Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Warning in OP, 10/12

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Lads you can't seriously take your anger out on Sturridge for something he can't control. I hate to say it but the blame lies on the man who punted everything on unproven players as Luis' replacement.

A classic example of a gambler taking an "educated punt", trying to reason that it's not a disaster if it fails. When in reality, he secretly thinks he's onto a winner, his ego won't allow him to think otherwise.

Sorry, but that's bs. It is well reported that we attempted to sign Sanchez, Cavani and Falcao but they wouldn't join us/weren't for sale. There wasn't exactly a handful of top class strikers available in the summer.

Benzino wrote: »

There wasn't exactly a handful of top class strikers available in the summer.

This is such a lazy argument. We tried/They didn't want to come etc etc. All excuses.

We have a scouting network and a transfer team. If they could not sign a quality player within our budget, and lets be honest, we can offer a substantial terms, then we should get rid of all of them and get people in who can spot talent. It really is this simple.

NukaCola wrote: »

This is such a lazy argument. We tried/They didn't want to come etc etc. All excuses.

We have a scouting network and a transfer team. If they could not sign a quality player within our budget, and lets be honest, we can offer a substantial terms, then we should get rid of all of them and get people in who can spot talent. It really is this simple.

The original poster said Rodgers took a "punt" on young unproven players and his ego is too big to sign a quality replacement for Suarez, despite all evidence suggesting we did try to sign a quality replacement.

Meh, call them excuses if you want, at the end of the day this isn't FIFA, it's not a case of just offering the asking price and then the deal is closed. Nor is there an infinite pool of top-class players.

Benzino wrote: »

The original poster said Rodgers took a "punt" on young unproven players and his ego is too big to sign a quality replacement for Suarez, despite all evidence suggesting we did try to sign a quality replacement.

Meh, call them excuses if you want, at the end of the day this isn't FIFA, it's not a case of just offering the asking price and then the deal is closed. Nor is there an infinite pool of top-class players.

Classic deflecting. Sure we tried, its not FIFA, we cant force them etc etc all excuses. I cant understand how anyone can be so flippant about incompetence. Its been this way for so long some people would make excuses for anything. We dont have the money, we dont have champions league, they prefer london, we have been out of the champions league for so long and we just got back in, players see us as a risk etc etc etc

Obviously its not just a case of meeting the asking price, or there is an infinite pool of top-class players. But we have employed people to do the deals and find the players. If they cant, get rid and bring in people who can.

Also, just to add, we put in a bid for Sanchez, but we didnt seriously go for any other forward other than Balotelli. So we did not "try" to sign any quality forward as you put it. Unless you can provide the evidence you have that we did other than clips from metro and the mirror.

NukaCola wrote: »

We dont have the money, we dont have champions league, they prefer london, we have been out of the champions league for so long and we just got back in, players see us as a risk etc etc etc

All valid reasons why a player would not join us. Are you just dismissing these as excuses??

NukaCola wrote: »

Obviously its not just a case of meeting the asking price, or there is an infinite pool of top-class players. But we have employed people to do the deals and find the players. If they cant, get rid and bring in people who can.

So then it's the scouting team that should be replaced? (again, the original comment was blaming Rodgers). Also, you can hire a team and pay them millions to find a unicorn, doesn't mean they will find one. Silly example, sure, but there simply weren't that many top quality strikers available in the summer. I can only think of Martinez as a possible replacement, but honestly haven't seen much of him so I'm basing it more other's opinions.

NukaCola wrote: »

Also, just to add, we put in a bid for Sanchez, but we didnt seriously go for any other forward other than Balotelli. So we did not "try" to sign any quality forward as you put it. Unless you can provide the evidence you have that we did other than clips from metro and the mirror.

There were numerous reports that we made approaches for both Cavani and Falcao, a quick google will show you this. Sure, some are from the Metro, the Guardian, ESPN etc nothing official, but there wouldn't be anything official from the club about failed approaches. Of course you can just dismiss these as tabloid garbage with no truth behind them, and you may be right, but one could easily argue that approaches were made to players that never got out to the press.

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Can I ask you a question; do you think there was a need to sign all of Ballotelli, Markovic, Origi and Lallana? 4 players signed for big enough money, 4 players who were either young/unproven or who had questions to answer.

Ballotelli was a panic buy, pretty sure even Rodgers admitted it. And although he has done nothing really, imagine what this thead would be like if we hadn't signed him and gone into the season with Sturridge (sicknote), borini and Lambert.

I don't think there was a need for both Markovic and Lallana. Lallana seems like a good buy if Rodgers would utilise him. Markovic seems overawed by the occasion so far, disappointing signing to date.

I believe we had no intention of signing Origi this summer, but our hand was forced when he had such a good world cup. We either brought him then or lose out on him.

Soft Falling Rain wrote: »

Given the pool of pool of talent out there I don't think that was too much to ask.

Genuine question, what top-class striker could we have signed?

Benzino wrote: »

All valid reasons why a player would not join us. Are you just dismissing these as excuses??

Money would cure a lot of those excuses. Some are valid for sure.

Benzino wrote: »

So then it's the scouting team that should be replaced? (again, the original comment was blaming Rodgers). Also, you can hire a team and pay them millions to find a unicorn, doesn't mean they will find one. Silly example, sure, but there simply weren't that many top quality strikers available in the summer. I can only think of Martinez as a possible replacement, but honestly haven't seen much of him so I'm basing it more other's opinions.

I never said anything about replacing BR, just the scouting network if they cant find a decent goalscorer. Surely you can agree that the amount of info available to the scouts who have tracked these players they could come up with better options. It is there job, either they were ignored or incompetent.

Benzino wrote: »

There were numerous reports that we made approaches for both Cavani and Falcao, a quick google will show you this. Sure, some are from the Metro, the Guardian, ESPN etc nothing official, but there wouldn't be anything official from the club about failed approaches. Of course you can just dismiss these as tabloid garbage with no truth behind them, and you may be right, but one could easily argue that approaches were made to players that never got out to the press.

I suppose this comes down to definitions or pedantics. Trying for a player to me would be the club making formal bids. That may be simplistic as a lot may be done behind closed doors etc but i think its safe to say we were nowhere close to signing the likes of Cavani or Falcoa for whatever reason. I'm not a supporter who craves big names by the way. We should really have been in for a goalscorer this summer and we weren't.

Benzino wrote: »

Genuine question, what top-class striker could we have signed?

No one here is paid or has the time to "scout" players and come up with a definite answer. Our scouts are. And we came up with Remy and Balotelli.

Genuine question, is that good enough?

NukaCola wrote: »

No one here is paid or has the time to "scout" players and come up with a definite answer. Our scouts are. And we came up with Remy and Balotelli.

Of course, but top-class players are generally known to most as they have proven they are top-class. In my opinion it's a bit silly to say we should have signed top-quality without even suggesting any examples. Just cause we were looking for a top-class striker doesn't mean one was available.

NukaCola wrote: »

Genuine question, is that good enough?

Of course not. Never said it was.

BenEadir wrote: »

Actually, it really isn't that simple.

If we can spot top level talent (as opposed to very young players with potential) so can all the other teams looking for the same quality and even if they don't as soon as we approach a player his agent (as he's paid to do) will contact other clubs to get some competitive tension going and secure the best deal for his client.

If another club in a more attractive location (London, Spain, Italy etc) and/or with a higher chance of league/CL success are prepared to offer the same financial package as LFC they'll get the player 9 times out of 10. LFC is a great draw for players who also happen to be LFC fans (Stevie G, Cara, Flanno, Lambo etc) but professional players not born in Liverpool or who didn't support LFC from birth don't give a toss. They want to earn the maximum amount possible, be at a club which is consistently challenging for honours and if that happens to be in London or a sunny city in Spain or Italy all the better.

We have to accept that for financial and geographic reasons we're fighting for players clubs like Chelsea, Man City, United, Barcelona, Bayern, Real Madrid, Juventus, PSG and possibly even Arsenal (Sanchez proving the point) don't want.

That is the simple reality.

This is a nonsense and was equally true (actually probably more true in relation to wages/transfer fees) when we signed the likes of Sturridge, Suarez, Torres, Alonso, Mascherano, Hypia, Reina etc.

We're not Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man City. Anyone who manages Liverpool will have to deal with that. However, in world football over the last few years we are among the biggest spenders out there.

The transfer committees and managers job is to use the relatively significant resources at their disposal to get the best bang for their buck. To bring in the best players possible. No one is asking for Lionel Messi's all over the shop. But this summer has seen us spend £60million odd on Lovern, Ballotelli & Markovic. Anyone genuinely think that for the objectives of our team this season, that was a good allocation of the finances at our disposal?

I'll leave it at this because this could go on for ages and I dont have the time or interest to debate it any further.

We lost Suarez. We apparently knew he was leaving for a while. Our strategy was not to go out and find a replacement but build our squad and add goals elsewhere. I presume it was thought out and planned carefully.

We added Lambert/Lallana/Balotelli/Markovic as our attackers. That on top of Coutinho/Sterling/Sturridge was deemed good enough to get the goals we needed. We have scored 14 goals in 11 games. It clearly isn't working and may never work.

The vast majority would agree we need a goalscorer now, and even without the benefit of hindsight that we should have bought one in the summer. People working for the club and making the decisions should have been aware of this. (Sturridge is injury prone, Balotelli was never prolific, Lambert doesn't fit our system etc etc)

I would argue that not signing a goalscorer is a failing of the Management and Transfer committee, no matter what the excuse is.

NukaCola wrote: »

All good points. We are competing with other teams for quality players.

However, if the scouting network came to BR with a player and recommended him highly as a goalscorer well then sometimes you will have to spend more to get the player you want. Especially when we lost Suarez.

Sure but the problem is we can't outspend the clubs we're competing with. If they want him as much as we do they can match and (as Chelsea did with Willian and Salah if I'm not mistaken) they can also out spend us.

We just have to outsmart our competitors by identifying young and/or under appreciated talent which there is little competition for. It worked for Coutinho, Suarez & Sturridge but it's a gamble and because you're always buying something which is either under developed (Origi) or flawed (Mario) you'll always have a high percentage of failures but you have to keep recycling the failures and possible failures (Aspas, Alberto, Assiadi, Coates etc) so that in the end you keep the ones worth keeping.

It's far from ideal but you have to play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had.

Effectively we have a team thats without its two best players from last season and a combined 61 goals.

We replaced them with average players. Its no wonder we are struggling.

Markovich is young but I have seen nothing from him to suggest he will get better. 20 million there. I was against the signing of Lambert from the off. No way is he good enough. Borini, will work and run all day but again he is simply not good enough.

That leaves us with Balotelli. Not able to be a lone striker, is overhyped by some sections as a better player than he actually is, even though I believe he would be far better suited to having a strike partner.

All in all, our horrible Summer transfers are coming back to haunt us. I don't understand why people are saying we didn't try - we were in for Sanchez and reports suggest we bid more than Arsenal. So we did try....

But we didnt try hard enough. After Sanchez it was like we just gave up. Now at this stage we dont know whether it was FSG, "The Committee" or Rodgers who decided not to actively pursue bringing in a top talent that can play as a lone striker.

I seriously doubt Rodgers wanted Balotelli just from what he has been saying about him from day one. I would love to know the real goings on regarding our transfers.

Needless to say we are utter **** at them and now with Sturridge out again, our season is ****ed.

Who was the last proven world class player we signed? I can't think of anyone to be honest. We do not have the draw of other clubs nor do we have the riches, if we are to make it in to the elite again it will have to be done the hard way signing very good young players and molding them into a team that is better than the sum of its parts.