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Former Boxing Promotor Frank Maloney to undergo gender reassignment surgery

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Again, no argument, no evidence, no logic - just sociological obfuscatory waffle.

    The argument escapes you. You have no argument for your view except that sex is what you are born with and that's it. It is a mechanistic or animalistic view of humanity. It's an impoverished sociology. Live your own logic and abandon the "sociological obfuscatory waffle": what are you doing on the internet? Interacting in a sociological milieu and using a language which had constructed reality? The logic alone approach leads to the gas chambers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    eviltwin wrote: »
    She is a woman as far as I am concerned, she isn't harming anyone and if she is now living the life she feels she should be then best of luck to her.

    I just don't get this.

    The proponents of the theory say there's a distinction between boy and girl and masculine and feminine.

    Yet, you're claiming he's both a biological girl and feminine in terms of social construction.

    The whole thing falls apart because you're trying to have it both ways (pardon the pun). She (which we can, for the sake of argument, call a social construction) is still a man (biologically).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I just don't get this.

    The proponents of the theory say there's a distinction between boy and girl and masculine and feminine.

    Yet, you're claiming he's both a biological girl and feminine in terms of social construction.

    The whole thing falls apart because you're trying to have it both ways (pardon the pun). She (which we can, for the sake of argument, call a social construction) is still a man (biologically).

    He can't get a womb and ovaries but so what? A woman who has a hysterectomy doesn't cease to be a woman because she no longer has a female reproductive system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    eviltwin wrote: »
    He can't get a womb and ovaries but so what? A woman who has a hysterectomy doesn't cease to be a woman because she no longer has a female reproductive system.

    Just like a dude who gets his testicles removed doesnt cease to be a dude.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Spunge wrote: »
    Just like a dude who gets his testicles removed doesnt cease to be a dude.

    If you knew Frank/Kerrie how would you refer to her?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Seriously where are all the puns?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭Spunge


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If you knew Frank/Kerrie how would you refer to her?

    I would use the female words out of respect. Obviously they want to be referred to as female but im just speaking objectively for sake of argument.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43 BarryLyndon


    Kerrie will put the box back into boxing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If you knew Frank/Kerrie how would you refer to her?

    I'd still call her nuts


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's true to say that gender roles exist in society that are socially constructed, where a 'man' and a 'woman' are expected to fulfil certain roles. Nobody can argue against these social constructs.
    Partially. One hand feeds the other. Where do you think these social constructs originated in the first place?
    However, from a biological perspective, people are born with a specific sex,
    Nope science doesn't agree with you. Between "classic" male and female there is an overlap, a grey area. And this can be demonstrated physiologically. Male and female brains differ in a number of organisational ways for a start. You even see this in the range of conditions and how they affect the genders differently. More men are stutterers, left handed on the autistic scale. Women tend to recover better after stroke as many functions aren't as localised in the female brain. Even sensory perception differs. Women have better colour vision and sense of smell in general, men are better at tracking movement. It's a long list. However as I said there is overlap between the two.

    When it comes to gender identity there is another overlap. We all start out as "female" in the womb(physically speaking), a burst of hormone in pregnancy switches on the "male" bit. If that's interrupted or changed even slightly it could cause gender to be less set in the adult. There''s a few theories as to the why and how of it all.

    Nevertheless there are case studies that show that personal gender is very much internal and social conditioning is less in the mix. Intersex children and adults a good example. People who are born with not fully formed or over formed genitals. In the past these poor kids were usually assigned a gender by doctors. So an underdeveloped penis was removed and they were sent out in the world as a girl, yet they would nearly always seek out the gender they felt right in in adulthood.

    Now I'm not dismissing mental illness in some cases as that would be stupid to do so, but given the struggles and the long road so many of these people walked to become who they knew themselves to be I'd reckon the majority are nowhere close to mentally ill.

    TL;DR it's far more nature than nurture.
    Should dentists look at the animal kingdom and conclude that people shouldn't bother to brush their teeth?
    Maybe they should :D One thing that's noticeable about ancient human remains is how few cavities they have and how uncrowded their teeth tend to be. A dentist in the paleolithic would be twiddling their thumbs waiting for clients and orthodontists would be near unemployable. Their diet and lifestyle and resultant mouth bacteria and environment was far better for dental health than ours. Put it another way, wolves don't get cavities or plaque, yet they're pimping dental doggie chews on TV...

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Good for her.

    His wife??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    I presume it's possible to be transgender and homophobic?

    lol

    Mrs Garrison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    *sigh*

    No, being transgender is not a mental illness, and a growing body of scientific evidence shows that it is something physical from birth, for example:

    Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
    Study In Transsexuals: Significant Genetic Link To Gender Identity

    As well as that, most major psychological associations will tell you that being transgender is not a mental illness, and warns against treating it as if it were.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Would it not have been simpler for him to change his name to "Francis"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭KungPao


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If you knew Frank/Kerrie how would you refer to her?
    Frerrie?

    Kerank?


  • Posts: 32,956 [Deleted User]


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Would it not have been simpler for him to change his name to "Francis"?

    That's still a man's name. Frances is the female version.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 152 ✭✭LiveIsLife


    Well this is an unexpected story. Call me closed minded if you want, but I don't think I'll ever accept transgenders as normal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭fran17


    anyone notice the boards.ie advertising is showing a link to a web site where you can meet and date Asian ladyboys lol


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    fran17 wrote: »
    anyone notice the boards.ie advertising is showing a link to a web site where you can meet and date Asian ladyboys lol

    I think that's related to what you search for on Google chief....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭fran17


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    I think that's related to what you search for on Google chief....

    no no I much prefer the European type.but frank moloney would be stretching it;)


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  • Posts: 25,917 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Links234 wrote: »
    *sigh*

    No, being transgender is not a mental illness, and a growing body of scientific evidence shows that it is something physical from birth, for example:
    How does it being physical prevent it from being an illness?
    Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
    Study In Transsexuals: Significant Genetic Link To Gender Identity

    As well as that, most major psychological associations will tell you that being transgender is not a mental illness, and warns against treating it as if it were.
    Psychological associations have said and done a lot through the last couple of centuries, it's easy to pick the bit one likes and say that it's obviously right while all the rest is guff.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Links234 wrote: »
    *sigh*

    No, being transgender is not a mental illness, and a growing body of scientific evidence shows that it is something physical from birth, for example:

    Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
    Study In Transsexuals: Significant Genetic Link To Gender Identity

    As well as that, most major psychological associations will tell you that being transgender is not a mental illness, and warns against treating it as if it were.

    Well, you've placed yourself in a bottomless pit of quandaries right there.

    You claim it's something physical from birth, demonstrated in brain scans - we could say exactly the same about schizophrenia, from which a body of evidence suggests it begins from birth and can be seen on brain scans.

    It's only your opinion that's not called it a mental illness, not objectivity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭NomadicGray


    fran17 wrote: »
    no no I much prefer the European type.but frank moloney would be stretching it;)

    I dont think he'll be doing the strectching.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    Well, you've placed yourself in a bottomless pit of quandaries right there.

    You claim it's something physical from birth, demonstrated in brain scans - we could say exactly the same about schizophrenia, from which a body of evidence suggests it begins from birth and can be seen on brain scans.

    It's only your opinion that's not called it a mental illness, not objectivity.

    Synaesthesia would show up on scans too - that's not an illness but a curious phenomenon. Nice try with the analogy to crazy though.

    Transgender people don't live in a world of unimaginable mental torment in which they are a danger to themselves and others. They simply want their minds and bodies and souls to match up. It's Links' experience and research that says it's not a mental illness, which is a darn sight more realistic than your "objective" opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,853 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    I dont think he'll be doing the strectching.

    Not in those heels anyway!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,516 ✭✭✭wazky


    Does this mean he will have a valid excuse to be walking demon at a certain time in a month?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Omackeral wrote: »
    That's still a man's name. Frances is the female version.

    Will his boxing name be Frances "the geezer" Maloney?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    According to the APA:
    A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.

    So no, it's not 'just my opinion', even the term Gender Identity Disorder has been removed from the DSMV. It is no longer considered a mental illness/disorder across the board.

    And you know what?

    These kinds of threads are not fun for me. I get a sense of exasperation and dread when something like this pops up, because mostly they're just somewhere for certain folks to air just how disgusting they find transgender people, to make jokes about us, call us crazy, and all sorts of things. And of course, some people just have to soapbox about how THEY know so much better than the doctors, psychologists, researchers and anyone else who is an authority on these matters, not to mention trans people themselves. And the sad thing is, there's so very, very few trans people left on boards to even defend ourselves.

    Just once, I'd like to see a thread posted about someone who's transgender where people have something nice to say. That'd be nice. But we've got a hell of a long way to go it seems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    I like you Links. I think a LOT of people here like you too.

    love,

    M


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭homemadecider


    Links234 wrote: »
    According to the APA: A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.

    One of the quotes from Frank Maloney at the start of this thread is ""I can't keep living in the shadows, that is why I am doing what I am today. Living with the burden any longer would have killed me"... does that not sound like a person in profound distress because of their gender identify??


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