Irish universities plummet in rankings; 4 UK institutions in top 5

desertcircus · 16-09-2014 09:55AM

Not mentioned in the story: anything about assessing teaching quality, how financially manageable it is to attend as an undergraduate, or any of half a dozen other factors an eighteen-year-old LC student would probably like to know about. The number of citations a faculty earns is utterly meaningless for an undergraduate, especially measured at a university scale rather than within a department.

Cool Mo D · 16-09-2014 10:00AM

The reason the Irish colleges are falling is down to a lack of money. The quality of teaching in an institution is almost irrelevant to these rankings - most weight goes on the research output and repution of the university.

Since Irish universities have had their research funding slashed, and there is basically no standard career path for academics in Ireland, unlike the tenure track system in the USA, the reputation of Irish universities is dropping.

Here is an example of the real reason Irish universities are falling down the rankings. Just remember, rankings have almost nothing to do with the quality of education you get from a university, be it good, bad or indifferent.

SpaceTime · 16-09-2014 10:00AM

pickarooney wrote: »

If the total number of students drops, then so do the total fees (which are not being paid by students or the government). Or have I missed a bit?

Those rankings look suspiciously anglocentric in any case.

They're very much geared towards an American model of exclusive (and I mean that literally), relatively small institutions that have a large focus on postgraduate research.

Other than a handful of British universities, they seem to rank European public universities badly.

I'm not sure if they're actually measuring the right things or that they're even very fair.

I don't think Irish universities should be sitting on their hands either though. They need to be driving as much research as possible.

UCDVet · 16-09-2014 10:07AM

Ziphius wrote: »

Ah, but were your past universities ranked above or below UCD in the QS rankings?

Both actually.

Still, if you look at the methodology used - well, it's subjective at best. This is just my opinion, but as a (non-PhD) student, I don't care about

Citations per faculty at all - I've read some papers, a lot of them a crap. The majority of them are crap. And people writing crap papers cite people who wrote crap papers all the time. Also, if you do have some amazing researcher - who cares? Unless he or she is teaching the class and the class is at the level where it matters (high PhD level) - who cares? Not me.

International student ratio - Absolutely meaningless to me. Who cares. I want to learn the topics I signed up for. I don't care the country of origin of the girl sitting next to me.

International staff ratio - Could not care less. My only concern is that I can understand the staff. This is saying that an Irish Professor is more valuable in France than she is in Ireland. Nonsense.

That's 40% of their rankings that I absolutely think is meaningless. And to be honest 'Academic reputation' is already a cumulative measure of everything, and very likely to be meaningless.

So yeah, I don't personally put much value in the rankings, and while I've attended Universities ranked higher and lower than UCD - I can say that UCD is far more disorganized than any University I, or any family member, has attended. But that's not given any value at all in these rankings. Except possibly the ill-defined 'Academic reputation'.

Sugar Free · 16-09-2014 10:11AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Why would international students improve the rankings, and why would they want to go to Irish universities in the first place? It would still just be a case of the richest foreign students rather than the brightest ones filling up the classes.

Slightly OT but my experience of this during a masters in a business school is that they're a mixed bag (much like the Irish students). A few genuinely talented, smart and driven students, a few wasters and a lot of varying degrees in between.

All paying something like 35K (times 30 students or so) for the course I did. Decent little earner for the university.

Intifada · 16-09-2014 10:31AM

kupus wrote: »

Its not jsut rag week.... its the whole drinking culture of college

You're literally posting in a thread where English universities are being lauded.

Have you ever been to England, English universities specifically?

renegademaster · 16-09-2014 02:00PM

FactCheck wrote: »

Irish universities continue to fall in international rankings:

Only UCD and NUIG bucked the trend, and 139th and 280th isn't exactly anything to be writing home about.

Meanwhile, over the water:

Given this information, it seems it's high time for far more of our brightest Leaving Cert students to start considering going abroad for their undergraduate degrees. An Oxbridge or Ivy League degree is life-changing, and student bursaries and loans make it affordable for anyone. Why waste your potential on a second-tier institution if you're capable of the best?

If you're hoping to get above 550 points (perhaps slightly higher, I'm not sure I'm keeping pace with grade inflation) it looks like a no-brainer to start working on your SAT scores and UCAS statement.

correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't some one of our esteemed government ministers trying to tell us at some stage over the last 12 - 24 months that Irelands universities are amongst the best in the world

LOL

SpaceTime · 16-09-2014 02:04PM

renegademaster wrote: »

correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't some one of our esteemed government ministers trying to tell us at some stage over the last 12 - 24 months that Irelands universities are amongst the best in the world

LOL

It depends which set of matrixes you use to rank them and whether you're looking at full institutions or just individual schools /departments.

ghostchant · 16-09-2014 02:32PM

renegademaster wrote: »

correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't some one of our esteemed government ministers trying to tell us at some stage over the last 12 - 24 months that Irelands universities are amongst the best in the world

LOL

Considering the amount of universities in the world, they'd be right.

A quick google search shows anything from 9,000-20,000 universities (higher education institutions might be more accurate) - being conservative and taking 9000, UCD for instance would be in the top 2% in the world

The_Captain · 16-09-2014 02:59PM

Just FYI lads, those rankings are weighted heavily towards research and papers published by tenured staff, as opposed to a reflection of the actual teaching ability of the college.

You'll find that Irish unis have slipped in recent years due to a drop in the level of income, and there's a massive difference in the level of money available to Cambridge or MIT compared to taxpayer funded Irish institutions which have been struggling to cover operational costs since the recession.

UCDVet · 16-09-2014 02:59PM

ghostchant wrote: »

Considering the amount of universities in the world, they'd be right.

A quick google search shows anything from 9,000-20,000 universities (higher education institutions might be more accurate) - being conservative and taking 9000, UCD for instance would be in the top 2% in the world

Well sure - and I can brag to women about how I'm in the top 10% of global earners - but they'll still laugh when they see my tiny 1-bed apartment.

gesler · 16-09-2014 03:02PM

Good to have 4 of the 5 best colleges in the world on our doorstep, as far as local small country colleges go I think UCD and Trinity are punching above their weight

The_Captain · 16-09-2014 03:14PM

UCDVet wrote: »

Well sure - and I can brag to women about how I'm in the top 10% of global earners - but they'll still laugh when they see my tiny 1-bed apartment.

1-bed apartment is a funny name to give your penis

Peist2007 · 16-09-2014 04:09PM

I went to both Trinity and NUIG and was really disappointed with the standard of lecturing, especially in NUIG. Some guy basically reading your notes back to you. I decided in week one of NUIG that lectures were a waste of time. I would read the notes in my own time. Turned out grand.

That is what i find the biggest problem with teaching in this country. Teachers dont teach. They regurgitate and expect stuff to be learnt off for a memory exam at the end of the year. Its no wonder other countries have to be moving ahead of us.

Intifada · 16-09-2014 04:14PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I went to both Trinity and NUIG and was really disappointed with the standard of lecturing, especially in NUIG. Some guy basically reading your notes back to you. I decided in week one of NUIG that lectures were a waste of time. I would read the notes in my own time. Turned out grand.

Yup. I went to 2 lectures in 3 years and passed easily, could have done much better sure but that was only down to myself.

Depends on your subject though - the ones that deal in plain facts you're as well off reading them at home, but in others discussion might help.

The need for conventional classroom/lecture hall courses is rapidly coming to an end anyway. Prestige is the only thing that keeps them going.

Zubeneschamali · 16-09-2014 04:15PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

That is what i find the biggest problem with teaching in this country. Teachers dont teach.

I'd say the lecturers would be upset if teachers stood up and started teaching during lectures.

sunnyt · 16-09-2014 04:39PM

A lot of Irish Universities have had their funding cut and so are under huge pressure to accept international students who will pay big fees and increase department budgets. It can be hard to establish the academic ability of these students and there can be huge pressure to pass them regardless of performance. This in turn can lead to research for the sake of research; the research really does not add to what we know about the planet or make any difference to anyone...but hey...they've got a PhD and paid 40,000-50,000 euro in fees.
There is little or no career progression for lecturers and this can be reflected sometimes in their apathetic approach to teaching. I had some shocking lecturers at undergrad level and I went to the UK to do further studies as I was so put off by my undergrad experience.
Many foreign universities have also embraced e-learning; something Irish universities will need to do if they want to capture a broader audience. Very few Irish universities offer programmes through distance learning. While this may not be for everyone, universities such as LSE and Imperial offer a good choice of online courses which require nothing but a laptop and internet connection and so can attract a large volume of students from all over the world. The creme de la creme are unlikely to want to live in digs in Dublin while doing their further studies.
Saying that, as another poster put it, Trinity and UCD are still ranked in the top 2% of universities worldwide!

Peist2007 · 16-09-2014 04:57PM

Intifada wrote: »

Yup. I went to 2 lectures in 3 years and passed easily, could have done much better sure but that was only down to myself.

Depends on your subject though - the ones that deal in plain facts you're as well off reading them at home, but in others discussion might help.

The need for conventional classroom/lecture hall courses is rapidly coming to an end anyway. Prestige is the only thing that keeps them going.

Yeah just learn off. Even the tutorials in Galway were crap, went to one tutorial in 5 years and easily got a couple of 2:1s. Plus, despite studying subjects i am now working professionally in, absolutely zero of it made any practical difference to me in the real world.

Peist2007 · 16-09-2014 04:59PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd say the lecturers would be upset if teachers stood up and started teaching during lectures.

I would include secondary school teachers in my summation. Although my opinion on that is tempered somewhat by the fact that i am older now and can see the middle of the road heads from my year in school who ended up secondary school teachers. I expected too much. I think it is reasonable to expect things to jump in university. Didnt really happen.

Iwasfrozen · 16-09-2014 05:08PM

Blame free fees. The government just isn't able to afford to keep our universities in adequate condition.

If the Irish government wants to reverse this thread they must abandon the idea of universal third level education and introduce and interest free loan system.

Third level education should be a privilege anyway.

_Whimsical_ · 16-09-2014 05:19PM

I think there's also a problem with Irish universities over grading, ie grading above the ability of the exam candidates. In Ireland in recent years while funding has been dramatically cut, pass exam results and the awarding of hons degrees has actually increased substantially. That just does not make sense.To do well in the leaving cert you have to attend school daily,have little sick leave, devote yourself to the course and sacrifice an active social life. However you can still do well in uni if you drink 3 nights a week, turn up to half the lectures and have a roaring active social life. That also does not make sense.

Several posters have claimed here that they didn't bother attending lectures and tutorials and still passed.The reason for that is because exam questions are often given directly word for word to candidates in class and marking is in no way rigorous.
That might be fine from an individuals perspective but on the whole it creates a system where degrees will becomes of less value from certain institutions and hardworking students will be penalised in the future when an employer sees a certain college on a cv and dismisses the candidate for someone from a more reputable institution.

The answer is not just more funding, laziness is also endemic among Ireland's teaching academics. Only last year I watched someone in a uni degree course complete a maths assignment online that was part of their continuous assessment and counted for a substantial portion of their end of year mark.To complete it all she had to do was click "forward" on the browser to get to a page where all the correct answers were already highlighted. Then she clicked back on the browser and filled in the necessary answers in her own account. What should have taken hours of work was completed in 10 mins. Needless to say she enjoyed an over 90% average in the end of year maths mark despite having barely passed pass Leaving Cert maths. This was a trick used by all the students in this class in several online assesments and a source of much hilarity it seems. I have no doubt but the lecturer was aware it was being used too but that having well performing students looked good on his work record too so he was happy to perpetuate the lie.

We are going to sell our international reputation down the swanny if this continues and there will be consequences for employment and investment here. The only people benefiting from the current system are lazy lecturers unwilling to actually teach and challenge their students and yet want a good performance record in their exam students and not have the boat rocked in their cosy pensionable jobs.

UCDVet · 16-09-2014 05:28PM

The_Captain wrote: »

1-bed apartment is a funny name to give your penis

To clarify, my penis is tiny, but it's name is 'McLovin'.
My 1-bedroom apartment is also quite small though.

Zubeneschamali · 16-09-2014 05:48PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I think it is reasonable to expect things to jump in university. Didnt really happen.

Doesn't really happen anywhere -staff are generally more focussed on research, not teaching. Most have no qualifications in teaching whatsoever.

Peist2007 · 16-09-2014 06:15PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Doesn't really happen anywhere -staff are generally more focussed on research, not teaching. Most have no qualifications in teaching whatsoever.

But if i joined Microsoft tomorrow i'd expect those there to teach someone like myself starting out. Not being qualified to teach isnt a free pass actually. Non-teachers are teaching in workplaces all around the world right now. I did it myself today. If it is the area you are professionally qualified in then it should naturally follow that you can impart some wisdom on it. Especially if you are an actual lecturer.

shruikan2553 · 16-09-2014 06:18PM

Those ratings are great and all but how did they measure the quality of teaching?

The_Valeyard · 16-09-2014 06:28PM

Someone said that Germany does not have any universities on the list........they seem to be doing just fine.

F**k that list.

full_irish · 16-09-2014 06:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I studied in a course that has at least 99% graduate employment rate every year since 1994. I studied in Aberdeen. A first class honour degree from any university is more valuable than a second class honour degree from Cambridge. My profession (pharmacy) is so far ahead in the UK compared to Ireland. It is not even funny.

R G WHO???

smash · 16-09-2014 06:42PM

Paddy Cosgrave must be creaming his pants that Trinity are still top. For people who don't know him, he's the founder of The Summit Dublin and stated in an interview that he'd hire someone who got a lower grade from Trinity over someone who got a top grade from another college because it means more.

RDM_83 again · 16-09-2014 06:53PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The reason the Irish colleges are falling is down to a lack of money. The quality of teaching in an institution is almost irrelevant to these rankings - most weight goes on the research output and repution of the university.

Since Irish universities have had their research funding slashed, and there is basically no standard career path for academics in Ireland, unlike the tenure track system in the USA, the reputation of Irish universities is dropping.

Here is an example of the real reason Irish universities are falling down the rankings. Just remember, rankings have almost nothing to do with the quality of education you get from a university, be it good, bad or indifferent.

At a guess its also because Irish Universities might be less ruthless than some of those in the UK, I've a friend doing a post-doc in one of the top 5 and he was talking the last time he was home about how staff will get the sack if in 2 years they aren't completely self funding (with very very little wiggle room), and how as a post-grad and that happens to one of your bosses your pretty fcuked. I'm not sure anyone should pay too much attention to the rankings to select a university if your under-grad and even if your a post-grad there can be negatives.
I've spent time in TCD, UCD and NUIG doing various stuff and though it might label me as a snob TCD did seem to take things a lot more serious than the other two, NUIG while it had great staff didn't even have anonymous marking when I was there :rolleyes:

suicide_circus · 16-09-2014 06:59PM

The standards in lecturing have really taken a dive. I sat in on a friends business lecture in DIT for the laugh there about 6 months back having not been in a lecture theatre in years. The "lecturer" stood there, and I shiit you not, wearing a BASEBALL CAP and gazing at the floor, mumbled incoherently through the notes (available online) word for word. He did not take questions. He did not pose questions. It was surreal and would have been comical had it not been such an absolute thundering disgrace.
Spoke to my friend and her classmates after, this guy wasnt even their worst lecturer - at least he showed up! Any complaints they made to the college via the SU or individually were met with arrogance and disdain.

Irish universities plummet in rankings; 4 UK institutions in top 5

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