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The Origin of Specious Nonsense. Twelve years on. Still going. Answer soon.

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Comments

  • #1742
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Determining if you are extremist in your views or a member of a cult is not something that you can do yourself. That can only be said by a third party as no one would ever think that way of themselves.

    Doesn't mean that you are not extremist in your views or not a member of a cult, you just are not aware of it.


  • #1743
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robinph wrote: »
    Determining if you are extremist in your views or a member of a cult is not something that you can do yourself. That can only be said by a third party as no one would ever think that way of themselves.

    Doesn't mean that you are not extremist in your views or not a member of a cult, you just are not aware of it.
    That potentially applies to everyone on this thread, including yourself, as well.
    Bias is certainly a possibility when judging oneself ... but it is also a possibility when judging others ... especially those with whom you strenuously disagree.

    The words 'extremist' and 'cult' are particularly loaded words in modern usage ... the former indicates somebody prepared to use violence to achieve their aims and the latter indicates somebody who is brainwashed to the point of complete loss of the ability to think for themselves ... neither term can be validly applied to moderate liberal Christians ... even the ones, like myself, who actually believe what they say when they proclaim their Nicene and Apostle's Creeds (that God is Creator of Heaven and Earth and is Maker of all things visible and invisible).:)

    To level the highly prejudicial charges of 'extremism' or 'cultism' against anybody would require very strong evidence that they espoused violence to promote their worldview and were brainwashed to the point of 'lobotomy'. None of this objectively applies to me ... so I'd ask everybody to refrain from such unfounded prejudicial name-calling against me.


  • #1744
    Gordon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,522 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    It's like that saying: if you think you're mad, you most likely aren't.


  • #1745
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Gordon wrote: »
    It's like that saying: if you think you're mad, you most likely aren't.
    It's like saying: if you're objectively sane ... you most likely are.
    ... but this doesn't stop anybody else calling you mad ... especially people who are mad themselves.:)

    ... and people who think themselves to be mad ... usually are correct.


  • #1746
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    To have extremist views means that your views are to the extreme end of what the majority of other people think. It does not (normally) mean that you want to kill people.

    Your views are extreme as the majority of christians do not think the same way as you or read the bible in the same unusual way as you. That makes your version of beliefs presented on here extreme.


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  • #1747
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.


  • #1748
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

    I'm still wondering how an omnipotent being can make bushes burn and write on stone, but can't stop people being gay.


  • #1749
    EoghanIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭EoghanIRL


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

    It's quite obvious really .
    http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t004.html

    I'm interested to see how Carbon Dating is flawed and circular .


  • #1750
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.
    Cod did it.


  • #1751
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,246 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

    Not a fish, silly!

    His whale had two up two down, a fully equipped kitchen, and, novel at the time, an inside loo. :D


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  • #1752
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,246 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    J C wrote: »
    It's like saying: if you're objectively sane ... you most like are.

    You think objectively you're sane, but you think the earth is about 10000 years' old.


  • #1753
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    J C wrote: »

    As for the Roman Catholic Church being abusive or corrupt ... all I will say in passing that my experience of Roman Catholics is that they are largely honourable loving and respectful people who have always treated me with respect ... something that you (and many of the other posters on the A & A) should also consider doing.:)
    Why should we treat you with respect? There are plenty of people I treat with respect, but for me treating someone with respect is pretty important, and I therefore don't do it lightly. A person needs to show me they are worthy of respect before I will respect them. I need to believe that that person deserves respect. You have not shown me you are worthy of respect, nor do I feel you deserve it. I do not respect you, and I most certainly do not respect your idiotic beliefs. I don't care if you love me, or if you respect me, that will be a one way deal I am afraid.

    MrP


  • #1754
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Why should we treat you with respect?
    Forum charter, line one:
    Forum Charter wrote:
    No personal insults. Attack the post not the poster. If you can't keep your head, take it elsewhere.


  • #1755
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.

    Ohh I know this one!

    it was a special fish. Prepared by God. The end.


  • #1756
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    J C wrote: »
    His objective was to show us the magnificence of His Creation ... so He Created the light beams in transit from the stars as well.

    So why not just create beams of light? Or even better - place some small, dim stars at or less that 10.000 lightyears away?

    And why the hell did he bother with creating streams of neutrinos that arrive at roughly the same time that we can see new supernova appear in the sky?

    It seems he is going out of his way to provide us with compelling fake evidence that the universe is far, far older than 10k years. If you are such a fan, the least you could do is oblige the poor guy and do as he clearly intends: for you to think the earth is older!


  • #1757
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    Forum charter, line one:

    I am sorry but that does not mean I have to respect him. There is a difference between feeling respect for someone and disrespecting or insulting someone. It does mean I have to refrain from insulting him, and I do try, but however powerful you think you are, and irrespective of what the charter says, you might be able to punish me for insulting him, but you can't make me respect him.

    MrP


  • #1758
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robinph wrote: »
    To have extremist views means that your views are to the extreme end of what the majority of other people think. It does not (normally) mean that you want to kill people.
    Extremism is a loaded word and it certainly does imply nastiness in how people behave.
    ... but, at the end of the day, I'm not even on the extreme end of what the majority of Christians think ... I believe exactly what the Nicene and Apostles Creeds say about Creation (and these Creeds are the prime articles of faith of all the mainstream Christian Churches)
    robinph wrote: »
    Your views are extreme as the majority of christians do not think the same way as you or read the bible in the same unusual way as you. That makes your version of beliefs presented on here extreme.
    I'm not at all sure that the majority of Christians don't share my views on Creation ... their Creeds are perfectly in line with my views ... and I know Creation Scientists who are members, in good standing, of all of the mainstream Churches.
    My views on Creation are certainly different to those of, for example, a Theistic Evolutionist ... but no more extreme.

    In any event, if you take the relative number of people who occupy various positions on the Faith in God spectrum ... then using your faulty logic that minority viewpoints are 'extreme' ... this would lead to the conclusion that because only 0.09% of the Irish population identified themselves as Atheists on the most recent census ... that all atheists including your good self are 'extreme' in their views.:)

    So ironically, I'm as mainstream and orthodox a Christian as you can find ... and you're a self-defined 'extremist' because less than 4,000 people out of a population of over four and a half million think the same way you do!!!


  • #1759
    Absolam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I am sorry but that does not mean I have to respect him. There is a difference between feeling respect for someone and disrespecting or insulting someone.
    You don't have to respect him in order to treat him with respect, by, for instance, refraining from attacking him rather than his posts, or by not insulting him. JC hasn't asked that he be respected, only that he be treated with respect, which is hardly an onerous request.


  • #1760
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,570 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    J C wrote: »
    So ironically, I'm as mainstream and orthodox a Christian as you can find ... and you're a self-defined 'extremist' because less than 4,000 people out of a population of over four and a half million think the way you do!!!
    Or at least returned the census with the word atheist written in the religion section.


  • #1761
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm still wondering how Jonah survived three days in a fish.
    ... and so am I.


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  • #1762
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Or at least returned the census with the word atheist written in the religion section.
    I take your point that the Census figure has its deficiencies ... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census) ... and defining Creationists as 'extreme' on the basis of their supposed small population size (which I don't think is true BTW), logically also defines all Atheists in Ireland as 'extreme' as well, because of their low population size ... so how does it feel to be labelled as 'extreme' then?

    ... and BTW I'm not labelling you so ... it's robinph's logic that is defining you as 'extreme' in your views simply because 'the majority (over 99%) do not think the same way as you'.
    wrote:
    Originally Posted by robinph
    Your views are extreme as the majority of christians do not think the same way as you ...
    Atheists in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones ... by calling other supposed minorities 'extremists' on the basis of their supposed relative population size !!!:eek:


  • #1763
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,246 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    J C wrote: »
    ... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census)

    I'm an atheist and I didn't write 'atheist' in the box on the census. I ticked 'No Religion'. Many others did, too. The real figure for atheists is probably closer to 7.5%. That particular question on the census is badly worded.

    That said, Creationists aren't considered extreme because there are so few of them; they are considered extreme because of their views.

    I thought that much would be obvious to a scientist.


  • #1764
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    While "extremist" can be considered a loaded term, I think it is fair to call your point of view extreme. Most religious people consider at least some of the stories of their religion allegorical in nature, while on the literally true vs allegorically true sliding scale you, thus far, have taken an extreme literalist position: even stories that require radically supernatural circumstances you consider literally true.

    As such, mainstream you most certainly are not: very few people believe in vegetarian tyrannosaurs because of religious reasons. And if such beliefs are part of the orthodoxy of your particular religious organisation, then they would most certainly be considered as part of the radical fringe of Christianity.

    You could consider some flavors of atheism as an extreme position as well: most people believe in at least some supernatural occurrences.

    However, you could also consider it perfectly mainstream: most people think that the majority of gods do not exist. You yourself agree with me that Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Odin, Brahma, Vishnu, Amun-Ra, Isis, Ahura Mazda, Tiamat, Mithra, Ba'al, and a great many other deities do not exist as described in their religious texts. The only difference between you and me is that I believe in 1 fewer Gods and 1 or 2 fewer demi-gods, depending on your point of view on the existence of a devil.


  • #1765
    EoghanIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭EoghanIRL


    J C wrote: »
    I take your point that the Census figure has its deficiencies ... but the general point remains that Atheists are a tiny minority in Ireland (even if they are double or treble the 0.09% figure recorded in the census) ... and defining Creationists as 'extreme' on the basis of their supposed small population size (which I don't think is true BTW), logically also defines all Atheists in Ireland as 'extreme' as well, because of their low population size ... so how does it feel to be labelled as 'extreme' then?

    ... and BTW I'm not labelling you so ... it's robinph's logic that is defining you as 'extreme' in your views simply because 'the majority (over 99%) do not think the same way as you'.


    Atheists in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones ... by calling other supposed minorities 'extremists' on the basis of their supposed relative population size !!!:eek:
    Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
    That's what your religion does to people .

    Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .


  • #1766
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    I'd call Wahhabists from Saudi Arabia extreme regardless of what percentage of the Saudi population they constitute. I'd call the Taliban extreme regardless of what support they have. I'd call Ian Paisley extreme regardless of what support he had.


  • #1767
    kiffer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    EoghanIRL wrote: »
    Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
    That's what your religion does to people .

    Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .

    I think that's a bit of an extreme statement.
    Most if the people I have spoken to about the census say they put down 'no religion' because atheism isn't a religion.
    That said we've seen polls of the population that came back showing a fair few* people who self-report or are recorded as Catholic don't believe in God.

    People seem to put down Catholic for social, political or keeping mammy happy reasons.

    *for example a Catholic Bishops Conference report:"Practice and Belief among Catholics in the Republic of Ireland" from 2011 reports that 7-8% of catholics don't actually believe in God. Another 13.5% are on the fence, sometimes they believe and sometimes they don't.


  • #1768
    EoghanIRL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭EoghanIRL


    kiffer wrote: »
    I think that's a bit of an extreme statement.
    Most if the people I have spoken to about the census say they put down 'no religion' because atheism isn't a religion.
    That said we've seen polls of the population that came back showing a fair few* people who self-report or are recorded as Catholic don't believe in God.


    People seem to put down Catholic for social, political or keeping mammy happy reasons.

    *for example a Catholic Bishops Conference report:"Practice and Belief among Catholics in the Republic of Ireland" from 2011 reports that 7-8% of catholics don't actually believe in God. Another 13.5% are on the fence, sometimes they believe and sometimes they don't.

    Fear doesn't necessarily mean fearing for your life or anything that extreme .
    Like what you said in bold . Fear of upsetting family members, social groups etc .
    Otherwise why would they put down that they are catholic even though they don't believe in God .

    Jc can't say that atheism is extremist just because it represents a small percentage of the population . I mean what's extreme about not believing in God ?

    Creationism is extreme as they take the bible literally , more so than other Christians .
    Believing that the earth is circa 10 thousand years old and believing in implausible stories such as the flood and taking them literally is extremist in comparison with other Christians .
    If you asked the average catholic how old the earth is , do you think they would say 10 thousand years old?


  • #1769
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    ... and so am I.

    But you're absolutely certain that he did?


  • #1770
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I'm an atheist and I didn't write 'atheist' in the box on the census. I ticked 'No Religion'. Many others did, too. The real figure for atheists is probably closer to 7.5%. That particular question on the census is badly worded.
    If you take the no religion, atheist and agnostic totals it comes to about 6%. With over 90% declaring themselves to be Christian and nearly all of their denominations assenting to the Apostles or Nicene Creeds as articles of faith the number of Creationists out there are an order of magnitude in excess of the number 'Atheists'. That still doesn't make an Atheist's views extreme IMO ... just different ... from people of faith (many of whom hold views that are also different from each other).
    Pherekydes wrote: »
    That said, Creationists aren't considered extreme because there are so few of them; they are considered extreme because of their views.
    ... and how is that determined?
    ... is there some kind of 'viewometer' that we can, for example, run Atheist views on God through ... that will come up with an answer on their level of 'extremism'?


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  • #1771
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    EoghanIRL wrote: »
    Many people don't put down that they are atheist because of fear.
    That's what your religion does to people .
    That's what people do to themselves. Nobody is forcing anybody to fill in the census incorrectly ... indeed they have a legal obligation to fill it in correctly.
    EoghanIRL wrote: »
    Also you are seriously deluded if you think being an atheist is extreme .
    I wouldn't use the word 'extreme' to describe any faith position that wasn't advocating or using violence to promote itself. Creationists certainly don't fall into this category ... and neither does any of the Atheists, that I know, including yourself.


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