Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

Idbatterim · 20-11-2014 04:59PM

the social welfare spend is 20,000,000,000 a year, let a private company come in specifically to deal with welfare fraud and give them a % of the savings...

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 05:00PM

RoboRat wrote: »

I have no problem with somebody who is on the dole and they do an occasional unplanned nixer.

I do have an issue with people who are working regularly and claiming the dole.

I also have a major issue with people who cream the system eg the single parents who live with partners and claim every expense or those on injury benefit that shouldn't be. Some people will say its the governments fault for allowing it to happen but that's no different than blaming a shop owner for not having adequate security to stop shoplifting. Welfare is there to safeguard the most vulnerable and its certainly not a lifestyle choice.

Quantify an occasional nixer.

Tordelback · 20-11-2014 05:03PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

TV and Radio is covered by the TV License, which we all pay for.

My waffly point wasn't that you got stuff you didn't pay for, it was that all these things - TV Licence included - are things that we do pay into, as individuals, and get back, as a society. The point of general taxation (and spurious add-ons like TV Licence and Motor Tax) are that the revenue can be used to provide everyone with the services they want, but which they couldn't conceivably afford on their own. We all be poorer without the supports and amenities that a funded society can provide. Social Welfare is a part of this, but so are roads, herd immunity, electricity network etc. Singling out Jobseekers and saying 'I never got a penny for all I paid in' just isn't right.

'Course I'd much rather I wasn't paying for Bertie's pension, a drug dealer's rent and some finance gambler's place in the Maldives, but it's not ALL that stuff. Fixing how revenue is gathered and how it is distributed is the issue, not the concept itself.

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 05:09PM

If memory serves me correct Cowens government wanted to introduce PPS number /revenue checks at Garda checkpoints to combat fraud but was shot down by the argument of civil rights being infringed

Beaner1 · 20-11-2014 05:12PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If memory serves me correct Cowens government wanted to introduce PPS number /revenue checks at Garda checkpoints to combat fraud but was shot down by the argument of civil rights being infringed

The already do this with work vans.

Tordelback · 20-11-2014 05:15PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If memory serves me correct Cowens government wanted to introduce PPS number /revenue checks at Garda checkpoints to combat fraud but was shot down by the argument of civil rights being infringed

Also, it would be completely impractical. Can you imagine how the Gardaí would efficiently establish that a randomly stopped person shown to be in receipt of social welfare wasn't traveling to an interview, getting a lift, making a speculative visit to a prospective place of employment, off to fix his Mam's leaky roof or paint her kitchen, going to a funeral, off to dig an allotment etc. etc. What would the charge be? Driving a white van while in receipt of benefits?

Wompa1 · 20-11-2014 05:18PM

Tordelback wrote: »

My waffly point wasn't that you got stuff you didn't pay for, it was that all these things - TV Licence included - are things that we do pay into, as individuals, and get back, as a society. The point of general taxation (and spurious add-ons like TV Licence and Motor Tax) are that the revenue can be used to provide everyone with the services they want, but which they couldn't conceivably afford on their own. We all be poorer without the supports and amenities that a funded society can provide. Social Welfare is a part of this, but so are roads, herd immunity, electricity network etc. Singling out Jobseekers and saying 'I never got a penny for all I paid in' just isn't right.

'Course I'd much rather I wasn't paying for Bertie's pension, a drug dealer's rent and some finance gambler's place in the Maldives, but it's not ALL that stuff. Fixing how revenue is gathered and how it is distributed is the issue, not the concept itself.

But this is in the context of should people be allowed to break the law and screw the system. The loose claim by the other lad that lead to my reply was what's your scam so....as in you must be scamming the system in some way and that's why you should leave the others scamming alone. I don't accept that and it's worrying to think that others would.

So your point doesn't persuade me to accept that people should be allowed to bend the rules to suit themselves. The answer to the corrupt bankers and politicians. Isn't more corruption. We need to stand up for ourselves and get these f*ckers sorted out. Every single one of them. Including the dole cheats.

Unfortunately, maybe the social welfare has made us a bit soft. People are willing to look the other way and not raise their heads if it's at risk to themselves down the line.

Frankly, I think Ireland hasn't seen the worst of it yet. There's no way we can possibly sustain the way things are. That hole we're digging is getting deeper.

Littlekittylou · 20-11-2014 06:20PM

The Gardaí are the ones who work as social welfare inspectors.

'The new powers are being granted under the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill, which went before Cabinet today and which will be discussed by the Oireachtas in the coming weeks.

Although the actual level of welfare fraud is believed to be tiny, the Department carried out more than one million reviews of receipients last year in a bid to find any people abusing the system. The vast majority of recipients were found to be claiming the correct amount.'

Firstly when you report someone. They don't just prosecute straight away. There is an investigation.

It's possible to make an assumption or a mistake. People on SW or If you are getting certain disability payments you may be allowed to do work or training that is considered rehabilitative or therapeutic. People getting Illness Benefit and Invalidity Benefit cannot work (except for unpaid voluntary work). The Partial Capacity Scheme also allows people to work somewhat.If the person is on Jobseekers they are allowed to work three days.

When you report someone they will be put under SUI surveillance and bank accounts will be looked into etc. They will look into shopping and spending habits. They will be targeted for SIU surveillance. And if found guilty will be prosecuted and jailed appropriately.

What I am saying is. If you commit fraud you will be facing jail. But they are not going to simply take a report from someone who is anonymous and throw the book at a person who is innocent it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what is going on is happening.

They will have paper proof. Bank account records are checked and credit card checks made to prove if people are earning money while claiming sickness benefits.Investigators have also been able to access a person’s Sky TV bills. They will be asked to provide regular bank statements. Their property can be searched for unexplained cash.

The person will receive random visits. There will be in depth interviewing even under caution.

As far as I know continuing to draw the dole after gaining employment is far hard to do than it used to be.Apparently the Revenue Commission are working more closely with the Social Welfare.I have heard of some people been caught from 8 years previously.

They will investigate and make the person account for any cash in their property.If it is cash in hand then it's also tax evasion. You risk losing your employment rights and some benefits if you accept cash in hand payments, and may have to pay the tax and National Insurance contributions yourself.

Firstly you need to know what benefit the person is claiming to know it's absolutely not possible they could be allowed to work a certain amount of hrs. Secondly you would need to be pretty certain that they are actually receiving payment from work that is undeclared while on the dole.

Most reports are frivolous and most people are found to be being paid the correct amounts.

An innocent person would not have anything to worry about.

I have never committed fraud I think it would plague my conscience and work my anxiety levels up to ninety.

A claim is not suspended lightly. People are not brought to court or face sentencing lightly. They will seek hard evidence. But if there are illegitimate amounts of money around they will find it. If the claimant has to go to court they do get a lawyer.

I don't know whether or not I would report it. Firstly I have no idea how I would even know for sure.

An innocent person would have nothing to worry about though. It has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what is going on is happening.

Fraud So ain't worth it. They would have a criminal record for life. They would not be able to take a job in a bank or in accountancy.
Whether I would report it myself? No Probably not. I don't know for sure.

There are a lot of things I probably would not report.

Tordelback · 20-11-2014 06:35PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

So your point doesn't persuade me to accept that people should be allowed to bend the rules to suit themselves.

Nor should it, but there is a widespread perception that only beneficiaries of taxation are politicians, public servants and dole recipients, and the more corrupt and/or feckless they are better they do. All I'm saying is that we all benefit, that the redistribution of tax revenue is a good thing, that we achieve things as a society that we can't as individuals because of it. Making sure that redistribution is done fairly and efficiently is the key thing - and the dole cheats of the thread title are a small part of that, but a part nonetheless.

And I'd agree with your last point, we aren't even close to being out of the woods.

Littlekittylou · 20-11-2014 06:52PM

I once worked in a hairdresser and as a waitress people often assumed that the tips we made were cash in hand but actually no they weren't. We had to declare them. I remember being sore about that. Maybe I should not have been but it really annoyed me.

But I would say it's a fair thing to assume not everyone has declared everything tax wise. It tends to matter how close the person is to you whether you might take offense to this. I don't know why.

I would never ever dop in a friend. Yet I would consider myself an honest person. I know that seems a contradiction.
Generally I don't like to consider myself a snitch. I keep my own counsel. I am not a nosey person. I have no interest in other people's affairs and I respect peoples privacy. I generally don't find out much that way.

I keep my own nose clean but I have no interest in other people's business.

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 06:54PM

50 percent of social welfare payments made up of Vouchers for fruit ,vegetables ,milk etc rather than full monetary payments could also be worked into the system.
Are people scamming to have some pints at the weekend and fags or just to survive?
How bad is the payment with all the benefits compared to Germany or France?

duckcfc · 20-11-2014 06:56PM

Sclosages wrote: »

I did - don't know what the outcome was. Typical set-up that gives single parents a bad name

Her: Working 19 hours a week in Tescos - getting wages from that - at a conservative estimate €190 per week (tax free allowance for two childer and herself would mean she wouldn't pay tax)
Her: Claiming single parents for 2 kiddos - 250 per week (minus the 19 hours - maybe 100 per week Lone Parents?)
Her: Council house - paying 35 per week rent
Her: Children's allowance for the pair of future delinquents - 270 per month, so another 60 odd per week
Him: Claiming dole from his parents address, living with her. 186 per week

They were fairly creaming it alright. €600 a week income, rent €35 per week. Lovely hurlin!

Who is doing the fraud thou, is it him or her. In legal terms who is the one who'd end up in court? I can't see it being both them TBH

Bubbaclaus · 20-11-2014 06:58PM

I'd gladly snitch on a dole cheat. They are cheating the rest of us out of money. Scum

Tordelback · 20-11-2014 07:07PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

50 percent of social welfare payments made up of Vouchers for fruit ,vegetables ,milk etc rather than full monetary payments could also be worked into the system.

That would surely increase dole fraud rather than reduce it - if you get only your basics covered by voucher, you'd practically have to do something dodgy to get cash for booze and clothes, or more charitably for your kids' birthdays, repair/replace of electrical goods etc. Looking to the US's welfare system for guidance is probably the worst thing you could do - it's appalling.

DarkyHughes · 20-11-2014 07:40PM

No, I'd ask him what his trick is. I got let go 2 years get 188 a week & a few weeks ago I had a horrible toothache, I couldn't afford the 50 euro to go to the dentist & had to wait till the tooth fell out itself, agony it was.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 20-11-2014 07:43PM

What happens to them if they are caught?

Is there a fine imposed on top of the money they've scammed?
Jail time for non repayment?
Are they entitled to claim the full amount again in the future if they should so need it?

Wompa1 · 20-11-2014 07:55PM

Tordelback wrote: »

Nor should it, but there is a widespread perception that only beneficiaries of taxation are politicians, public servants and dole recipients, and the more corrupt and/or feckless they are better they do. All I'm saying is that we all benefit, that the redistribution of tax revenue is a good thing, that we achieve things as a society that we can't as individuals because of it. Making sure that redistribution is done fairly and efficiently is the key thing - and the dole cheats of the thread title are a small part of that, but a part nonetheless.

And I'd agree with your last point, we aren't even close to being out of the woods.

I get you but the system is based and sculpted around certain rules being followed. It's meant to apply to specific people with specific problems. If it's covering a wider of scope of people, it wasn't designed to then that's becoming a significant drain. When you talk about the services and benefits to society as a whole like education, HSE, Gardai that's all fine and well and those expenditures are estimated in a way which is the basis of our budget and the tax we pay. When more and more people go on benefits and possibly employers take advantage of this too...there's more tax money being wasted which could be going to the services we all share...Not sure if I explained myself well or not there.

looking_around · 20-11-2014 08:01PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

What happens to them if they are caught?

Is there a fine imposed on top of the money they've scammed?
Jail time for non repayment?
Are they entitled to claim the full amount again in the future if they should so need it?

fines, afaik.
~googles~

"Where there are payments which are fraudulent or paid in error in excess of entitlement, these will be stopped and overpayments will be assessed and recovered as quickly as possible.
In 2012, the Department introduced legislation which allows for up to 15% of a person’s social welfare entitlement to be deducted, without his/her written agreement, where he/she has an overpayment.
Furthermore the Social Welfare and Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013 provided for the use of attachment orders to recover overpayments
in certain circumstances. To further enhance our powers to to recover overpayments, in 2014 the Department proposes to extend
the notice of attachment powers to recover overpayments from other State payments. This includes tax refunds and redundancy payments."

so they stop the payment, and need to make you agree to a deduction in welfare to pay it. If you don't agree, they can take you to court. They plan to increase their powers to make people pay.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Compliance-and-Anti-Fraud-Strategy-2014-2018-.pdf

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 08:18PM

looking_around wrote: »

fines, afaik.
~googles~

"Where there are payments which are fraudulent or paid in error in excess of entitlement, these will be stopped and overpayments will be assessed and recovered as quickly as possible.
In 2012, the Department introduced legislation which allows for up to 15% of a person’s social welfare entitlement to be deducted, without his/her written agreement, where he/she has an overpayment.
Furthermore the Social Welfare and Pensions (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2013 provided for the use of attachment orders to recover overpayments
in certain circumstances. To further enhance our powers to to recover overpayments, in 2014 the Department proposes to extend
the notice of attachment powers to recover overpayments from other State payments. This includes tax refunds and redundancy payments."

so they stop the payment, and need to make you agree to a deduction in welfare to pay it. If you don't agree, they can take you to court. They plan to increase their powers to make people pay.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Compliance-and-Anti-Fraud-Strategy-2014-2018-.pdf

Free legal aid wig will get you off with you paying 2 euro a week for 30 years.
Sob story added of course.

EganTheMan · 20-11-2014 08:20PM

Yes definitely - it's coming out of my pocket . . .

Wompa1 · 20-11-2014 08:20PM

DarkyHughes wrote: »

No, I'd ask him what his trick is. I got let go 2 years get 188 a week & a few weeks ago I had a horrible toothache, I couldn't afford the 50 euro to go to the dentist & had to wait till the tooth fell out itself, agony it was.

F'kin hell. My dad pulled out one of his own teeth with a set of pliers because he couldn't afford to go the dentist but then he's got massive debt along with his unemployment which he created all himself.

Couldn't you have let one of your bills slide for a week or month and paid for the dentist?

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 08:22PM

DarkyHughes wrote: »

No, I'd ask him what his trick is. I got let go 2 years get 188 a week & a few weeks ago I had a horrible toothache, I couldn't afford the 50 euro to go to the dentist & had to wait till the tooth fell out itself, agony it was.

You're banjaxed now because the other two teeth will move into the gap
Get that sorted lively

lanos · 20-11-2014 08:22PM

Littlekittylou wrote: »

The Gardaí are the ones who work as social welfare inspectors.

'The new powers are being granted under the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill, which went before Cabinet today and which will be discussed by the Oireachtas in the coming weeks.

Although the actual level of welfare fraud is believed to be tiny, the Department carried out more than one million reviews of receipients last year in a bid to find any people abusing the system. The vast majority of recipients were found to be claiming the correct amount.'

Firstly when you report someone. They don't just prosecute straight away. There is an investigation.

It's possible to make an assumption or a mistake. People on SW or If you are getting certain disability payments you may be allowed to do work or training that is considered rehabilitative or therapeutic. People getting Illness Benefit and Invalidity Benefit cannot work (except for unpaid voluntary work). The Partial Capacity Scheme also allows people to work somewhat.If the person is on Jobseekers they are allowed to work three days.

When you report someone they will be put under SUI surveillance and bank accounts will be looked into etc. They will look into shopping and spending habits. They will be targeted for SIU surveillance. And if found guilty will be prosecuted and jailed appropriately.

What I am saying is. If you commit fraud you will be facing jail. But they are not going to simply take a report from someone who is anonymous and throw the book at a person who is innocent it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what is going on is happening.

They will have paper proof. Bank account records are checked and credit card checks made to prove if people are earning money while claiming sickness benefits.Investigators have also been able to access a person’s Sky TV bills. They will be asked to provide regular bank statements. Their property can be searched for unexplained cash.

The person will receive random visits. There will be in depth interviewing even under caution.

As far as I know continuing to draw the dole after gaining employment is far hard to do than it used to be.Apparently the Revenue Commission are working more closely with the Social Welfare.I have heard of some people been caught from 8 years previously.

They will investigate and make the person account for any cash in their property.If it is cash in hand then it's also tax evasion. You risk losing your employment rights and some benefits if you accept cash in hand payments, and may have to pay the tax and National Insurance contributions yourself.

Firstly you need to know what benefit the person is claiming to know it's absolutely not possible they could be allowed to work a certain amount of hrs. Secondly you would need to be pretty certain that they are actually receiving payment from work that is undeclared while on the dole.

Most reports are frivolous and most people are found to be being paid the correct amounts.

An innocent person would not have anything to worry about.

I have never committed fraud I think it would plague my conscience and work my anxiety levels up to ninety.

A claim is not suspended lightly. People are not brought to court or face sentencing lightly. They will seek hard evidence. But if there are illegitimate amounts of money around they will find it. If the claimant has to go to court they do get a lawyer.

I don't know whether or not I would report it. Firstly I have no idea how I would even know for sure.

An innocent person would have nothing to worry about though. It has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what is going on is happening.

Fraud So ain't worth it. They would have a criminal record for life. They would not be able to take a job in a bank or in accountancy.
Whether I would report it myself? No Probably not. I don't know for sure.

There are a lot of things I probably would not report.

you seem to be very well informed
what is the source of all this knowlege.
i only ask because you have declared a history of hairdressing and waitressing.

looking_around · 20-11-2014 08:26PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Free legal aid wig will get you off with you paying 2 euro a week for 30 years.
Sob story added of course.

If that, I assume most would just have the payment stopped.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it tbh, as I know of people struggling on benefits and people who aren't.
IME, people with council houses do well enough, people renting on the other hand, not so much, particularly if they're waiting for rent allowance etc.

I would only report if I felt they truly didn't need the extra and were spending it on crap. I would never report if it seemed like they were indeed struggling and needed it. Regardless of laws or rules.

downonthefarm · 20-11-2014 08:26PM

This system is flawed. What if someone makes a malicious or false claim that x is working or y is neglecting their kids because they have an Axe to grind

EganTheMan · 20-11-2014 08:27PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

F'kin hell. My dad pulled out one of his own teeth with a set of pliers because he couldn't afford to go the dentist but then he's got massive debt along with his unemployment which he created all himself.

Couldn't you have let one of your bills slide for a week or month and paid for the dentist?

I would love to meet this guy. He sounds great!

Littlekittylou · 20-11-2014 08:30PM

lanos wrote: »

you seem to be very well informed
what is the source of all this knowlege.
i only ask because you have declared a history of hairdressing and waitressing.

The net.

Littlekittylou · 20-11-2014 08:33PM

lanos wrote: »

you seem to be very well informed
what is the source of all this knowlege.
i only ask because you have declared a history of hairdressing and waitressing.

Hairdressing and waitressing was long time ago before college even not sure why that's relevant.

I'm no qualifed legal expert admittedly.

Means Of Escape · 20-11-2014 08:33PM

downonthefarm wrote: »

This system is flawed. What if someone makes a malicious or false claim that x is working or y is neglecting their kids because they have an Axe to grind

The only axe grinding is those who are milking the system.
There is a minority group in this country and a minority of them arrive home at Christmas in expensive UK registered cars
Can one take it that a minority of those are claiming the dole or indeed a minority of the Irish based minority group who are driving around modern vans and jeeps may also be on the take.
Anyone pulling them up or because they are a minority group they should be treated differently?

downonthefarm · 20-11-2014 08:40PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

The only axe grinding is those who are milking the system.
There is a minority group in this country and a minority of them arrive home at Christmas in expensive UK registered cars
Can one take it that a minority of those are claiming the dole or indeed a minority of the Irish based minority group who are driving around modern vans and jeeps may also be on the take.
Anyone pulling them up or because they are a minority group they should be treated differently?

Just saying annoy the wrong person and all they have to do is report you
Then they don't ha e the decency to tell you who made said complaint when you are fou d to be totally innocent

Would you snitch on a dole cheat?

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