The bench press and the keyboard

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 01:40AM #1

I've been training with a view towards powerlifting for the last three or four months after a year or two spent lifting on and off for various reasons, planning to lift as a 100kg junior at the IDFPA Nationals when they come around. I had a relatively athletic background before I was introduced to gym training and took to it pretty quickly working my way up to what seemed (even on internet forums) to be fairly respectable numbers in the squat and deadlift. In contrast my bench press seems to be weak relative to numbers people throw around on the internet and in person.

I know when it comes to gym numbers the internet is the home of bulls**t but basically I'm wondering if, in the experience of other forum dwellers, the bench is considerably more exaggerated about than the other two lifts or am I just in fact bad at benching.

Even when I look at the 300/400/500 craic that gets thrown around (135/180/230ish in new money) as a starting point for someone to be considered "strong" I feel getting to that bench number is far far harder than either of the other two. I train fairly regularly in UCD where you'd imagine there's plenty of strong guys knocking around and it's very rare to see someone throw up 100kg on the bench competently whereas generally you would see heavy squats and pulls quite regularly. Is the bodybuilding.com army of 315 benchers out there, hiding in plain sight or is bench press bulls**t just the strongest kind of bulls**t?

Numbers are 210/115/240 @ 98kg at the minute but they'd be gym lifts not all done on one day in a meet fashion. Any suggested ratio's etc I come across online imply a bench of 140-150 would be more in line with the other two lifts but like I unracked 140kg (with a spotter) the other day just to get a feel of it and I felt like I was trying to hold a f**king car in the air.

Mellor · 17-11-2014 06:55AM

I'd probably expect to see 135kg bench presses (300lbs) in the gym as often as I'd see 227kg deadlifts (500lbs).

Different people will favour different ratios but that said, your bench definitely appears to be light compared to the other two. Could be any mnumber of reasons why.

People bulls**t online about lifts, but they will do it about all lifts. If you want verified lifts, check out the results of competitions. The results of this years IDFPA Nationals are probably online.

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 07:02AM

Records for 100kg junior are 225/170/315 so 140/150kg on the bench would seem a very big lift relative to that, a lot closer to the top end than a 180kg squat or a 227kg deadlift anyway! The squat and dead were both set by James Fennelly in 2006 and my god did he go on to be a beast.

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2014 07:24AM

Look at the results rather than records.

But ultimately, competing will show how your numbers stack up so compete and wherever you place, you've put down your numbers to beat the next time.

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 07:35AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Look at the results rather than records.

But ultimately, competing will show how your numbers stack up so compete and wherever you place, you've put down your numbers to beat the next time.

There doesn't tend to be a large number of competitors in a given division so results can vary widely year by year and can be hard to get a read on, the records are more stable over time.

Yeah that's the plan all going well but it's the guts of 6 months away and I'm just a bit confused by why my training numbers don't appear to be stacking correctly, I'll be training hard on all three lifts irrespective of what the ratios between them do between now and April! At 80kg my strict overhead press seems to be evidence in favor of me just being weak at pressing at the moment so I suppose I'll just have to deal with the lack of a magic bullet and get the work done.

Mellor · 17-11-2014 07:59AM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Records for 100kg junior are 225/170/315 so 140/150kg on the bench would seem a very big lift relative to that, a lot closer to the top end than a 180kg squat or a 227kg deadlift anyway!

140/150 was in relation to your 210/240 numbers, not the 300/400/500 numbers.

A 135kg bench is 80% of the record.
A 180kg squat is 80% also,
227kg deadlift is 72%, but deadlift was probably his best lift. (Didn't he hold the WR?)

I don't think comparing to records is the best at gauging anything tbh, but that said In terms of %'s your bench is furthest away from the record. Your 210kg us pretty close.

There's a couple of guys who post here who compete at or around 100kg, including when they were junior. They'll be able to give better regarding "normal" for the division.

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 08:28AM

As an aside I had planned on posting photos/videos to prove I'm not exaggerating my numbers but I haven't got enough posts so instagram links with a space after the .com are the best I can do, profile on Instagram is basically a powerlifting log and I don't share anything personal on it or use it as a social network so feel free to give it a follow if you want to watch me struggle over the next few months!

205 & 210 squat: instagram.com /p/vZPGifo3pk/?modal=true
230 deadlift (don't have 240 vid): instagram.com /p/vO-UnyI3lV/?modal=true
100 Bench: instagram.com /p/u3RiM7o3td/?modal=true

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2014 08:38AM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

As an aside I had planned on posting photos/videos to prove I'm not exaggerating my numbers but I haven't got enough posts so instagram links with a space after the .com are the best I can do, profile on Instagram is basically a powerlifting log and I don't share anything personal on it or use it as a social network so feel free to give it a follow if you want to watch me struggle over the next few months!

205 & 210 squat: instagram.com /p/vZPGifo3pk/?modal=true
230 deadlift (don't have 240 vid): instagram.com /p/vO-UnyI3lV/?modal=true
100 Bench: instagram.com /p/u3RiM7o3td/?modal=true

There's a boards leaderboard in this forum (and some have videos in their logs) where others have posted their lifts as well. Just so you know not everyone in here is spoofing numbers

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 08:46AM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

There's a boards leaderboard in this forum where others have posted their lifts as well. Just so you know not everyone in here is spoofing numbers

Genuinely wasn't implying that at all, I've always found Boards great in that regard and I mean that beyond just the strength forum. Spend a bit of time on other forums that would make you awfully cynical about anything people claims lift wise on them but that's why anonomity and the internet mix so well I suppose. Basically it's more that I'm aware people on here could be suspicious of my claims rather than me being suspicious of theirs!

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 09:00AM

Mellor wrote: »

140/150 was in relation to your 210/240 numbers, not the 300/400/500 numbers.

A 135kg bench is 80% of the record.
A 180kg squat is 80% also,
227kg deadlift is 72%, but deadlift was probably his best lift. (Didn't he hold the WR?)

I don't think comparing to records is the best at gauging anything tbh, but that said In terms of %'s your bench is furthest away from the record. Your 210kg us pretty close.

There's a couple of guys who post here who compete at or around 100kg, including when they were junior. They'll be able to give better regarding "normal" for the division.

Checked that there and you're correct, Fennelly has 3 world records at 100kg Jr (315kg), 110kg Jr (320kg) and 110kg Sr (322.5kg). Serious lifting....

Alf Veedersane · 17-11-2014 09:17AM

A bench of 140 would have you in the running in your category alright.

There's your target...go get it!

LuckyLloyd · 17-11-2014 10:48AM

What is "strong"? If you can Squat 150kgs / Bench 100kgs / Deadlift 200kgs then you're probably stronger than 90% of the populace and are therefore "strong". The issue is the .5% of the population who have adapted Power / Weight lifting as their sport and are hammering away at it consistently. Or the likes of naturally gifted strength sport athletes / rugby players who have really impressive lift numbers despite it being an aside to their training focus.

Your numbers impress me anyway, I'd love to have that squat and deadlift. Everyone has different levers and weaknesses. You probably need to break down your bench and run more and more focussed assistance to try and improve it. No doubt you have the capacity to force it up there with the right programming and technique.

judosean2005 · 17-11-2014 11:18AM

They seem like very good lifts. well done mate.

I'm training in Limerick at present. IPO recent record.
we have a junior 20 years old @ 84kgs.
who recently achieved:
220kg squat,
145kg benchpress
282.5kg Deadlift (irish Junior record)

So they are the kind of figures you need be aiming for pal.

Sean

CWF · 17-11-2014 11:33AM

judosean2005 wrote: »

They seem like very good lifts. well done mate.

I'm training in Limerick at present. IPO recent record.
we have a junior 20 years old @ 84kgs.
who recently achieved:
220kg squat,
145kg benchpress
282.5kg Deadlift (irish Junior record)

So they are the kind of figures you need be aiming for pal.

Sean

Serious lifting... is he the foreign lad who was lifting at the IPOs in Boyneside and again at the Battle of the Boyne?

Da Za · 17-11-2014 12:16PM

Find a competition that’s on, enter it, plan a trainingcycle accordingly, train for it and compete.
Don’t worry bout where your lifts are now compared to so andso. Just lift, have fun, get a feel for it and then progress from there.

Everyone starts somewhere!

judosean2005 · 17-11-2014 12:39PM

CWF wrote: »

Serious lifting... is he the foreign lad who was lifting at the IPOs in Boyneside and again at the Battle of the Boyne?

He was at Boyneside but is Irish
Yea hes naturally very strong.

generic2012 · 17-11-2014 02:22PM

http://www.strstd.com/ This is the ratio calculator i use, my lifts are all relatively consistent with each other according to it, but my bench is lagging behind slighty (175/135/205, testing saturday and hopin to get recorded, I'll post them here or on the lifting leaderboard thread if I do). Bodybuilding.com warriors mightn't be implementing the pause in the bench, where as a proper deadlift and squat are the same in and out of competition.

Ps. I'm thinking of competing this year so I'd appreciate if you didn't!!

judosean2005 · 17-11-2014 02:48PM

I wouldnt worry too much about Ratios.
Its not really relative as they are very different lifts and techniques.
Example- my bench is only 75x3.
But id deadlift 175x3 and Squat 135x3.
So my bench is much weaker then other lifts.
Yet we have a guy who can bench well over 3 times his bodyweight. Squat over 3 times but only double deadlift.

So best advise i can give- get a good trainer or program. And ull benefit in all 3 lifts.

Hanley · 17-11-2014 07:27PM

You're just not a bench presser. Not to worry... It's nothing that can't be solved over the years with lots of pressing volume.

...if you're like most people who learn about PL thru the internet you think chest work is the devil and bodybuilders are knobs (it's not, and they're not).

Your total will be much better off for having a strong squat and DL than it will a big bench.

...and that DL you posted wouldn't pass in competition because it's hitched, and not locked out. But you've frickin' tonnes of power there and if you were just more patient you would have ground thru for an easy good lift.

Dwarf.Shortage · 17-11-2014 09:49PM

Hanley wrote: »

You're just not a bench presser. Not to worry... It's nothing that can't be solved over the years with lots of pressing volume.

...if you're like most people who learn about PL thru the internet you think chest work is the devil and bodybuilders are knobs (it's not, and they're not).

Your total will be much better off for having a strong squat and DL than it will a big bench.

...and that DL you posted wouldn't pass in competition because it's hitched, and not locked out. But you've frickin' tonnes of power there and if you were just more patient you would have ground thru for an easy good lift.

Yeah I knew it was dodgy in that regard, I pulled it aggressively off the floor and the speed it came up at sort of suprised me and I reigned in the aggression thinking I had the lift done by the time it got to mid thigh but sure 230kg doesn't be long about stopping if you stop pulling aggressively so I ended up in an awkward position and hitched my way out of it, not ideal but better than completely missing it I suppose

The bench video I posted has a 220kg pull in it right after the bench where I sort of get caught forward and end up good morning' the weight up but with zero hitching. My deadlift tends to be fairly strong until the bar gets above knee height at which point I tend to get caught forward in one way or another, have been nailing the lats & upper back lately to try fix this.

sean_0 · 18-11-2014 12:53AM

Might be a cultural thing. I lift in an Australian university gym which has quite a few powerlifters in it, but tons of regular punters. It's rare enough to see the regular punters squatting over 140, but plenty of them would bench 100+.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you. A set of five at 100 on the bench is pretty good for me, while a set of 5 at 180 squatting is no big deal.

I'm guessing these guys have been benching (and little else bar maybe curling) for years and years, whereas I only started 18 months back at the same time I started squatting. I've got more squatting volume under my belt than they do, but they've got more bench volume done than I do.

in summary, I think it's just a question of accumulation of volume over many years.

Dwarf.Shortage · 18-11-2014 01:33AM

sean_0 wrote: »

Might be a cultural thing. I lift in an Australian university gym which has quite a few powerlifters in it, but tons of regular punters. It's rare enough to see the regular punters squatting over 140, but plenty of them would bench 100+.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you. A set of five at 100 on the bench is pretty good for me, while a set of 5 at 180 squatting is no big deal.

I'm guessing these guys have been benching (and little else bar maybe curling) for years and years, whereas I only started 18 months back at the same time I started squatting. I've got more squatting volume under my belt than they do, but they've got more bench volume done than I do.

in summary, I think it's just a question of accumulation of volume over many years.

That ties in well with my confusion over the lack of big benchers in UCD compared to squatters/deadlifters, most of these guys are probably athletes rather than bodybuilders so bench just wouldn't be a focus for them.

Dwarf.Shortage · 18-11-2014 05:44PM

Hanley wrote: »

You're just not a bench presser. Not to worry... It's nothing that can't be solved over the years with lots of pressing volume.

...if you're like most people who learn about PL thru the internet you think chest work is the devil and bodybuilders are knobs (it's not, and they're not).

Your total will be much better off for having a strong squat and DL than it will a big bench.

...and that DL you posted wouldn't pass in competition because it's hitched, and not locked out. But you've frickin' tonnes of power there and if you were just more patient you would have ground thru for an easy good lift.

Dug out a video of the 240kg DL which I didn't think I had, would this pass in competition? Speed off the floor is awful and I'm suprised I was able to save it tbh, hoping with a better lift off I'll get the quarter ton before Christmas.

instagram.com /p/vjBvAKI3pC/?modal=true

Hanley · 18-11-2014 07:41PM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Dug out a video of the 240kg DL which I didn't think I had, would this pass in competition? Speed off the floor is awful and I'm suprised I was able to save it tbh, hoping with a better lift off I'll get the quarter ton before Christmas.

instagram.com /p/vjBvAKI3pC/?modal=true

FFS. That wasn't slow off the floor. Still looks like a warm up.

Wouldn't pass in comp for 2 reasons - you dropped it at the top, and stopped a bit shy of lockout.

But you could easily get that in comp by just being more patient and lowering it too. you've done all the hard work at that stage like.

The reason you're struggling thru lockout is because the bar is out in front once it passes your knees. And it's there because you're starting with the bar a bit too far forward. It should be roughly over where the knot in your shoelace would be.

That'll help prevent your hips lifting too fast as well which'll lead to a tougher lockout as well.

Dwarf.Shortage · 18-11-2014 08:18PM

Hanley wrote: »

FFS. That wasn't slow off the floor. Still looks like a warm up.

Wouldn't pass in comp for 2 reasons - you dropped it at the top, and stopped a bit shy of lockout.

But you could easily get that in comp by just being more patient and lowering it too. you've done all the hard work at that stage like.

The reason you're struggling thru lockout is because the bar is out in front once it passes your knees. And it's there because you're starting with the bar a bit too far forward. It should be roughly over where the knot in your shoelace would be.

That'll help prevent your hips lifting too fast as well which'll lead to a tougher lockout as well.

Thanks very much, will try to implement/experiment with that bar position over the next few sessions and see where it takes me.

Mellor · 18-11-2014 08:34PM

With some powerlifting specific coaching, even just one or two sessions, you'd remove anything silly that might cause a failed lift. And the improvements in set up, and technique could easily see you add weight all over.

ixus · 20-11-2014 01:36PM

Have you targeted any specific program to boost bench? Accessories?

Dwarf.Shortage · 20-11-2014 05:33PM

ixus wrote: »

Have you targeted any specific program to boost bench? Accessories?

I'm trying to ride the wave of beginner gains as far as I can so generally work up to heavy singles/doubles/triples and then do 5x5 with 80kg or so to get a bit of volume in. Assistance wise I might do dips or floor press', also train overhead press hard once a week with similar rep scheme and assistance. Don't do any fly's, machines, cable work or even much with dumbbells. No specialised programming thus far, trying to develop as much as I can all round before I go near Smolov etc, don't think I'm that advanced yet, still gains to be wrangled from linear progression. My total tends to jump as well because I wouldn't be fond of going for marginal PB's, squat or deadlift goes up in 10's and bench goes up in 5's, I know this will stop eventually but I feel like at this early stage if I can keep convincing myself to expect that sort of progress the body will make it happen, it's all in the head!

Alf Veedersane · 20-11-2014 05:44PM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

I'm trying to ride the wave of beginner gains as far as I can so generally work up to heavy singles/doubles/triples and then do 5x5 with 80kg or so to get a bit of volume in.

Is there progression in your work before trhe 5x5?

Say if you work up to a triple at 100, would you be looking to hit a triple sat 102.5 the next week or is it a lot looser than that.

You might be as well off building up the 5x5 rather than as just a means to a bit of volume at the end of your heavier weight, especially since you consider yourself a beginner.

Is there any progression on your dips or OHP or do you just go in and see how heavy you can lift on a given day?

Dwarf.Shortage · 20-11-2014 05:58PM

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Is there progression in your work before trhe 5x5?

Say if you work up to a triple at 100, would you be looking to hit a triple sat 102.5 the next week or is it a lot looser than that.

You might be as well off building up the 5x5 rather than as just a means to a bit of volume at the end of your heavier weight, especially since you consider yourself a beginner.

Is there any progression on your dips or OHP or do you just go in and see how heavy you can lift on a given day?

It's very much based on feel, for example I decided not to stop at 5 reps on my last set with 80 last time I trained bench and I got 10 fairly handy so I'll move that up to 85 or more likely I'll do the first two sets of five with 90 and the last three with 85 with the intention of it being 5x5 with 90kg soon. I would always try get few heavy singles/doubles in but they wouldn't necessarily always be new maxes, maybe consolidating a current number or just short of it if I'm planning a lot of assistance etc.

I know it sounds very disorganised but I do have quite a good idea of what I can lift for 1-5 reps on the main lifts and I'm trying to bring the strength levels across the board up. OHP I treat as a main lift and is on a similar trajectory as above. As for dips I just do a **** load of them when I'm finished benching, might add weight one day might go high reps the next just sort of get them done and presume once the intensity is there and the work is hard they'll be helping.

Mellor · 21-11-2014 03:05AM

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

I'm trying to ride the wave of beginner gains as far as I can so generally work up to heavy singles/doubles/triples and then do 5x5 with 80kg or so to get a bit of volume in.

Heavy singles/doubles/triples every session?

80kg is about 70% of your 1RM. You must have loads of reps in the tank there, 10-12 maybe. If you forgot about singles and double for a while and stuck to linear progression with 5RMs, adding 2.5kg each week. I say you'd hit 100kg x 5 within 2 months, possibly cruise past it also.

The bench press and the keyboard

Comments