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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #2792
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Public nudity.
    Excellent example; on the same spectrum but at the far end.
    However, in France banning public nudity has not achieved the worthwhile goal of banning public nudity (debatable as the worthwhileness(?) of that goal might be) since public nudity per se is not banned in France. In fact, there are quite a few parts of France where full and partial public nudity are entirely acceptable. French legislation forbids ' sexual exhibition' as an affront to public decency (article 222-32 of the French Penal Code), which may be used to prosecute public nudity if the nudity can be successfully portrayed as sexual exhibition.
    Which leaves French women in the enviable position of being able to publicly disrobe and stroll the three mile beach of Cap d’Agde, stop off for a naked lunch, and do a little shopping in the buff, all without fear of censure for 'public nudity'. And yet, unenviably, should she she simply veil her face whilst doing so, she can be arrested. Liberty at its' finest, I'm sure.
    smacl wrote: »
    Perhaps you should re-read the thread so. e.g. posts 4, 6,7, 9, 29, 32, etc...
    To make a short summation of the points you've chosen;
    4: Force Muslims to behave like non Muslims
    6: It's the will of 'society'
    7: I take solace from the increasing xenophobia in Europe.
    9: Democratically elected governments are entitled to create laws
    29:It's all about the assertion of political authority.
    32:I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy with some unnecessary measure that stems Islamification.

    A pretty decent collection of hate-speech really?
    smacl wrote: »
    For me, one of the more telling posts was this one;"I don't think a ban is "right" per se, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy with some unnecessary measure that stems Islamification."which I'd guess sums up much of the underlying sentiment surrounding this issue.
    I think it is quite telling; the fear of 'Islamification' (as if my granny might become an Imam if I don't watch out) is used as justification to oppress people (not Islamifiers). And yet, it seems to me that these Islamifiers are not the ones proselytising their values, it's the people saying Muslims must live according to their values that are attempting to 'ify' people, even whilst acknowledging these measures are unnecessary.
    smacl wrote: »
    Possibly not. How about the good people who frequent this forum who voted 619 to 358 in favour of the ban. Interestingly, from this thread the same group of people would appear to be predominantly left leaning liberals.
    Including myself. Which makes me wonder, what is so fearsome about a woman choosing how she dresses that makes left leaning liberals think like right wing fascists?
    kiffer wrote: »
    There is clearly a difference in the quality of restrictions though. Being required to eat popcorn and not burn live goats are hardly restrictions at all... Numerically more isn't automatically worse...
    Possibly not. But it is certainly numerically more.


  • #2793
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    A pretty decent collection of hate-speech really?

    However you choose to interpret it, my point remains that I suspect the motives behind the burqa ban go beyond caring for the best interests of burqa wearing women, women's rights in general, or public security. They all contribute weight to the argument for the ban, but as I've pointed out from my first post in this thread, there appears to be quite a bit more to it than that.
    I think it is quite telling; the fear of 'Islamification' (as if my granny might become an Imam if I don't watch out) is used as justification to oppress people (not Islamifiers).

    Rest easy, your granny is safe. AFAIK Islam doesn't let women become Imams, however eager your granny might be.
    And yet, it seems to me that these Islamifiers are not the ones proselytising their values, it's the people saying Muslims must live according to their values that are attempting to 'ify' people, even whilst acknowledging these measures are unnecessary.

    I suspect the fear, whether justified or not, is proselytising more moderate Muslims towards more fundamental positions. Cynically, there could also be a motive of making France a less attractive destination for new Muslim immigrants, particularly from poorer countries. There is also the issue that if people in society don't like seeing the burqa, removing it will remove a source of conflict, where the burqa wearing women is the one most likely to come out worst in that conflict.
    Including myself. Which makes me wonder, what is so fearsome about a woman choosing how she dresses that makes left leaning liberals think like right wing fascists?

    Oddly enough, I voted the other way at the outset, motivated largely by similar liberal arguments to the ones you're putting forward now. Over the course of the debate I've read a fair amount of material from both sides and take a slightly different position.

    Setting aside the liberal agenda, I suspect the primary risk carried with the burqa ban is increased polarisation between Muslim and non-Muslim communities in the short term. Longer term I'd hope then ban would have the reverse effect.


  • #2794
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Telegraph says that Rowan Williams is ok with burka-clad primary school teachers:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11221033/Let-Muslim-primary-school-teachers-wear-full-face-veil-in-class-Rowan-Williams.html

    Actual quote:
    Rowan Williams wrote:
    As I learn a language, I learn not only to identify objects, I learn how to interact with another speaker. We all know what happens when people don’t learn that, when they speak without a sense of the codes that are operating – the tone, the timbre, etc. [...] I suppose that’s what panics people about, let’s say, a primary school teacher wearing the face veil. As a matter of fact I think that’s largely a misplaced anxiety, but I can see where it comes from. I’ve actually been in public discussions in Pakistan with women wearing full face veil, and you learn to read differently, it’s not that those codes don’t happen… but there’s a cultural obstacle to overcome.
    Primary school teachers in veils - seems unlikely here in this country given the nation's religious requirements for primary school teachers, but even in theory? I can't see it going down that well.


  • #2795
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Primary school teachers in veils - seems unlikely here in this country given the nation's religious requirements for primary school teachers, but even in theory? I can't see it going down that well.
    Well, we've had plenty of habits and cassocks, a few veils could provide some variety at least :-)


  • #2796
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Well, we've had plenty of habits and cassocks, a few veils could provide some variety at least :-)

    True enough, but they've thankfully been consigned to recent history. The brothers and nuns are more often remembered as vengeful and vicious teachers rather than kind and caring. Not a time that anyone wants to see return, methinks.


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  • #2797
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,124 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Primary school teachers in veils - seems unlikely here in this country given the nation's religious requirements for primary school teachers, but even in theory? I can't see it going down that well.
    no, and speaking as someone who would oppose the ban on the burka, i would strongly support a ban on teachers wearing anything which covered their face.
    anyone placed in a position of authority or influence in relation to education or young children should not be sending a message that a tolerant society supports such a garment.


  • #2798
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    anyone placed in a position of authority or influence in relation to education or young children should not be sending a message that a tolerant society supports such a garment.
    Oughtn't a tolerant society send the message that it can tolerate a garment?


  • #2799
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    Oughtn't a tolerant society send the message that it can tolerate a garment?
    Not when the garment concerned is a powerful symbol of suppression and intolerance.


  • #2800
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    So a tolerant society shouldn't tolerate symbols of intolerance?

    There's not much point in being tolerant of things that aren't contentious; that's hardly tolerance at all.


  • #2801
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    So a tolerant society shouldn't tolerate symbols of intolerance?
    I'm not sure what you mean by "a tolerant society". The only usage I've seen of this phrase has been by people who wish to set language traps in debates.

    The burka blocks women off from integration into mainstream society; it signals compliance or non-compliance with religious orthodoxies which are inherently iniquitous. Non-compliance can, and has, lead to violence against women. I believe these points are uncontroversial.

    The burka therefore, not only oppresses women, but also operates to signal oppression. In neither of these usages is it acceptable in an equality-minded society.


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  • #2802
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you mean by "a tolerant society". The only usage I've seen of this phrase has been by people who wish to set language traps in debates.
    If you scroll back a bit it was the phrase used by magicbastarder. I took it to mean a society tolerant of different points of view, such as we might want to consider our own to be, but I could be wrong.
    robindch wrote: »
    The burka blocks women off from integration into mainstream society; it signals compliance or non-compliance with religious orthodoxies which are inherently iniquitous. Non-compliance can, and has, lead to violence against women. I believe these points are uncontroversial.
    Oh, I don't think you believe those points are uncontroversial. You're certainly aware that there are muslims who would disagree strongly with you, and that there are advocates for freedom of expression such as Amnesty International who condemn the Burqa bans. We've a few pages of controversy right here.
    robindch wrote: »
    The burka therefore, not only oppresses women, but also operates to signal oppression. In neither of these usages is it acceptable in an equality-minded society.
    Or, the burqa symbolises a glorious acceptance of gods will, a beacon to women around the world that they are free to worship as they see fit despite the demonising of their religion by others.
    Or it's just a scarf and people who don't want it wear it shouldn't.
    I suppose there are different points of view, which is generally fine in a tolerant society.


  • #2803
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    I took it to mean a society tolerant of different points of view, such as we might want to consider our own to be, but I could be wrong.
    Yes, you are wrong. In this society, individuals have rights. One of these rights is that a citizen can hold whatever opinions he/she wishes to hold. This latter right does not imply a reciprocal right on the part of other citizens to respect the opinions so held. There are plenty of people out there who appear believe that all opinions should be respected and these are the people who talk about "toleration" in the sense you use it here.


  • #2804
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Yes, you are wrong.
    Are you sure? I agree he didn't really explain it, but that's the way it came across. He did say he didn't support the ban on the burka, which does seem to align with the idea.
    robindch wrote: »
    In this society, individuals have rights. One of these rights is that a citizen can hold whatever opinions he/she wishes to hold.
    And the right to express those opinions, within the law, of course. Some citizens might want to express their opinions by wearing a veil for instance. Or a big green hat.
    robindch wrote: »
    This latter right does not imply a reciprocal right on the part of other citizens to respect the opinions so held. There are plenty of people out there who appear believe that all opinions should be respected and these are the people who talk about "toleration" in the sense you use it here.
    No, I don't think so. I don't want anyone to have to respect my opinions, but I do think they should respect my right to express my opinions, peaceably, within the law. I think it's tolerant to extend that respect to others whose opinions I may not respect, but whose right to hold and express them I do. In fact I think not doing so is oppressive, and not a symbol of oppression; an act of oppression.
    And that's the tolerance I think I (and maybe magicbastarder ) am talking about; tolerating other opinions you may not respect.


  • #2805
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,248 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    And the right to express those opinions, within the law, of course. Some citizens might want to express their opinions by wearing a veil for instance. Or a big green hat.
    So basically your right to express your opinion has to be weighed up against other competing, and in this case more important rights.

    The rights of others to live in a social space trumps your freedom of expression to cover your face.


  • #2806
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    I think it's tolerant to extend that respect to others whose opinions I may not respect, but whose right to hold and express them I do. In fact I think not doing so is oppressive, and not a symbol of oppression; an act of oppression.

    It is probably worth remembering that being tolerant is not a simple yes/no condition. There is a continuum that exists between total tolerance (i.e. putting up with any and every behaviour) and total intolerance (objecting to everything). While France, and most of western Europe, is relatively tolerant when compared to many other countries, there are still limits on what people consider socially acceptable. This is true of every society, not least those that are predominantly Islamic.

    Suggesting a society is intolerant because it bans a practice that a majority of citizens find offensive may be true to some extent, but in my mind this pales by comparison to the level of intolerance shown by those who insist on continuing that practice, fully aware that the majority of their fellow citizens take offence as a result. If you live in a society that considers wearing a burqa in public to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggest you should stop wearing it?


  • #2807
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,674 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    . . . If you live in a society that considers wearing a burqa in public to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggest you should stop wearing it?
    If you live in a society that considers expressing atheist views to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggests you should stop expressing them?

    If you live in a society that considers public displays of affection between same-sex couples to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggests you should stop engaging in them?

    The answer, in all cases, is no. "Reasonable behaviour" suggests that you should stop trying to dictate what other people wear, what other people believe or how other people conduct their romantic relationships. Banning burqas in the name of tolerance is a bit like shagging for chastity, or bombing for non-violence. You're not fooling anybody but yourself - and possibly not even yourself.


  • #2808
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    So basically your right to express your opinion has to be weighed up against other competing, and in this case more important rights. The rights of others to live in a social space trumps your freedom of expression to cover your face.
    It's definitely an interesting point of view, though I'm not sure where the right to live in a social space is enshrined exactly; you may be thinking of the ECHR ruling, which accepted that the State perceived the veil as a barrier to the rights of others to live in a space of socialisation which made living together easier. Not exactly a clear cut assertion of one right 'trumping' another less important one.
    However, I wonder, how many people who were prevented from living in a social space by women wantonly wearing burqas in 2010 are now freely enjoying those spaces as a result of the legislation? Has there been an appreciable increase in easy living together in France since then (leaving aside the protests and riots caused by the legislation of course)?
    smacl wrote: »
    It is probably worth remembering that being tolerant is not a simple yes/no condition. There is a continuum that exists between total tolerance (i.e. putting up with any and every behaviour) and total intolerance (objecting to everything).
    That's undoubtedly true. There are behaviors which directly impact others such as assault, murder, robbery, which societies are unlikely to ever tolerate due to their effect on others. Then there are behaviors which may offend people even if they don't harm them, which often fall into the middle ground (like wearing too little clothing, or in this case, too much clothing). And there are behaviors which we give no thought to at all, like breathing and eating, since they so rarely even offend people, never mind harm them, that we feel practically no compulsion to regulate.
    I would suggest a tolerant society is one which legislates against less of the activities that fall into that contentious middle ground than other societies.
    smacl wrote: »
    While France, and most of western Europe, is relatively tolerant when compared to many other countries, there are still limits on what people consider socially acceptable. This is true of every society, not least those that are predominantly Islamic.
    As you say it's not a simple yes/no though. France is now less tolerant than other western countries of eastern habits, such as modesty, whilst conversely being more tolerant of western habits such as nudity.
    smacl wrote: »
    Suggesting a society is intolerant because it bans a practice that a majority of citizens find offensive may be true to some extent, but in my mind this pales by comparison to the level of intolerance shown by those who insist on continuing that practice, fully aware that the majority of their fellow citizens take offence as a result. If you live in a society that considers wearing a burqa in public to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggest you should stop wearing it?
    I'm in no way convinced that the majority of French people find wearing a face covering offensive; the fact that they approve of a ban on face coverings is not the same as finding them offensive, or even anti-social. I think some French people are distrustful of Islam, and some French people are unhappy with the level of immigrants in France, some are even concerned by the erosion of traditional French society.
    I think banning the burqa was a way for French politicians to look like they were heeding and addressing voters concerns by 'dealing' with immigrants and taking a hard line to preserve French 'values', without expending money or effort on dealing with real issues like unemployment, or cultural integration.
    I suspect the only people whose lives have been improved by the ban are the politicians whose support was so precarious as to be swayed by the few votes their 'strong' stance earned them.


  • #2809
    Paulownia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 590 ✭✭✭Paulownia


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    It's definitely an interesting point of view, though I'm not sure where the right to live in a social space is enshrined exactly; you may be thinking of the ECHR ruling, which accepted that the State perceived the veil as a barrier to the rights of others to live in a space of socialisation which made living together easier. Not exactly a clear cut assertion of one right 'trumping' another less important one.
    However, I wonder, how many people who were prevented from living in a social space by women wantonly wearing burqas in 2010 are now freely enjoying those spaces as a result of the legislation? Has there been an appreciable increase in easy living together in France since then (leaving aside the protests and riots caused by the legislation of course)?

    That's undoubtedly true. There are behaviors which directly impact others such as assault, murder, robbery, which societies are unlikely to ever tolerate due to their effect on others. Then there are behaviors which may offend people even if they don't harm them, which often fall into the middle ground (like wearing too little clothing, or in this case, too much clothing). And there are behaviors which we give no thought to at all, like breathing and eating, since they so rarely even offend people, never mind harm them, that we feel practically no compulsion to regulate.
    I would suggest a tolerant society is one which legislates against less of the activities that fall into that contentious middle ground than other societies.
    As you say it's not a simple yes/no though. France is now less tolerant than other western countries of eastern habits, such as modesty, whilst conversely being more tolerant of western habits such as nudity.

    I'm in no way convinced that the majority of French people find wearing a face covering offensive; the fact that they approve of a ban on face coverings is not the same as finding them offensive, or even anti-social. I think some French people are distrustful of Islam, and some French people are unhappy with the level of immigrants in France, some are even concerned by the erosion of traditional French society.
    I think banning the burqa was a way for French politicians to look like they were heeding and addressing voters concerns by 'dealing' with immigrants and taking a hard line to preserve French 'values', without expending money or effort on dealing with real issues like unemployment, or cultural integration.
    I suspect the only people whose lives have been improved by the ban are the politicians whose support was so precarious as to be swayed by the few votes their 'strong' stance earned them.

    I can tell you that the vast majority of French people are in favour of the banning of the burqa, in fact I'd say that the majority of Muslims living in France are too.
    The Muslim population is well over 20% and outside of the ghettos in Paris region marseille and elsewhere they are well integrated with mainstream French society.
    This is not to say that everyone in France is happy with the status quo, the national front have a lot of support but there are cranks everywhere.
    France is, I think virtually unique in still having its ancien colonies which are part of mainstream France and enjoy the same rights and facilities as the rest of France. Nowhere is perfect, nobody is entirely happy with their existance anywhere but I think that France lives a more integrated racial co-existance than places like Holland


  • #2810
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Paulownia wrote: »
    I can tell you that the vast majority of French people are in favour of the banning of the burqa, in fact I'd say that the majority of Muslims living in France are too.
    I didn't say they weren't, in fact I said they were. What I said was I'm not convinced they find wearing a face covering offensive, or anti-social, and that banning the burka has not demonstrably increased easy living together in France.


  • #2811
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If you live in a society that considers expressing atheist views to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggests you should stop expressing them?

    If you live in a society that considers public displays of affection between same-sex couples to be antisocial, surely reasonable behaviour suggests you should stop engaging in them?

    The answer, in all cases, is no. "Reasonable behaviour" suggests that you should stop trying to dictate what other people wear, what other people believe or how other people conduct their romantic relationships. Banning burqas in the name of tolerance is a bit like shagging for chastity, or bombing for non-violence. You're not fooling anybody but yourself - and possibly not even yourself.

    Try that tack next time you're in Riyadh and let us know how you get on ;)

    Unlike being gay, wearing a burqa is not something that occurs naturally. It is a cultural artefact that to many people represents a form of fundamental religious practice which includes treating women as second class citizens. It is also not that common a practice among the majority of western Muslim women.

    France doesn't ban gay couples having a snog under the Champs-Élysées, and having been in Paris during the gay pride festival a couple of years back, I'd reckon they're a pretty tolerant bunch.

    I think the intolerance is of what people take the burqa to represent. Specifically, that fundamental religious practice that teaches women that they have less value and should be more restricted than their male counterparts is not acceptable in modern society.


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  • #2812
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Try that tack next time you're in Riyadh and let us know how you get on ;)
    Our intolerance isn't as bad as their intolerance doesn't really excuse our intolerance ;)
    smacl wrote: »
    Unlike being gay, wearing a burqa is not something that occurs naturally. It is a cultural artefact that to many people represents a form of fundamental religious practice which includes treating women as second class citizens. It is also not that common a practice among the majority of western Muslim women.
    So if you thought being gay wasn't something that occurred naturally, it would be ok to ban it?
    smacl wrote: »
    France doesn't ban gay couples having a snog under the Champs-Élysées, and having been in Paris during the gay pride festival a couple of years back, I'd reckon they're a pretty tolerant bunch.
    Except when it comes to choosing how you dress apparently....
    smacl wrote: »
    I think the intolerance is of what people take the burqa to represent. Specifically, that fundamental religious practice that teaches women that they have less value and should be more restricted than their male counterparts is not acceptable in modern society.
    Maybe they should ban treating women as if they had less value and should be more restricted than their male counterparts then? That way they could address the issue, rather than something they think represents the issue. Such a ban would seem much more tolerant than telling people they can't choose what to wear.


  • #2813
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,674 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    I think the intolerance is of what people take the burqa to represent. Specifically, that fundamental religious practice that teaches women that they have less value and should be more restricted than their male counterparts is not acceptable in modern society.
    So the way we affirm the value and freedom of women is by passing a law depriving them of the right to dress themselves? And we do this on the basis of "what people take the burqa to represent"? "I take the burqa to represent your oppression, Madam, so your views on the matter are something I am happy to override." Do you really not see the teeniest irony there?


  • #2814
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    I'm in no way convinced that the majority of French people find wearing a face covering offensive; the fact that they approve of a ban on face coverings is not the same as finding them offensive, or even anti-social. I think some French people are distrustful of Islam, and some French people are unhappy with the level of immigrants in France, some are even concerned by the erosion of traditional French society.

    Agreed entirely. It is not the garment they have a problem with, it is what it represents.
    I think banning the burqa was a way for French politicians to look like they were heeding and addressing voters concerns by 'dealing' with immigrants and taking a hard line to preserve French 'values', without expending money or effort on dealing with real issues like unemployment, or cultural integration.

    Perhaps, but those politicians have a mandate from their people, and I think the people of France do have a real issue with the spread of more extreme forms of Islam in their country quite independently of immigration concerns.
    I suspect the only people whose lives have been improved by the ban are the politicians whose support was so precarious as to be swayed by the few votes their 'strong' stance earned them.

    Cynically, I think your wrong. By putting a burqa ban in place, women that would have worn a burqa that no longer do so will receive a lot less flak going about their daily business than they might have otherwise. While some women quite possibly wear the burqa of their own volition, others similarly might do so due to peer pressure. For the latter group, the ban could well be a source of relief. I would also think that a Muslim woman from the banlieues has a much better chance of escaping the ghettos once she ditches the burqa. Fadela Amara covers this issue well.


  • #2815
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    So the way we affirm the value and freedom of women is by passing a law depriving them of the right to dress themselves? And we do this on the basis of "what people take the burqa to represent"? "I take the burqa to represent your oppression, Madam, so your views on the matter are something I am happy to override." Do you really not see the teeniest irony there?

    Not in the slightest. If you haven't already done so, Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores Nor Submissive) is well worth listening to, where Fadela Amara discusses how the burqa is a tool for female oppression in French ghettos.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkz1LFPgZDY


  • #2816
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,674 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    But they haven't banned it in French ghettos; they've banned it in public places.


  • #2817
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Agreed entirely. It is not the garment they have a problem with, it is what it represents.
    Or what they think it represents.
    smacl wrote: »
    Perhaps, but those politicians have a mandate from their people, and I think the people of France do have a real issue with the spread of more extreme forms of Islam in their country quite independently of immigration concerns.
    As I said before; I don't believe any of them were elected on a ban the burka plank, so their mandate to pursue a ban is questionable. And yes I agree, every country has a real issue with the spread of more extreme forms of Islam, I just don't agree targeting innocent women does anything to actually deter the spread of more extreme forms of Islam, or to show people that adhering to the more extreme forms of islam is misguided. If anything, it provides extremists with an injury to parade in their own service.
    smacl wrote: »
    Cynically, I think your wrong. By putting a burqa ban in place, women that would have worn a burqa that no longer do so will receive a lot less flak going about their daily business than they might have otherwise.
    That sounds suspiciously like the logic used to justify segregation in South Africa and America; we keep them out of the view of those who might harm them. Perhaps legislating against those who give flak to women wearing burqas would have been more equitable?
    smacl wrote: »
    While some women quite possibly wear the burqa of their own volition, others similarly might do so due to peer pressure. For the latter group, the ban could well be a source of relief.
    That's absolutely true. And of course, addressing the social issues that cause that pressure is more difficult than oppressing the people not subject to the peer pressure, so lets put some people down so it looks like others are raised up. Because assuredly those social issues will just disappear once we can't see them.
    smacl wrote: »
    I would also think that a Muslim woman from the banlieues has a much better chance of escaping the ghettos once she ditches the burqa. Fadela Amara covers this issue well.
    And even more if she abandons her faith entirely for a more popular one. The fault there is not in her for wearing a burqa, it's in those who discriminate against her because she wears it. Would we not be better off banning that?


  • #2818
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Absolam wrote: »
    So if you thought being gay wasn't something that occurred naturally, it would be ok to ban it?

    Straw man, done to death at this point. Being gay is not a reasonable comparison as it is not a representative symbol of oppression to the majority of French citizens.


  • #2819
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I'm religious and support the ban
    smacl wrote: »
    Straw man, done to death at this point. Being gay is not a reasonable comparison as it is not a representative symbol of oppression to the majority of French citizens.
    You're the one that offered the comparison between the natural state of being gay and the unnatural act of wearing a burqa, not me. Nor do we have any reason to believe the majority of citizens of France believe the burqa is a symbol representative of oppression. I suspect that to the majority of the French citizenry the burqa is simply a symbol of Islam, and all that Islam has been made out to represent, whether it actually does or not.


  • #2820
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I'm religious and support the ban
    As I said before; I don't believe any of them were elected on a ban the burka plank, so their mandate to pursue a ban is questionable.

    Fadela Amara certainly rose to prominence as a Muslim activist and feminist who was vocally in favour of the ban. Note we're also talking about a socialist here, who is one of the most active politicians involved in defending Muslim women's rights in French ghettos. They're not all right wing nut jobs.
    And even more if she abandons her faith entirely for a more popular one. The fault there is not in her for wearing a burqa, it's in those who discriminate against her because she wears it. Would we not be better off banning that?

    What if she wears it through peer pressure which forms part of an oppressive mechanism used to keep her in her place? From my understanding, this is certainly quite commonly the case.


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  • #2821
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,674 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    smacl wrote: »
    What if she wears it through peer pressure which forms part of an oppressive mechanism used to keep her in her place? From my understanding, this is certainly quite commonly the case.
    The problem with a burqa ban - apart from the inevitable squick factor that comes from a bunch of mostly middle-class middle-aged white men laying down the law about how women from minority communities are to dress - is that (a) it targets all burqa-wearers, regardless of their reasons for wearing the burqa (and this of course is why it gets enthusiastic support from Islamophobes) while (b) doing nothing to tackle the oppression of those women who are being compelled to wear it. If a woman is in a situation where some man makes her personal choices for her, removing his ability to make this particular personal choice on these particular terms does nothing to alter the power dynamic between them. Banning burqas might serve to conceal the underlying problem, but it won't do much to fix it.


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