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Life after death?

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Comments

  • #152
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    What is your moral compass then? It's easy to be smart and just dismiss it but if you want to foist that view on the world then maybe you should also endeavor to explain what moral views people should hold to themselves and the rest of humanity. If you just wilt and die like a plant than why not simply turn on each other and kill each other? No consequence and sure it's darkness in the end.

    A lot of clever people like to be clever and tell people there is nothing afterward without thinking what fills the void.

    I find this belief that people can only behave ethically if they are brainwashed by the idea of good or bad consequences after death completely bizarre! Particulary since the reverse often happens via acting out on their interpretations of what their god 'wants' leading to war, terrorism etc.


  • #153
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Calibos wrote: »
    Everyone living and dead had a common frame of reference for what it's like when we are dead. The 14 billion years before we were alive. Why is it so hard for so many people to make the mental connection between the two?
    Well... I was never altogether convinced by this argument TBH(and I would be very much 99% that death is the end). One might argue from the angle that your consciousness didn't exist for the 14 billion years previously. There was no continuity of what is you. But since you formed something "new" has existed in the universe and that new thing may survive in a form afterwards.

    Another possibility is an unconnected to the you of now consciousness may exist in the future and may have existed in the past. A kind of reincarnation minus the continuation. Another being may look out on the world and feel like "you". Given both the size and age and potential lifespan of the universe that might be a possibility, albeit rare. If consciousness is an illusion of the brain then it's possible that illusion might be repeated. I mean you aren't the you of when you were five. Nigh on the majority of your cells have been replaced, your brain and body have changed radically yet you still anchor as "you". Hell you go into a deep sleep or even a coma and you come back anchored as you, the ghost in the machine.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #154
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Well you did compare death to moving to Australia. Let's be factual about that:

    You could do with learning the difference between "compare" and "analogy".

    However no, the text you quoted was not a comparison between death and moving to Australia. It was the contrast between two different forms of separation.

    So you could do with learning the difference between "compare" and "contrast" too. :-)

    This off topic linguistic lesson has been brought to you by someone who is entirely unlike, so not comparable to but contrasted too, an Orange. Wohoo.
    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    Meh. The human being is so complex in its creation and function that I cannot simply believe that physical death is the end of our consciousness.

    Complexity is subjective though. You seem to think that complexity is a thing and of itself. It really is not. As with all subjectivity it differs from person to person. For example the majority of my family find Calculus to be complex. I simply do not.

    Even if it were so however, complexity is not evidence of an after life. Just the emotional explanation for why you want to believe there is an after life.
    Birroc wrote: »
    Nozzferrahttoo is much too intelligent for Boards and especially AH. I do love his posts though.

    Thank you. If it makes you feel any better I do not actually generally read and/or write on After Hours. If you see me in After Hours it is usually because I received a PM or email from another user who asked me to specifically come and join a given thread.

    It seems I have something of a fan base you see :-) Im not proud :P


  • #155
    Liberalbrehon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    There is life after death. It is called legacy. Robin Williams left a legacy. Adam Smith left a legacy. Augustus left a legacy.
    If you live your life because of fear of what doesn't come after death, it is sad. Live life to give back what you took.
    Those nut jobs in M.E killing people etc because they believe they are fulfilling God's work and will be given joys in heaven. That's the perverse end of the spectrum of believing in the afterlife.
    Afterlife is the family you leave behind if you can, the connections that continue, the thoughts and memories that others retain etc.
    Morality is treating others like you would like to be treated (unless you are a psycho) call it Christian but it was there long before Christian teachings.


  • #156
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    You could do with learning the difference between "compare" and "analogy".

    However no, the text you quoted was not a comparison between death and moving to Australia. It was the contrast between two different forms of separation.

    So you could do with learning the difference between "compare" and "contrast" too. :-)

    This off topic linguistic lesson has been brought to you by someone who is entirely unlike, so not comparable to but contrasted too, an Orange. Wohoo.

    There's so much I have to learn Nozzferrahtoo!


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  • #157
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    Why won't an ant just wander from the trail and chill out?


  • #158
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Thank you. If it makes you feel any better I do not actually generally read and/or write on After Hours. If you see me in After Hours it is usually because I received a PM or email from another user who asked me to specifically come and join a given thread.

    It seems I have something of a fan base you see :-) Im not proud :P

    What way does that work?

    "nozzferrahhtoo come quickly, some lad has put up a thread about life after death in after hours and we need you to get stuck in and convince people there is no life after death"

    Some people take the internet way too seriously.


  • #159
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    There's so much I have to learn Nozzferrahtoo!

    Me too. Glad to be of service.

    Someone, requoted by Christopher Hitchens but I can not remember who it was, once defined being educated as reaching the point where you realize how much you really do not know. Something that fits into the "Dunning–Kruger Effect" I guess.

    Or wait.... is that the "downing effect"?. 90% sure it is the former but I _always_ mix those two up.

    One of those anyway :-)
    robbiezero wrote: »
    What way does that work?

    "nozzferrahhtoo come quickly, some lad has put up a thread about life after death in after hours and we need you to get stuck in and convince people there is no life after death"

    The one today was more of the format "There is a thread here I would value your input into if you have a few minutes before your holiday."


  • #160
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Adamantium


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    What is your moral compass then? It's easy to be smart and just dismiss it but if you want to foist that view on the world then maybe you should also endeavor to explain what moral views people should hold to themselves and the rest of humanity. If you just wilt and die like a plant than why not simply turn on each other and kill each other? No consequence and sure it's darkness in the end.

    A lot of clever people like to be clever and tell people there is nothing afterward without thinking what fills the void.

    I see the value of religion, but damn your post

    A lot of clever people like to be clever..........how awful, using their supposedly god given gifts to be clever, how awful. It's likely they've done a lot more thinking you will ever give them credit for, or have had to go through struggles that forced their faith to made real and what did they recieve in the end for the struggles in the real world....more suffering.
    They found the value of life itself being intrinsically worthwhile, because they had to fight for it and their moral compass is a lot more finely tuned to the conditions of the world as we all see it in reality.

    Faith is good as platitudes, but never try to make it real, as the facade will be blown forever. Even when I was religious, it all felt a little high horsey and fine/self indulgent for the comfortable like myself, but a little pat on the head for those who were suffering, wasn't what they needed. Not prayers, none of that

    Stop doing what you feel is right, start doing what you know is right.

    From True Detective

    Rustin Cohle: If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward then, brother, that person is a piece of sh*t. And I'd like to get as many of them out in the open as possible. You gotta get together and tell yourself stories that violate every law of the universe just to get through the goddamn day? What's that say about your reality?


  • #161
    CptMackey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭CptMackey


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    What is your moral compass then? It's easy to be smart and just dismiss it but if you want to foist that view on the world then maybe you should also endeavor to explain what moral views people should hold to themselves and the rest of humanity. If you just wilt and die like a plant than why not simply turn on each other and kill each other? No consequence and sure it's darkness in the end.

    A lot of clever people like to be clever and tell people there is nothing afterward without thinking what fills the void.

    This view always annoys me. Are you only moral because you fear retribution in the afterlife?

    That says a lot about you if you are only doing good because of fear. Would you be different if you thought there were no consequences?


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  • #162
    bb1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Marcos Fit Rehearsal wrote: »
    Bit rich to ask people their opinion and then accusing them of foisting that view on the world.

    Some people don't see the absence of life after death as a void, quite the opposite in fact because it makes the time we do have all the sweeter.

    I just dont get it though..like how can there just be nothing. We all put so much work into our lives, all the resources we use, all those years of education, all the money we earned and spent. Whats the point if we all end up just lying in a hole for the rest of eternity. I dont know but to me I just feel like there has to be something after death.


  • #163
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,365 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    CptMackey wrote: »
    That says a lot about you if you are only doing good because of fear. Would you be different if you thought there were no consequences?


    I didn't say anything about me other than I am not religious.

    Why is it I can recognise this vacuum and atheists seem incapable of recognising it?

    Religion does offer people purpose and reassurance which is something that atheism has never offered. All atheism has ever offered is this belief that they are intellectually superior to that dumb majority that follow whatever religion. The arguments are often constructed in a precise way with subtle digs against whatever or whoever the target is. Condescension and dismissal is never far away from my experience of atheists.

    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.


  • #164
    CptMackey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭CptMackey


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    What does it offers? Delusion? False hope? Religion is used to put people down and control them. For instance Christianity offers salvation once you follow a set of arbitrary rules laid down in the stone age. I'll pass


  • #165
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    Yes, it does.

    But is any of it true, that is the important question.


  • #166
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    I just dont get it though..like how can there just be nothing. We all put so much work into our lives, all the resources we use, all those years of education, all the money we earned and spent. Whats the point if we all end up just lying in a hole for the rest of eternity. I dont know but to me I just feel like there has to be something after death.
    Why does their have to be a point? Is there a point to a dog's life? We're just smart animals. We are, to quote Chuck Palanik badly, the same decaying crap as everything else on the planet. We are not special, except in our own opinions.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about me other than I am not religious.

    Why is it I can recognise this vacuum and atheists seem incapable of recognising it?

    Religion does offer people purpose and reassurance which is something that atheism has never offered. All atheism has ever offered is this belief that they are intellectually superior to that dumb majority that follow whatever religion. The arguments are often constructed in a precise way with subtle digs against whatever or whoever the target is. Condescension and dismissal is never far away from my experience of atheists.

    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    I am confused. You say you're not religious, but then you say that religion is necessary to be moral, and that atheist are bad. So if you're not religious what are you?

    And atheism doesn't offer anyone anything, period. There are no claims made by atheists about anything other than the unlikelihood of deities.


  • #167
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    If you're happy to select which belief system to invest in based on their offerings, work away. Sounds daft to me.


  • #168
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    while i like the idea of life after death, i just can't see how it's possible.
    body in the ground/ashes whatever, how can there be anything else?


  • #169
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about me other than I am not religious.

    Why is it I can recognise this vacuum and atheists seem incapable of recognising it?

    Religion does offer people purpose and reassurance which is something that atheism has never offered. All atheism has ever offered is this belief that they are intellectually superior to that dumb majority that follow whatever religion. The arguments are often constructed in a precise way with subtle digs against whatever or whoever the target is. Condescension and dismissal is never far away from my experience of atheists.

    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    I recommend reading what atheism is. Then you will see it is just the belief there is no god. Nothing more, no offering anyone anything. It is only the belief that there is no god.


  • #170
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,964 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    I just dont get it though..like how can there just be nothing. We all put so much work into our lives, all the resources we use, all those years of education, all the money we earned and spent. Whats the point if we all end up just lying in a hole for the rest of eternity. I dont know but to me I just feel like there has to be something after death.

    What makes you think there has to be a point?


  • #171
    Dizzicizzi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭Dizzicizzi


    Not touching that with a bargepole!


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  • #172
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about me other than I am not religious.

    Yet your posts would seem to indicate otherwise. Especially the one where you talk about "There is no morality without a far higher power." and refer in other posts to a "Higher Authority".

    So I am not sure how honest you are being when saying you are not religious. Probably, I fear, as honest as you were being when you created an OP about one topic but then quickly revealed you wanted to talk about an entirely different one.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Why is it I can recognise this vacuum and atheists seem incapable of recognising it

    Because you are wrong. I am not one for the "Argumentum Ad Populum" fallacy but at the same time when you feel you are the only one that sees some argument that a whole large group of people do not see...... it is worth asking oneself if the failure lies with you and not all of them.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Religion does offer people purpose and reassurance which is something that atheism has never offered.

    It invents a purpose based on nothing and assumes it. That is not offering a purpose. That is offering a paper mache cover up of having any purpose. A false purpose is no purpose at all. It is a substitute.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    But I will make the point again - religion does offer people more than atheism in my opinion.

    And Jumping off a cliff offers "more" than sitting on the ground and doing nothing at all. The point being that "more" is not synonymous with "good", "useful", "helpful", "advisable", "credible" or "true".

    What it offers is stories. Stories that we have no reason to think are true. It offers little more than stories. The fiction section of your library also offers stories.

    So what is your point?
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    All atheism has ever offered is this belief that they are intellectually superior to that dumb majority that follow whatever religion.

    This misrepresentation of atheists which you have just pulled out of nowhere appears not to match any "atheist" I have ever met. And I have met many given I am one of the original founding members of Atheist Ireland and I have helped organize, run and maintain numerous Atheism conventions around the world Including Ireland where I am from and Germany where I now live.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Condescension and dismissal is never far away from my experience of atheists.

    As above with the "why can I recognize it and they can not" section I wonder if this is more your fault than theirs. After all you have come into this thread presuming to tell atheists what and how they think, misrepresent them in numerous ways, ignore most replies to you and dodge them, misrepresent yourself and your intention in the OP, and claim you are not religious when you make all the sounds of being religious.

    That YOUR behaviors illicit negative reactions in others likely stems solely from you not them. People will treat you as you treat them and your representation of yourself here in this regard is not likely to result in much civility and decorum from those around you.

    Which of course feeds confirmation bias back into your negative straw man impression of atheists, which feeds back into how you act around and towards them, which in turn creates even more ill will on their part towards you. And so on the circle goes.

    Again when you find a whole group acting in one particular way it never hurts to think "Maybe it is not them, but me".


  • #173
    nc19
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭nc19


    I kinda think (hope) that we just reset when we die and start again.

    think about it ; have you ever had a really strong deja vu?

    I get them all the time. I think its a memory of when I did it the first time.


  • #174
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,369 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    nc19 wrote: »
    I get them all the time. I think its a memory of when I did it the first time.

    There is no evidence what-so-ever to suggest that we have had past lives or that it is the explanation for deja vu.

    There are many strong hypotheses on the subject of deja vu and none of them require we simply make up nonsense in order to substantiate them.

    But alas this is the level of discourse we see often in religious conversation. People attempt to find unexplained things (like deja vu) and act like the lack of explanation for them works as an explanation for something else unsubstantiated.

    Essentially such people, like yourself, are just saying "I have no explanation for X, therefore X is evidence for conclusion Y" which if you think about it, is worse that ridiculous.


  • #175
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    o1s1n wrote: »
    If you're happy to select which belief system to invest in based on their offerings, work away. Sounds daft to me.

    For any given religion which offers stuff, I can make up a new one on the spot which offers double. 72 virgins? No, 144! Infinite afterlife? My religion's afterlife will be infinite with greater cardinality!

    You can't pick a religion based on which one offers most in the afterlife, since it can always be trumped.


  • #176
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

    The one today was more of the format "There is a thread here I would value your input into if you have a few minutes before your holiday."

    Would you not get a kind of "bat signal" or a big red phone for such occasions?

    I thought people came to After Hours to shoot the breeze and have the chat. Never knew it was such an organised pursuit.


  • #177
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,365 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    here in this regard is not likely to result in much civility and decorum from those around you.

    From who? I see you are using the royal "we" there. Who are those around me?

    Don't assume for one moment that everyone here is on your side. Atheists have a habit of being louder than the rest. That is your problem. You are right and the rest are wrong.

    You may be right and so might religions, no one knows.

    As for the rest of your post which is nothing more than a sloppy attempt at those attributes you were criticising me for attaching to many atheists - condescension and dismissal - it's hard to muster up the will to even respond because of the tone of it. It's the usual stuff. Delusion, what's wrong with these people etc etc.

    I do appreciate you saying who you are though. The difference between you and me is that I would not actively go out to form a sect, cult or whatever you want to call it based on any belief I might have. But then i'm neutral and have no great feeling on the issue either way. I just think there should be respect for ALL views and less belittling.

    And honestly I don't have the time to be replying in depth to every single post on boards. Maybe the weekend but not now.


  • #178
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    For any given religion which offers stuff, I can make up a new one on the spot which offers double. 72 virgins? No, 144! Infinite afterlife? My religion's afterlife will be infinite with greater cardinality!

    You can't pick a religion based on which one offers most in the afterlife, since it can always be trumped.

    It would have been nice if you'd included the rest of my post in your quote, you know, the bit where it says 'I think it's daft.'

    Upon reading your post it sounds like I think you can pick a religious based on the greatest return, when that's the opposite of what I said.


  • #179
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I just think there should be respect for ALL views and less belittling.

    Yep, those Aztec religions with the human sacrifice, those don't get enough respect these days.


  • #180
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,923 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I just think there should be respect for ALL views and less belittling.
    .

    Why should people have respect for views if they seem them as damaging or dangerous?

    Some believers in religion think that if they strap a bomb to themselves and detonate in the middle of a heavily populated area, they will have rewards in heaven - should we respect this view?

    I'm completely 'live and let live by the way' - I only have an issue with religions when they start impeding on the rights of others.


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  • #181
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Omackeral wrote: »
    I think after you die it's just the same feeling as you 'felt' before you were born.

    Do you remember what it felt like to be born? Or say, nine months old? If not, why do you expect you'd remember what, if anything, came before that?


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