discussion about the trauma of real rape victims. And that's a very valid and real issue. And how they may be afraid to come forward and report rape. Well, turn that on its head and ask what it must be like to the victim of a rape allegation; to suddenly find yourself facing a serious custodial sentence, facing extreme violence and death from the hands of other inmates, and the stigma of having everyone and everything you've ever known in society turn against you. For no other reason that someone else is a f*cking scumbag sociopathic liar. How on God's green earth must that feel?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Lemming wrote: »
    Here's a pop quiz. If there is no comeback on breaking any given law, what's the net effect? The answer makes the whole matter really that simple. Cut through the emotive crap, and look at the matter in black and white.

    Hardly that simple. It's not as simple as someone just claiming to be a victim and it gets to court. Evidence has to be produced. Surely if a man is falsely accused, he can sue for defamation of character and/or slander, no?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Hardly that simple. It's not as simple as someone just claiming to be a victim and it gets to court. Evidence has to be produced. Surely if a man is falsely accused, he can sue for defamation of character and/or slander, no?

    It is not a civil matter if the accusation sticks. So why should a false accuation be treated like a civil matter. This is serious crime here, not "I know he steals bottles of milk from the local supermarket" stuff. People should not be treating this stuff like it's their own personal plaything to get one over on someone else.

    Also good of you to completely ignore the issue turned on its head for victims of rape allegation. Bravo. Well done. Go you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    And you never answered the question.

    If there is no comeback on breaking a law, what is the net effect?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,262 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    PucaMama wrote: »
    why not tackle this behavior instead of making things harder on victims
    By victims are you referring to people who make false rape accusations?
    Morally? Yes, absolutely. However, it's not that simple as I've stated above.
    The only reason that you given in your previous posts, is the yet to be substantiated claim that convicting people who make false rape allegations will lead to less rape victims coming forward.
    Hardly that simple. It's not as simple as someone just claiming to be a victim and it gets to court. Evidence has to be produced.
    Given the usually lack of non-witness evidence in rape trials, someone claiming that they were raped is sometimes enough to bring it to court.
    Surely if a man is falsely accused, he can sue for defamation of character and/or slander, no?
    Very few men would have the resources to fund a defamation suit.
    And that's before you even take into account the ability of the victim to pay damages, and in these cases that would usually be non-existent.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,454 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Lemming wrote: »
    Also good of you to completely ignore the issue turned on its head for victims of rape allegation. Bravo. Well done. Go you.

    Mod note - Keep it civil lads. attack the post, not the poster


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Mod note - Keep it civil lads. attack the post, not the poster

    Sorry Pawwed Rig, but I've had enough of this yeah but no but yeahbutnobutyeahbut, etc. guff that keeps getting spouted, the absolute one-way street double-standards and chillingly cold lack of empathy on display for victims.

    After all, they must have been asking for it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    PucaMama wrote: »
    why not tackle this behavior instead of making things harder on victims
    Tut, Tut, Tut.
    You show your prejudice clearly. The victim is the innocent person laying in the gutters with a broken skull.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Lemming wrote: »
    And you never answered the question.

    If there is no comeback on breaking a law, what is the net effect?

    So why do we not have false accusations coming out of the woodwork then? It's because they're extremely rare. It'd take a rare combination of intelligence and psychopathy to concoct a claim and accompanying false evidence to get to court.
    By victims are you referring to people who make false rape accusations?
    The only reason that you given in your previous posts, is the yet to be substantiated claim that convicting people who make false rape allegations will lead to less rape victims coming forward.
    Given the usually lack of non-witness evidence in rape trials, someone claiming that they were raped is sometimes enough to bring it to court.
    Very few men would have the resources to fund a defamation suit.
    And that's before you even take into account the ability of the victim to pay damages, and in these cases that would usually be non-existent.

    I am referring to rape victims who do not come forward as they fear they won't be believed. A claim alone is enough to bring a case to court? Source?

    Of course false claimants should face prison but not if it'd deter rape victims from coming forward who constitute a much greater majority.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    So why do we not have false accusations coming out of the woodwork then? It's because they're extremely rare. It'd take a rare combination of intelligence and psychopathy to concoct a claim and accompanying false evidence to get to court.

    And again; if there is no comeback against any given crime, what is the net effect?

    I am referring to rape victims who do not come forward as they fear they won't be believed. A claim alone is enough to bring a case to court? Source?

    Of course false claimants should face prison but not if it'd deter rape victims from coming forward who constitute a much greater majority.

    Ah, tyranny of the majority. Was wondering whedn that'd rear its head. it's not like a woman on the council/whatever-senior-position of a major US university commented on the new "california rape law" debacle that if some innocent male students get falsely accused and destroyed then "so be it" (or words to that effect). After all, majority, etc. etc. etc.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 42,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Lemming wrote: »
    And again; if there is no comeback against any given crime, what is the net effect?

    Who said anything about any given crime. Currently, there are very few false claims. Obviously, that isn't ideal but it's hardly as bad as you're making it out to be.
    Lemming wrote: »
    Ah, tyranny of the majority. Was wondering whedn that'd rear its head. it's not like a woman on the council/whatever-senior-position of a major US university commented on the new "california rape law" debacle that if some innocent male students get falsely accused and destroyed then "so be it" (or words to that effect). After all, majority, etc. etc. etc.

    Tyranny? What are you on about?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Who said anything about any given crime. Currently, there are very few false claims.
    Very few relative to what? (and seeing as you are so fond of asking for it - source?)
    Obviously, that isn't ideal but it's hardly as bad as you're making it out to be.
    Don't be so dismissive. If something it blatantly wrong or unjust, don't expect citizens to ignore it. As a society we should work to correct it - not dismiss it because it doesn't suit our agenda.
    Tyranny? What are you on about?
    Sigh, don't be so obtuse. Tyranny of the majority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Who said anything about any given crime.

    You did when you said that women should not be prosecuted for making malicious rape claims.
    Currently, there are very few false claims. Obviously, that isn't ideal but it's hardly as bad as you're making it out to be.

    Once again, your lack of empathy for people falsely accused is staggeringly cold. Further, your constant yeahbutnobutyeahbutno on the matter is nauseating in its hypocrasy. Let me spell it out for you as you are being so willfully evasive as to be dishonest about the whole matter:

    Rape should not be tolerated. Period. By extension, malicious accusations of rape should not be tolerated. Period. It is a deeply emotive subject that brings out the very worst in people when a finger is pointed. The fact that you cannot - or will not - admit to recognising the effect of that on an innocent party is just disturbing.

    Edit: since I'm spelling out the obvious to you. The simple answer to the very simple question taht I asked you but you keep evading is this: if there is no comeback on a crime, then people will continue to do it because they know that they can get away with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭FactCheck


    Zulu wrote: »
    Sigh, don't be so obtuse. Tyranny of the majority.

    But what ancapailldorcha is describing isn't tyranny of the majority?

    Tyranny of the majority is when 99 people vote for a policy that will help them but hurt one person.

    Ancapailldorcha is describing two conflicting policies, one which helps 99 people but hurts one, and one which hurts 99 people and helps one.

    Deciding that it's better to go for the policy that helps far more people is not "tyranny of the majority", it's good social policy.

    Now you may disagree that 99 people are actually hurt by the second policy, that's fine, that's grand. But it isn't "tyranny of the majority", and it's misleading and confusing to describe it as so.

    "Tyranny of the majority" is a very specific fallacy, it isn't a catch-all to describe any policy that mentions the word "majority".


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PucaMama


    Zulu wrote: »
    Tut, Tut, Tut.
    You show your prejudice clearly. The victim is the innocent person laying in the gutters with a broken skull.

    em, if people were not so violent it wouldnt happen in the first place


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