Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 05:56PM

evo2000 wrote: »

Im saying in general, you re taking your facts from a non neutral source...in this case the horses mouth has a tendency to lie and be very cloak and dagger in alot of its dealings.

Sure but this is a case of finding out what restrictions the Israeli state is imposing upon Gaza, its not so much a question of trying to find out what their line of argument is, its literally about finding out what exact products are restricted.

Tuisceanch · 20-08-2014 05:57PM

Nodin wrote: »

Going from his first post in the thread, he's arguing for the sake of it, hence I've largely been leaving him to it.

Yes as he has just confirmed himself. I believe he also wants to challenge the emotional content of the thread and argue on the grounds of 'Real Politik' as he sees it. Just my opinion though and it's not a stance without merit and interest.

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:01PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Sure but this is a case of finding out what restrictions the Israeli state is imposing upon Gaza, its not so much a question of trying to find out what their line of argument is, its literally about finding out what exact products are restricted.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

Id say thats where that argument comes from, how true it is i dont know.

I certainly would put it past em tho..

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:07PM

WakeUp wrote: »

yeah about that. why would such a thing render the situation far worse? explain that to me..also why is Bibi so unnerved about ending up in the dock of the ICC..why? if the Israeli government have a case to answer should they not have to answer it. and if the answer to that is no, then why?...

If you put Israeli citizens in the dock for actions during Gaza, without dealing with the underlying conflict, its a bit like dragging Sinn Fein activists through the British prison service during the troubles - you haven't dealt with the source conflict which leads those people to the circumstances they are in, you haven't demonstrated the reciprocity necessary for any justice system, and you run the risk of being seen as a partisan entity in the conflict. For the Israelis is a case of 'how come our guys get arrested but theirs don't' and adds another reason for Israel to not give a damn about Western opinion in their actions.

In short, realpolitik, or the same reason none of the Para's involved in Bloody Sunday have been pursued.

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:09PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If you put Israeli citizens in the dock for actions during Gaza, without dealing with the underlying conflict, its a bit like dragging Sinn Fein activists through the British prison service during the troubles - you haven't dealt with the source conflict which leads those people to the circumstances they are in, you haven't demonstrated the reciprocity necessary for any justice system, and you run the risk of being seen as a partisan entity in the conflict. For the Israelis is a case of 'how come our guys get arrested but theirs don't' and adds another reason for Israel to not give a damn about Western opinion in their actions.

In short, realpolitik, or the same reason none of the Para's involved in Bloody Sunday have been pursued.

Maybe gaza will get really strong, and will hunt down 90 year old ex-israel soldiers.

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:09PM

evo2000 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza

Id say thats where that argument comes from, how true it is i dont know.

I certainly would put it past em tho..

Well that is a reference to Israeli acts during the initial blockade period up until 2010, when it certainly seems plausible that some kind of calorie counting was used, goodness knows other restrictions on food were certainly put in. My point would simply be that I don't think food imports have been restricted since the middle of 2010.

RustyNut · 20-08-2014 06:10PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

So in 2010 they decided to start lying about food imports for some reason, despite having previously been quite explicit about restricting them?

It took a 3 year court battle to get the information.
What secrets are the keeping about the treatment of the Gaza prisoners today?
I mean they are well known for their honesty.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/13005

Wikileaks has published diplomatic cables revealing that Israel told US officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy “on the brink of collapse”.

Israel's Defense Ministry has denied that the document, ordered by a Security-Political Cabinet decision in September 2007, was ever used. However, then Defense Minister Matan Vilnai has expressly stated that 106 trucks—the exact number prescribed by the presentation—were carrying food into Gaza during the time of the siege.

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:11PM

evo2000 wrote: »

Maybe gaza will get really strong, and will hunt down 90 year old ex-israel soldiers.

Maybe, but perhaps they might take a cue from us and the Brits, let the scum of one hand wash the scum of the other - its been unpleasant, but it has been effective for the North.

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:12PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well that is a reference to Israeli acts during the initial blockade period up until 2010, when it certainly seems plausible that some kind of calorie counting was used, goodness knows other restrictions on food were certainly put in. My point would simply be that I don't think food imports have been restricted since the middle of 2010.

What s the point in restricting food? and how the can you agree with it? its just pure badness to keep people on the verge of starvation and is nazi-like

Tuisceanch · 20-08-2014 06:12PM

Breaking news | Israeli army assassinates the child and the wife of Mohammed Aldif, the General Commander of Al-Qassam Brigades.

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:13PM

RustyNut wrote: »

It took a 3 year court battle to get the information.
What secrets are the keeping about the treatment of the Gaza prisoners today?
I mean they are well known for their honesty.

Which seems to confirm earlier suspcions about calorie counting prior to the middle of 2010, but I'm just not convinced that food import restrictions are happening today without someone letting us know, I mean its a pretty hard thing to hide.

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:15PM

evo2000 wrote: »

What s the point in restricting food? and how the can you agree with it? its just pure badness to keep people on the verge of starvation and is nazi-like

I don't, I didn't before 2010 and I don't now when there appears to be no such restriction. I imagine the point is the same point behind these rather disproportionate responses to Gaza, vengeance and malice.

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:16PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Maybe, but perhaps they might take a cue from us and the Brits, let the scum of one hand wash the scum of the other - its been unpleasant, but it has been effective for the North.

You ve really odd logic.

Ignorant etc. · 20-08-2014 06:18PM

Up the IDF!

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-08-2014 06:18PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

OK firstly, I don't eat lasagne and secondly lets stay on topic shall we?

Stay on topic? You are trying your hardest to deflect to another topic :pac:

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:20PM

evo2000 wrote: »

You ve really odd logic.

But do you not remember the detail of the good Friday Agreement? All political prisoners released, including those involved in paramilitary organizations, these were not all charming individuals by any means. I expect a similar agreement will be necessary for Israel and Palestine, Israel won't be able to pursue kidnappers, rocket crews, cross border raiders, Palestine won't be able to pursue zealous artillery commanders, jet pilots, patrol members who used human shields. This is the problem is making peace, you have to make peace with people you hate and you hate you right back.

RustyNut · 20-08-2014 06:22PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Which seems to confirm earlier suspcions about calorie counting prior to the middle of 2010, but I'm just not convinced that food import restrictions are happening today without someone letting us know, I mean its a pretty hard thing to hide.

Why was this ever an acceptable way to treat the population of Gaza? What were they being punished for?

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:22PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

But do you not remember the detail of the good Friday Agreement? All political prisoners released, including those involved in paramilitary organizations, these were not all charming individuals by any means. I expect a similar agreement will be necessary for Israel and Palestine, Israel won't be able to pursue kidnappers, rocket crews, cross border raiders, Palestine won't be able to pursue zealous artillery commanders, jet pilots, patrol members who used human shields. This is the problem is making peace, you have to make peace with people you hate and you hate you right back.

The problem is does israel want peace with gaza, or does it want peace without gaza?

A Dub in Glasgo · 20-08-2014 06:23PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Up the IDF!

Up where?

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:23PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Why was this ever an acceptable way to treat the population of Gaza? What were they being punished for?

If your looking for someone who thinks that that was acceptable I'm afraid you'll have to keep looking - I'm not here with the intention of fawningly excusing each and every abuse done by the Israeli state.

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:25PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Why was this ever an acceptable way to treat the population of Gaza? What were they being punished for?

What it does show is that Israel is pro mass punishment

WakeUp · 20-08-2014 06:27PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

If you put Israeli citizens in the dock for actions during Gaza, without dealing with the underlying conflict, its a bit like dragging Sinn Fein activists through the British prison service during the troubles - you haven't dealt with the source conflict which leads those people to the circumstances they are in, you haven't demonstrated the reciprocity necessary for any justice system, and you run the risk of being seen as a partisan entity in the conflict. For the Israelis is a case of 'how come our guys get arrested but theirs don't' and adds another reason for Israel to not give a damn about Western opinion in their actions.

In short, realpolitik, or the same reason none of the Para's involved in Bloody Sunday have been pursued.

With all due respect comparing Sinn Fein activists to a standing army, under instruction from their government, who might be responsible for war crimes perpetrated against a civilian population is ridiculous. that analogy doesnt work. the Israeli government shouldnt be held accountable if they have a case to answer because what realpolitik. that doesnt work either. not only do the Israelis apparently not care about western opinion they dont care about international law. I think youre making excuses. ICC jurisdiction opens up Hamas to scrutiny aswell. if the IDF and Israeli government are responsible for war crimes should the people responsible be brought to justice?...

Ignorant etc. · 20-08-2014 06:31PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Up where?

Forever!

IDF, best army in the world! May the IDF always be there to protect the good people of Israel from terrorist onslaught. IDF, I salute you!

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:34PM

WakeUp wrote: »

With all due respect comparing Sinn Fein activists to a standing army, under instruction from their government, who might be responsible for war crimes perpetrated against a civilian population is ridiculous. that analogy doesnt work. the Israeli government shouldnt be held accountable if they have a case to answer because what realpolitik. that doesnt work either. not only do the Israelis apparently not care about western opinion they dont care about international law. I think youre making excuses. ICC jurisdiction opens up Hamas to scrutiny aswell. if the IDF and Israeli government are responsible for war crimes should the people responsible be brought to justice?...

And how many British government officials or British army officers have we brought to justice for outrages in the North? Do you think they didn't happen? Do we not have a case in the ICC? The reality is that such pursuits were put aside by both sides in exchange for peace and I suspect that is the best course of action in pursuing a peace between Israel and Palestine too.

Tuisceanch · 20-08-2014 06:41PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Forever!

IDF, best army in the world! May the IDF always be there to protect the good people of Israel from terrorist onslaught. IDF, I salute you!

By Athena Yenko | July 27, 2014 1:09 PM EST
Israeli women are redefining the meaning of Gaza Strip as they post naked photos of them to boost IDF soldiers' morale.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/560606/20140727/gaza-strip-love-idf-girls.htm#.U_TdtWMmboY

Maybe you'd like to expose your bits to express your love for the IDF?

There are many of your kindred spirit expressing their humanity on this page too

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182026#.U_TX22MmboY

Perhaps you could befriend them on Facebook?

On reflection they seem like a bunch of idiots so maybe you'd best steer clear?

evo2000 · 20-08-2014 06:46PM

Tuisceanch wrote: »

By Athena Yenko | July 27, 2014 1:09 PM EST
Israeli women are redefining the meaning of Gaza Strip as they post naked photos of them to boost IDF soldiers' morale.

http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/560606/20140727/gaza-strip-love-idf-girls.htm#.U_TdtWMmboY

Maybe you'd like to expose your bits to express your love for the IDF?

There are many of your kindred spirit expressing their humanity on this page too

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182026#.U_TX22MmboY

Perhaps you could befriend them on Facebook?

hahahaha

Irish Praetorian · 20-08-2014 06:51PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Forever!

IDF, best army in the world! May the IDF always be there to protect the good people of Israel from terrorist onslaught. IDF, I salute you!

Thank you for taking the baton of pro-Israeli nutjob from me, enjoy

Ignorant etc. · 20-08-2014 07:26PM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Thank you for taking the baton of pro-Israeli nutjob from me, enjoy

Yyyyeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh baby!

The I, the I, the IDF!

Fiolina · 20-08-2014 07:35PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Yyyyeeeeaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh baby!

The I, the I, the IDF!

Apt username

bumper234 · 20-08-2014 07:36PM

Ignorant etc. wrote: »

Up the IDF!

Apt username

Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Israel - Palestine Conflict. Mod note in OP - updated 1st August