Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

GreeBo · 02-12-2014 09:27AM

blackwhite wrote: »

FYP! :P

Agree with the point though - it's not up to an individual golfer to decide the sanctions for when/if you believe a competitor to be cheating in this way - it needs to be reported to the committee and let them decide whether or not to accept the score.

Well golf doesnt have referees, each player is "kinda" a referee so.....sorta.

Russman · 02-12-2014 09:50AM

blackwhite wrote: »

FYP! :P

Agree with the point though - it's not up to an individual golfer to decide the sanctions for when/if you believe a competitor to be cheating in this way - it needs to be reported to the committee and let them decide whether or not to accept the score.

Absolutely, its not up to a player to decide, sure that would lead to anarchy.

All messing aside though, while intentionally dropping shots would be morally wrong, I'd be curious to know under what rule the committee could actually refuse to accept a score, assuming the number of strokes taken is correct ? Or even what rule the player would be breaking ? I know the CONGU UHS mentions that it is assumed that all players try their best or words to that effect, but is there a rule of golf being broken ? (genuinely asking)

As far as I can see its just one of those things that could never in a million
years be proven, even if it is obvious and known.
Committee: "you sliced a 5 iron out of bounds intentionally on the 15th"
Player: "no I didn't, I was trying to hit the green"
Committee: "you were reported as hitting the ball well all day"
Player: "yeah, well, who hasn't hit a bad shot when going well, I'm a 14 handicapper, not a pro ?"
Committee "eh well, eh, eh.......you missed a short putt on the 17th"
Player: "so did half the field, everyone misses short putts, especially a downhill 4 footer like that one, my playing partner missed a short one on the 3rd, I don't see him in here"
Committee: "Hmmm......"
Player "wait a minute, are you accusing me of something ?"

See where this is going............

blackwhite · 02-12-2014 10:47AM

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely, its not up to a player to decide, sure that would lead to anarchy.

All messing aside though, while intentionally dropping shots would be morally wrong, I'd be curious to know under what rule the committee could actually refuse to accept a score, assuming the number of strokes taken is correct ? Or even what rule the player would be breaking ? I know the CONGU UHS mentions that it is assumed that all players try their best or words to that effect, but is there a rule of golf being broken ? (genuinely asking)

As far as I can see its just one of those things that could never in a million
years be proven, even if it is obvious and known.
Committee: "you sliced a 5 iron out of bounds intentionally on the 15th"
Player: "no I didn't, I was trying to hit the green"
Committee: "you were reported as hitting the ball well all day"
Player: "yeah, well, who hasn't hit a bad shot when going well, I'm a 14 handicapper, not a pro ?"
Committee "eh well, eh, eh.......you missed a short putt on the 17th"
Player: "so did half the field, everyone misses short putts, especially a downhill 4 footer like that one, my playing partner missed a short one on the 3rd, I don't see him in here"
Committee: "Hmmm......"
Player "wait a minute, are you accusing me of something ?"

See where this is going............

TBH - I agree with pretty much all of that. I'm not sure what a committee could do with an isolated complaint, without potentially exposing themselves to legal action.

However, if there's a number of complaints noted about a particular golfer, then a general play reduction could be considered. It's not a direct action against the perceived "cheating", but as recent court cases have shown it would most likely stand up to challenge.

GreeBo · 02-12-2014 06:53PM

blackwhite wrote: »

TBH - I agree with pretty much all of that. I'm not sure what a committee could do with an isolated complaint, without potentially exposing themselves to legal action.

However, if there's a number of complaints noted about a particular golfer, then a general play reduction could be considered. It's not a direct action against the perceived "cheating", but as recent court cases have shown it would most likely stand up to challenge.

I dont think you can do anything under the rules of golf or handicap related.
What you could do would be remove them from your club, I'm sure thats covered under the constitution of most clubs, have a vote, if enough people believe that member to be a problem then goodbye.

FixdePitchmark · 02-12-2014 10:08PM

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely, its not up to a player to decide, sure that would lead to anarchy.

All messing aside though, while intentionally dropping shots would be morally wrong, I'd be curious to know under what rule the committee could actually refuse to accept a score, assuming the number of strokes taken is correct ? Or even what rule the player would be breaking ? I know the CONGU UHS mentions that it is assumed that all players try their best or words to that effect, but is there a rule of golf being broken ? (genuinely asking)

As far as I can see its just one of those things that could never in a million
years be proven, even if it is obvious and known.
Committee: "you sliced a 5 iron out of bounds intentionally on the 15th"
Player: "no I didn't, I was trying to hit the green"
Committee: "you were reported as hitting the ball well all day"
Player: "yeah, well, who hasn't hit a bad shot when going well, I'm a 14 handicapper, not a pro ?"
Committee "eh well, eh, eh.......you missed a short putt on the 17th"
Player: "so did half the field, everyone misses short putts, especially a downhill 4 footer like that one, my playing partner missed a short one on the 3rd, I don't see him in here"
Committee: "Hmmm......"
Player "wait a minute, are you accusing me of something ?"

See where this is going............

Committee - why did you pick up your ball on 18 ?

Love to see player answer that.

Russman · 03-12-2014 09:45AM

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Committee - why did you pick up your ball on 18 ?

Love to see player answer that.

Fair point, but he doesn't have to give an answer to that particular question. He picked up his ball, and penalised himself for doing so. All within the rules. Case closed. Committees aren't all powerful kangaroo courts that can ask what they want and make rulings they feel like.

Assuming he has no scruples at all, if he's deliberately pulling, all he'd have to say was anything like "I was frustrated with how I blew up on the last few holes" (the irony

)

Even if he just said "because I wanted to", there's absolutely nothing they can do. All they could say was he broke a rule by picking up his ball and should be penalised - and he'll respond with, "I did penalise myself, look, I had no score on the hole".

Marking him down for a future general play revision is about as far as it can go. Or if his reputation gets around he might find it hard to get playing partners, but that's never going to happen in reality.

The problem is the system is designed on the assumption that everyone is trying their best all the time. People who are pulling, want those extra shots, so the traditional deterrent of penalty shots is almost welcome.
The nature of golf, being so difficult and so hard to play, means that bad shots can happen when you're trying or not trying and its impossible to prove whether someone is trying or not.

Rulemakers will never try to improve someone's score as a penalty, and the question of intent is impossible to prove, its just one of those unfortunate sides to human nature that can't be legislated for IMO. Thankfully those that pull are a tiny minority.

slingerz · 05-07-2015 10:12PM

Just on this I heard at Junior Cup today that the setup for next year was going to be along the lines that you would only 0.1 back a month which is along the lines of what they do in England & Scotland apparently?

0.1 a month is a good deterrent to those handicap building however is a tad harsh on those genuinely not capable of playing to their handicap. I suppose the handicap secretary can just review their handicap at year end against performance and adjust is necessary

I'd be all for this anyway as people can get a enough 0.1 back in a week to move them up a shot

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2015 10:32PM

slingerz wrote: »

Just on this I heard at Junior Cup today that the setup for next year was going to be along the lines that you would only 0.1 back a month which is along the lines of what they do in England & Scotland apparently?

0.1 a month is a good deterrent to those handicap building however is a tad harsh on those genuinely not capable of playing to their handicap. I suppose the handicap secretary can just review their handicap at year end against performance and adjust is necessary

I'd be all for this anyway as people can get a enough 0.1 back in a week to move them up a shot

In practice, for many, this would mean that you could not get a shot back in a full Irish year's golf even if playing rubbish all the time. Until the EOR. Seems harsh alright, and moves it even further away from the other handicap systems of faster reaction to recent rounds.

slave1 · 05-07-2015 10:36PM

Is this one 0.1 back a month or 0.1 extra on your handicap eg three 0.1's and a 0.2 reduction?

redzerdrog · 05-07-2015 10:37PM

slingerz wrote: »

Just on this I heard at Junior Cup today that the setup for next year was going to be along the lines that you would only 0.1 back a month which is along the lines of what they do in England & Scotland apparently?

0.1 a month is a good deterrent to those handicap building however is a tad harsh on those genuinely not capable of playing to their handicap. I suppose the handicap secretary can just review their handicap at year end against performance and adjust is necessary

I'd be all for this anyway as people can get a enough 0.1 back in a week to move them up a shot

That would be absolutely ridiculous

slingerz · 06-07-2015 07:01AM

All I know is that's what I heard at junior cup today anyway something along those lines.

Russman · 06-07-2015 07:04AM

redzerdrog wrote: »

That would be absolutely ridiculous

Absolutely.
What ever happened to handicap being current ? Mad idea altogether.

Ollieboy · 06-07-2015 08:07AM

that just doesn't sound correct.

I'm guessing they meant you won't get you're point .1's back till the end of the each month? Which was the old way of doing it. So you will still get as a example .3 back, but it won't be active till the following month.

Norfolk Enchants_ · 06-07-2015 08:16AM

slingerz wrote: »

Just on this I heard at Junior Cup today that the setup for next year was going to be along the lines that you would only 0.1 back a month which is along the lines of what they do in England & Scotland apparently?

0.1 a month is a good deterrent to those handicap building however is a tad harsh on those genuinely not capable of playing to their handicap. I suppose the handicap secretary can just review their handicap at year end against performance and adjust is necessary

I'd be all for this anyway as people can get a enough 0.1 back in a week to move them up a shot

Oh well if you heard it at the Junior cup, it must be true, nevermind the fact what you heard couldn't be any more vague.

slingerz · 06-07-2015 09:55AM

Ollieboy wrote: »

that just doesn't sound correct.

I'm guessing they meant you won't get you're point .1's back till the end of the each month? Which was the old way of doing it. So you will still get as a example .3 back, but it won't be active till the following month.

You could be quite correct with this, would it be similar to how it works in England/Scotland at present?

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Oh well if you heard it at the Junior cup, it must be true, nevermind the fact what you heard couldn't be any more vague.

Super contribution to the discussion there

Norfolk Enchants_ · 06-07-2015 11:04AM

slingerz wrote: »

Super contribution to the discussion there

Is that what you're calling it? based on what, partial, second hand, overheard information, you run with that if you like, but no thanks not for me, I prefer to deal in sensible discussions based on facts.

slingerz · 06-07-2015 11:08AM

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

Is that what you're calling it? based on what, partial, second hand, overheard information, you run with that if you like, but no thanks not for me, I prefer to deal in sensible discussions based on facts.

feel free to not partake then

Keano · 06-07-2015 11:11AM

Leave the modding to us please.

Rikand · 06-07-2015 11:17AM

Norfolk Enchants_ wrote: »

I prefer to deal in sensible discussions based on facts.

Ha!

Berty44 · 06-07-2015 11:48AM

I heard that what was being considered was that a players handicap cannot go up during the year, only at year end, however you can still be cut. So your handicap at the start of the year is what you play off for the full calendar year ( unless as I said you get cut during the year ).

The 0.1s you get are not added to your handicap until year end. Not a perfect solution but it seems a better solution to stop handicap building.

ForeRight · 06-07-2015 11:51AM

Rikand wrote: »

Ha!

Great Banter by Norfolk

Norfolk Enchants_ · 06-07-2015 01:11PM

Berty44 wrote: »

I heard that what was being considered was that a players handicap cannot go up during the year, only at year end, however you can still be cut. So your handicap at the start of the year is what you play off for the full calendar year ( unless as I said you get cut during the year ).

The 0.1s you get are not added to your handicap until year end. Not a perfect solution but it seems a better solution to stop handicap building.

I heard that too, plus if you're married you don't just get .1 back when you miss the buffer, you'll actually now get .2 and that'll be applied retrospectively to when you first got married, and multiplied for each time you've been married, e.g. on your third marriage you'll get .2 x3, so .6 for everytime you miss the buffer although the GUI are thinking about building a clause where by if you are proven to have a bit on the side, those .2's are reduced to .1's, although not applied retrospectively, so not all bad news.
Also on the plus side handicap cuts will be reduced by half for the unfortuate married amongst us and further reduced by half again for every subsequent marriage, although be careful because again if a bit on the side is proven those benefits are retrospectively withdrawn and in cases where it's more than one occurence has been proven there is an added penalty of 50% per occurrence.
Alot to digest I know, but it should make for a cracking discussion, facts withstanding of course.

Keano · 06-07-2015 01:14PM

Enough is enough.

Cards and bans will be next.

Uncle Ben · 06-07-2015 02:28PM

Berty44 wrote: »

I heard that what was being considered was that a players handicap cannot go up during the year, only at year end, however you can still be cut. So your handicap at the start of the year is what you play off for the full calendar year ( unless as I said you get cut during the year ).

The 0.1s you get are not added to your handicap until year end. Not a perfect solution but it seems a better solution to stop handicap building.

How would this work if you were playing an inter club or inter provincial competition and the h/capping criteria was for: current official handicap on the day.

Berty44 · 06-07-2015 02:59PM

Many interclub competitions already work off your lowest handicap from the previous year, regardless of your current handicap.

As for those competitions that work off your handicap of the day, your handicap "of the day" would be the same as what it was at the start of the year less any cuts that you would have incurred since the start of the year so easily workable.

Uncle Ben · 06-07-2015 04:01PM

Berty44 wrote: »

Many interclub competitions already work off your lowest handicap from the previous year, regardless of your current handicap.

As for those competitions that work off your handicap of the day, your handicap "of the day" would be the same as what it was at the start of the year less any cuts that you would have incurred since the start of the year so easily workable.

Just wondering. You start the year at 8.4 for example, play a couple of open days and don't feature, so realistically you should be up to 8.6 (9), however you now enter a qualifying comp and you're still playing off 8.4. Wait until December for your shots back!
This amateur game of golf must be riddled with cheats.

Russman · 06-07-2015 04:16PM

Uncle Ben wrote: »

This amateur game of golf must be riddled with cheats.

It's not, there are a few for sure, like in any sport, but the idea that every second amateur is a handicap cheat or bandit is just ridiculous IMHO.
Most of the whining comes from guys who either lost to a guy who played well or who never in million years play to their own handicap.

Berty44 · 07-07-2015 08:00AM

There are always a few. I am sure we all know of guys who build up their handicap in spring and early summer, grabbing their 0.1s , make sure they only feature in team events, and then lo and behold the Captains Prize comes along and they shoot the lights out. They are very much in the minority but they do exist.

Russman · 07-07-2015 08:50AM

Berty44 wrote: »

There are always a few. I am sure we all know of guys who build up their handicap in spring and early summer, grabbing their 0.1s , make sure they only feature in team events, and then lo and behold the Captains Prize comes along and they shoot the lights out. They are very much in the minority but they do exist.

Totally agree, very much in the minority. There's a few bad eggs in every sport and no amount of rule tweaking will change that. I'd say there's maybe 2 or 3 in any club (with a few honourable exceptions in the PP

:D).

To be honest I think the golfer described above, not only is in the minority, but is almost an urban myth and a product of gossip/bar talk where someone saw someone play well one day and queried "How can Joe be off 15, sure he had 38pts last week playing with me ?", without considering that handicap golfers are inconsistent and their scores fluctuate wildly or mentioning Joe's previous 6 rounds where he had 28pts.

If 0.1s were limited to one per month, I can't see it doing anything only moving the "problem" to a higher handicap range as any real bandits won't bother getting cut in the first place, and guys who are genuinely playing badly won't have it reflected in their handicap.

Plus there's the potential impact on competition income. Will someone who is playing poorly and got 0.1 on the first day of the month continue to enter competitions knowing he's playing badly and his handicap won't be adjusted ? Some will, some won't I'd say.

thoscon · 07-07-2015 09:36AM

I attended a GUI meeting in newlands where they outlined their 5 year plan and bringing in a motion that you only get your 0.1s back at the end of the year was discussed
It was to stop a lad who gets cut and goes to play a few opens in a short space of time to get his 0.1s back.
What was discussed was that at the end of the year you might not get all the 0.1s back that you are due it depends on how you played with the handicap you are on
It might not come to fruition

Two interesting motions at the GUI AGM

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