We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

Permabear · 26-10-2014 09:36PM

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renegademaster · 26-10-2014 09:41PM

Permabear wrote: »

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not one person in the galway occupy had an iphone, or a macbook, i can guarantee you that, pity you didn't come in and give a hand instead of takign such an ignorant view to excuse yourself of any obligation to try bring about some change like everything was rosey in the system

Wurly · 26-10-2014 09:43PM

renegademaster wrote: »

not one person in the galway occupy had an iphone, or a macbook, i can guarantee you that, pity you didn't come in and give a hand instead of takign such an ignorant view to excuse yourself of any obligation to try bring about some change like everything was rosey in the system

+1 I was involved with Galway occupy and also the one on Dame Street. I didn't see what Permabear saw either.

Permabear · 26-10-2014 09:50PM

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renegademaster · 26-10-2014 09:53PM

Permabear wrote: »

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and your point is?

Permabear · 26-10-2014 09:54PM

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Wurly · 26-10-2014 09:56PM

There are a few people on computers in that photo. A few people talking. A few people doing other things. Different people doing various things.

Do we know what they were working on? Research? Campaigns? Raising awareness? We can't say they weren't.

And they had stoves. So? The whole point was to 'occupy'. I mean, they need to eat....

What way do you think they should have protested instead? And if you don't agree to a person protesting in this movement, what should they have done instead to make their voices heard?

renegademaster · 26-10-2014 10:05PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

so you decided to keep your valuable experience to yourself and 3 years on you still don't see that you could have helped the few inexperienced here to maybe make a difference, instead you whinge on about iphones and macbooks

Permabear · 26-10-2014 10:10PM

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renegademaster · 26-10-2014 10:18PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

they were focusing on the banking frauds and a few other select subjects

Wurly · 26-10-2014 10:27PM

looking_around wrote: »

There's a bit of debate on that, many scientists believe it's just natural cycle, the earth has gone through dramatic weather changes long before humans.

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

Yes, it;s called worry, use worry. And people aren't really that worried for their well being, just about not having everything as they are used to having it.

Most people i know feel stifled in some way. That is their well-being. When people feel empowered, they want to give back. And everyone is happy. Worry is a facet of fear. It's like saying a slice of apple pie didn't come from the apple pie itself.

Costs more, other than being out of pocket for the same produce, what do WE gain? local business flourish and maybe employ a couple of other people, while we're still less off? Can't punish people for that, they have the money, they are entile to use their money as they choose to.

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

What we buy isn't taking it from others. People starving would still be starving, just less would be grown and supplied.

No, that's not actually true. Do you have any idea how much we consume as a nation? it's colossal. And we produce a colossal amount of waste. Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

Why should someone who can't afford it pay the same as someone who can afford it? Why shouldn't people pay depending on their earnings. And I mean depending on net, with mortgage/necessities etc being calculated in and people and gradual increase rather than a cut off point. The changes have come about in the last 5 years. They are making changes that was point. What more do you want them to do? the can't change overnight.

The change model that I want to see means an end to such a divide of wealth. There wouldn't be an instance of people not being able to afford it. I said 'nominal' fee as well.

And there's no way anyone has "23 mental illness". you might want to check the records on that.

In an effort to sidestep your increasing hostility towards me when you said "Do you actually KNOW of anyone with a mental illness", I decided to share a personal experience of mine. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered. Now you are picking holes in a legitimate personal experience of mine? How condescending, rude and offensive.

So? your point?
I am currently experience the public mental healthcare, my mother suffers from borderline personality disorder, and is also recieving help. Check the thread "lets all laugh at depression" and see just how many people have positive comments about the current mental health facilities. They have come a long way. You just labled who had what, there's no examples or experiences out of, they show nothing at all. I repeat, my point is that it's IMPROVING, and can't change overnight.
When did they seek help, and did they take advantage of psychiatric nurses while on waiting lists? Many are told it'll be a 6 month waiting list, but you have a psychiatric nurse you can see weekly(and even daily in some cases.) and they do not. Not much the country can do in that case. Such as? your idea of worthy cause, may not be mine. They can only do what they can do, they only have so much money, it doesn't grow on trees. because, it works.

Again I mentioned I too had suffered from depression as you had implied that I had no prior experience of mental illness. In fact, it was a mere effort on my behalf to create some rapport with you so as to dampen the hostility. I won't bother next time.

multiple times you used the terms "us" "we" "you"

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

So not all intelligence is equal, thanks for confirming my point.

Em, no. That's not what I said. I said there are many ways to be intelligent. I said society was fixated on one type of intelligence, whereas in reality there are many more than one. All forms of intelligence are useful and are of equal merit to humanity.

That's what happens, by majority vote.

Exactly. Except we don't have a majority vote. The government make decisions whether we reject them or not.

Sometimes the collective good, isn't best for some, you're asking people not to be selfish, it's a trait in the majority of people, even unintentionally.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

looking_around · 26-10-2014 10:54PM

Wurly wrote: »

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

What are you doing to balance your polution? you're on baords, using electricity, is your internet provider balancing against pollution?

Most people i know feel stifled in some way. That is their well-being. When people feel empowered, they want to give back. And everyone is happy. Worry is a facet of fear. It's like saying a slice of apple pie didn't come from the apple pie itself.

I don't know this people, but ok.

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

More people know than you give credit for, they choose not to care. People know all about battery hens, and still buy the cheapest of cheap eggs or chicken. Because that;s waht they want, cheap. Increasing their knowledge won't change the majority still just want what's cheaper.

No, that's not actually true. Do you have any idea how much we consume as a nation? it's colossal. And we produce a colossal amount of waste. Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

I'm not too fussed to be totally honest. I can't afford to be fussy.

In an effort to sidestep your increasing hostility towards me when you said "Do you actually KNOW of anyone with a mental illness", I decided to share a personal experience of mine. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered. Now you are picking holes in a legitimate personal experience of mine? How condescending, rude and offensive.

Ok that explains you mentioning it. Your origional post comes across as if you didn't know. And you didn't know about current mental health improvements.

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

You want to control people wasting, that's controlling their choices.....

Em, no. That's not what I said. All forms of intelligence are useful and are of equal merit to humanity.

Actually what you said is we all have "equal intelligence". What should've been said, is all types of intelligence are equal.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

It is what it is, the way the world functions will change dramatically, that change won't come from chatting on boards.

I'm not totally happy with life as it is. Ireland can't force other countries to cop on, and it's actually not one of the worst offenders.

diomed · 26-10-2014 11:09PM

We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

........ Multiquote

Merrion · 26-10-2014 11:16PM

On Russell Brand: He is not the Messiah - he's a very naughty boy!

One eyed Jack · 26-10-2014 11:29PM

Merrion wrote: »

On Russell Brand: He is not the Messiah - he's a very naughty boy!

Ah but all this 'world inequality' and 'planetary devastation' is all a bit of a laugh really, with Russell and his 'expert in nothing' friend aping John Lennon and Yoko Ono by getting all 'gayness' in a bed in a plush New York hotel!

Nobody took it seriously then, and you can be sure as hell nobody is going to take it seriously now.

bb12 · 26-10-2014 11:42PM

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Permabear · 26-10-2014 11:55PM

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the evasion_kid · 27-10-2014 12:08AM

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

http://www.retronaut.com/2012/03/the-pyramid-of-capitalism-1911/

ressem · 27-10-2014 12:43AM

Wurly wrote: »

So that gives us carte blanche to pollute the earth as we are doing?

It's not about controlling people. it's educating them on the ethical and environmental implications of their purchases. A lot of people don't know about what companies like Coca Cola, Nestle, Pfizer and McDonalds do. They should research that and see if they still feel comfortable contributing to it.

Do you know where your food comes from? Where it is grown? How the workers were treated? Was the farmland stolen? What pesticides are you ingesting along with other potential poisons? Shouldn't you know these things?

The change model that I want to see means an end to such a divide of wealth. There wouldn't be an instance of people not being able to afford it. I said 'nominal' fee as well.

Meaning humans. Humans have the right to choose for themselves. I never said they didn't.

Exactly. Except we don't have a majority vote. The government make decisions whether we reject them or not.

We are all selfish. You are right. But we are being selfish at the expense of ourselves, our planet and other people. That selfishness should not ever be passed off as okay in my opinion!

Expecting people to research everything from scratch is unreasonable; production supply chains are huge things. We have to create chains of trust that others are responsible with their share of the process.

It should be made more simple for people to trace the steps of the production procedure and get an honest and accurate report though.
And this is becoming closer to reality.
---

People should not blindly sign up to a manifesto to reduce their impact on the world.

Reducing the human populations impact on the world's ecosystem and resources has proposed solutions, some implemented. Going from

War / reduction of populations through denial of essentials.
1 child policies.
Banning non-essential carbon consuming transport.
Large scale geo-engineering
Growing GM crops in the desert / using saline water.
Using insects for protein, instead of large herbivores. (risking new disease transfers)
Pushing people into cities for efficiency and reducing people's footprint.
Nuclear power (France, India's thorium reactor projects, the ITER fusion proto-prototype).
No cosmetics / work saving cleaning chemicals.
Restricted antibiotics.

A government or organization that tried to get the majority of Irish people to sign up to any of these would be rejected.

The purpose of a government is to improve the livelihood of it's citizens; and over the last 40 years the Irish governments / public service have, despite including big mistakes.

Many of the systems that we have are due to a buildup of decisions that seemed sensible at the time.

e.g. even though it would be more environmentally stable to feed old food waste to pigs / poultry, instead they are fed crops as it makes it cheaper to certify the animals as disease free.

Iwasfrozen · 27-10-2014 02:04AM

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Come on you don't really believe that do you?

fr336 · 27-10-2014 02:10AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WvAkhW-XNI

Valmont · 27-10-2014 09:06AM

Wurly, the only way you could know for certain that people are being selfish 'at the expense of themselves' would be if you were omnipotent. This is one of the cardinal mistakes made by those who favour an all powerful state structure: that they and their ideological brethren know best what other people need and want. It is an arrogant, baseless, irrational, and ultimately dangerous position to hold. Political dissenters in the Soviet Union didn't know what was best for themselves either, so the Soviet psychiatrists locked them in up in mental hospitals to cure them of their harmful opinions. This also ties in nicely with the point somebody made earlier about 'changing the people' - something Pol Pot sought to do but realised you probably just need to kill most of them and get to their children instead. Our current political system has failed us, no doubt about that - but that does not mean the only solution is to have some benevolent strong-man (sorry, benevolent consensus-builders) of the people take ultimate control.

KomradeBishop · 27-10-2014 12:08PM

This thread started off as an attempt to discuss the various problems mentioned in the OP, and to try and discuss solutions to them - I don't think anyone outside of Libertarians, want to debate the merits of selfishness, even when it leads to societally-self-harming behaviour, like perpetuating climate-change.

People seem to be taking issue with the OP (and are getting very hostile - accusing the OP of narcissism and such, and getting increasingly condescending), simply because she seems to subscribe to a different ethical framework, which is not compatible with putting selfishness at the center of ethics.

There's nothing narcissistic or dismissive, in assuming (as the basis of this whole debate) that people hold ethical views compatible with her own - it's the basis of this debate, that posters assume the problems the OP describes, are bad things - otherwise no debate can be had as people will just argue over the fundamentals/ethics (which seems to be what is happening).

The hypocrisy there is staggering as well - people who put self-interest at the center of ethics, accusing someone else of narcissism...

I don't think anyone here cares to try and win over people, who subscribe to an ethical framework based on self-interest - they are a tiny minority, and agreeing-to-disagree (because the two ethical frameworks are totally incompatible, making debate almost impossible) is the only way to stop that tanking the thread.
I also don't think anyone who subscribes to that ethical framework, are going to win anyone over into that framework - trying to turn this thread into that, also prevents discussing the topic the OP is trying to discuss.

It would be nice to actually see a discussion of the problems the OP describes, and solutions to those problems - not attacks on people, for holding mutually incompatible ethical/moral frameworks.

sheesh · 27-10-2014 12:16PM

bb12 wrote: »

http://www.thrivemovement.com/followthemoneypyramid

this is the real structure of the world and how it is run...the rest of us are fools if we think we can make any real change.

Why does it look like a paranoid conspiracy site?

why would the fact that David Icke is involved might be an indicator

alias no.9 · 27-10-2014 12:35PM

Wurly wrote: »

Yes but let's not blame each other. We are all legitimately doing the best we can with the information that we've got. Now that new information is emerging, we can make different choices.

Let's not blame each other, because it must be someone else's fault! All revolution has ever done is replace one set of elite with another. The current system for all of its faults does allow anybody run for office.

Also, taking this macro view of the world you seem to want us all to take, you are part of the pampered privileged elite.

Wurly · 27-10-2014 02:09PM

KomradeBishop wrote: »

This thread started off as an attempt to discuss the various problems mentioned in the OP, and to try and discuss solutions to them - I don't think anyone outside of Libertarians, want to debate the merits of selfishness, even when it leads to societally-self-harming behaviour, like perpetuating climate-change.

People seem to be taking issue with the OP (and are getting very hostile - accusing the OP of narcissism and such, and getting increasingly condescending), simply because she seems to subscribe to a different ethical framework, which is not compatible with putting selfishness at the center of ethics.

There's nothing narcissistic or dismissive, in assuming (as the basis of this whole debate) that people hold ethical views compatible with her own - it's the basis of this debate, that posters assume the problems the OP describes, are bad things - otherwise no debate can be had as people will just argue over the fundamentals/ethics (which seems to be what is happening).

The hypocrisy there is staggering as well - people who put self-interest at the center of ethics, accusing someone else of narcissism...

I don't think anyone here cares to try and win over people, who subscribe to an ethical framework based on self-interest - they are a tiny minority, and agreeing-to-disagree (because the two ethical frameworks are totally incompatible, making debate almost impossible) is the only way to stop that tanking the thread.
I also don't think anyone who subscribes to that ethical framework, are going to win anyone over into that framework - trying to turn this thread into that, also prevents discussing the topic the OP is trying to discuss.

It would be nice to actually see a discussion of the problems the OP describes, and solutions to those problems - not attacks on people, for holding mutually incompatible ethical/moral frameworks.

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

renegademaster · 27-10-2014 02:12PM

Wurly wrote: »

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride." And we … kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok … But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.

Davarus Walrus · 27-10-2014 02:14PM

renegademaster wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUiwTubYu0

Using Bill Hicks videos as an alternative to actually making a point really negates any argument you have. He was a fat man smoking cigarettes and shouting loudly.

renegademaster · 27-10-2014 02:17PM

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Using Bill Hicks videos as an alternative to actually making a point really negates any argument you have. He was a fat man smoking cigarettes and shouting loudly.

i wasn't arguing :pac:

Wompa1 · 27-10-2014 02:18PM

Wurly wrote: »

Yeah, you know what? I'm over it.

Thanks to everyone for the PM's. I appreciate your time, your suggestions and support.

To be honest, this has been a huge wake up call for me. I thought everyone wanted to save the planet. I thought everyone was sick of governments taking the p1ss. How wrong I was. It seems the mere notion of questioning it causes people to go on a witch hunt.

I don't get it. I don't get the hostility, the ignorance and the incessant need to just fight about nothing to make yourselves look intelligent. You are already intelligent. You don't have to be rude to make your point.

Anyways, no matter what I say, someone nit picks at it. So i'm outta here. I feel like I can't have a proper conversation with most here without it turning nasty. No doubt this post will be picked apart as well. It's just so boring and nonsensical to me.

So, thanks for your contributions everyone. I will continue to be conscientious as much as possible in my own life.

Will you increase my dole or decrease it?

We Really Don't Have To Do This Anymore...

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