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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #2972
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,660 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Kertrada wrote: »
    I think we should put all the Hamas and Israeli supporters on this forum in a big padded room and let them all battle it out :)

    Are you keeping a running list of names?


  • #2973
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Hamas and Israel both slaughter civilians, making both evil. Hamas does so out of anger and desperation at crimes committed by Israel, while Israel does so to enable itself to continue committing said crimes. This tips the scaled of evil far more in Israel's direction.

    One's motivation for evil acts determines just how evil those acts are.

    I thought Hamas wanted to wipe Israel and the Jews off the face of the earth, and if they had the means, that's exactly what they would do.

    How evil is it to convince your own people to strap explosives to themselves and board a bus full of innocent people.

    How evil is it to use human shields.

    How evil is it to continue to launch rocket after rocket after rocket at innocent people.

    You're dead right when you mention motivation for evil acts


  • #2974
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    fedor.2. wrote: »

    How evil is it to convince your own people to strap explosives to themselves and board a bus full of innocent people.

    How evil is it to use human shields.

    How evil is it to continue to launch rocket after rocket after rocket at innocent people.

    You're dead right when you mention motivation for evil acts

    How evil is it to kill 1,800 civilians?


  • #2975
    fedor.2.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,944 ✭✭✭fedor.2.


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    How evil is it to kill 1,800 civilians?

    It's pretty evil


  • #2976
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    bumper234 wrote: »
    When did Israel make a declaration of war? If it's a war why do Israel not follow the rules of the Geneva convention?
    Its quite simple. If you have the support of Washington then the Geneva Convention doesn't apply.


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  • #2977
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    I thought Hamas wanted to wipe Israel and the Jews off the face of the earth, and if they had the means, that's exactly what they would do.

    How evil is it to convince your own people to strap explosives to themselves and board a bus full of innocent people.

    How evil is it to use human shields.

    How evil is it to continue to launch rocket after rocket after rocket at innocent people.

    You're dead right when you mention motivation for evil acts

    Their motivation is the return of property stolen from them. The acts are evil, the motivation is not.
    Israels motivation is to keep stolen property and to enable itself to continue stealing more with impunity. Their actions AND motivations are evil.


  • #2978
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    What exactly does Hamas do?

    Quit a lot of social work.


  • #2979
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    "I can't understand how people sit back and say self defense.I can't take the language,I can't take the propaganda,i can't take the mantra that Israel has the right against self defense.Against whom????Against innocent civilians?"

    Anyway you can watch it yourself and decry her credentials and accuse her of bias and blame Hamas and argue over things you never bothered to learn about but you thought you'd while away a couple of hours before you go and wash the cat.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqzCWJEqjjI


  • #2980
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    ,i can't take the mantra that Israel has the right against self defense.Against whom????Against innocent civilians?"


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqzCWJEqjjI

    Against Hamas, the guys firing the rockets? And who are committed to wiping Israel off the map? She's probably heard of them.

    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Anyway you can watch it yourself and decry her credentials and accuse her of bias and blame Hamas and argue over things you never bothered to learn about

    Easy there, genius. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard for pasting a YouTube link.


  • #2981
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Quit a lot of social work.

    They make excellent tunnels too. No civilians allowed inside during bombing raids though; that would be careless.


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  • #2982
    eeepaulo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭eeepaulo


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    They make excellent tunnels too. No civilians allowed inside during bombing raids though; that would be careless.

    Israel killed 1800 cilvilians

    Road deaths in Ireland this weekend = 5

    Keep up your mantra.


  • #2983
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Gazas survivors now face a battle for water, shelter and power:

    The biggest waste-water treatment plant in Gaza City isn’t the sweetest smelling place at the best of times. But today the abnormally acrid stench and large swarms of flies testified to the sewage stagnating in its lagoons. War has stopped the plant doing the job it was built for: limiting the pollution of the Mediterranean by semi-treating the 40 million litres a day it pumps into the sea.

    Gaza, which enjoyed its first full day of peace yesterday, has lost 1,814 people, the vast majority civilians killed as they hid from Israeli bombardments. Its ill-equipped hospitals hold thousands of patients, many suffering from horrific injuries.

    But Israel’s destruction of homes and infrastructure will ensure that the possibility of Gaza having a normal existence is a distant prospect.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gazas-survivors-now-face-a-battle-for-water-shelter-and-power-9650347.html


  • #2984
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Hello? Hello? Hello?

    Is there anybody in there?
    Just nod if you can hear me.
    Is there anyone at home?
    Come on now
    I hear you're feeling down.
    Well I can ease your pain
    Get you on your feet again.
    Relax.
    I'll need some information first.
    Just the basic facts.
    Can you show me where it hurts?

    There is no pain you are receding
    A distant ship smoke on the horizon.
    You are only coming through in waves.
    Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.
    When I was a child I had a fever
    My hands felt just like two balloons.
    Now I've got that feeling once again
    I can't explain you would not understand
    This is not how I am.
    I have become comfortably numb.

    O.K.
    Just a little pinprick.
    There'll be no more, ah!
    But you may feel a little sick.
    Can you stand up?
    I do believe it's working, good.
    That'll keep you going through the show
    Come on it's time to go.

    There is no pain you are receding
    A distant ship, smoke on the horizon.
    You are only coming through in waves.
    Your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying.
    When I was a child
    I caught a fleeting glimpse
    Out of the corner of my eye.
    I turned to look but it was gone
    I cannot put my finger on it now
    The child is grown,
    The dream is gone.
    I have become comfortably numb.
    Songwriters: WATERS, ROGER/GILMOUR, DAVID JON
    Comfortably Numb lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc.


  • #2985
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    Interesting story in The Week. Public opinion has been changing over here in the past 10 days.

    http://theweek.com/article/index/265798/the-3-big-lies-supporting-israels-war-in-gaza


  • #2986
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    They make excellent tunnels too. No civilians allowed inside during bombing raids though; that would be careless.

    Would you recommend civilians to occupy tunnels that Israel promised to destroy during said "bombing raids"?

    Think before you post please.


  • #2987
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Every single rocket from Hamas is indiscriminately used to kill innocent men, women and children. Israel is dealing with a nihilistic enemy in a densely packed urban areas that uses its people to defend its weapon - they can try to discriminately target areas

    I like most people, condemn and deplore the firing of rockets into Israel and the targeting of Israeli civilians. It should not happen and it should never happen. The death of any civilian, Israeli or Palestinian is tragic and should never happen. The death of one is one too many. So it is impossible to ignore or even justify, the killing of nearly 1900 Palestinian civilians and the 9000+ who have been wounded. In the light of such carnage, the civilised world must ask itself. Is the IDF justified in killing and wounding nearly 11000 people? Or did they cross the line into indiscriminate brutality?

    speedboatchase wrote: »
    The alternative for Israel, however, is to not fire at all and allow Hamas to continue firing rockets at its population.

    No, the alternative for Israel is to join the civilised world and to learn the art of dialogue and diplomacy. I mean how else can it uphold its claim, that it is a bastion of democracy in the Middle East? Isn't a democratic, civilised nation supposed to lead by example? Doesn't the primitive savagery displayed by its army in Gaza, run contrary to the actions of a civilised democracy?

    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Ideally Hamas would realise that its rockets are incredibly useless wastes of money that could better spent after building an economy in Gaza. But if they fire rockets, they will receive retaliation.

    The Americans have given the IDF the most hi-tech military kit on the planet. But why would they use it effectively to take out Hamas members, when they can destroy an entire neighbourhood. Much better to invoke 'Hannibal' than to use state of the art target acquisition and eliminate a specific enemy. Much better to take out power supplies, water & sewage treatment plants, food markets, hospitals, ambulances, medical staff, UN schools, UN civilians and innocent civilians. Than to make a concerted effort in avoiding civilian casualties.
    speedboatchase wrote: »
    It is tragic that innocent lives have been lost in Gaza and there have been some truly heartbreaking incidents.

    'Collateral damage' is apologist speak for defending the indefensible. A phrase that was invented to justify the killing of the innocent.
    speedboatchase wrote: »
    articulate for me how a nation should respond to rockets being fired in a manner that won't result in any collateral damage whatsoever? It's very, very, very difficult.

    Maybe they should look at the reason for their problems, problems they themselves have created. Netanyahu has always been an enemy of peace and compromise with the Palestinian people and to repeat what I said earlier....
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    If you think the Israeli government has a genuine interest in peace and conflict resolution, then you are being naive. Netanyahu has been an enemy of peace going right back to the Oslo accords. He is a rejectionist politician who has been a consistent enemy of peace. From green lighting the rapid expansion and aggressive increase in illegal settlements. To his recent blood letting in Gaza. His priority has always been, to maintain his grip on power and keep his Zionist cabinet colleagues happy. Only the Americans can bring the necessary pressure, but looking at John kerry's incompetent diplomacy in recent weeks. I wouldn't hold my breath on a long term sustainable peace being achieved any time soon.


  • #2988
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Here's an interesting piece from Gideon Levy.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/22/israeli_writer_gideon_levy_if_netanyahu

    If you have software which reads the news for you then I'm afraid the website ignores access requests from bots.


  • #2989
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    In this Gaza neighborhood, a possible Israeli war crime:

    Residents of the Gaza neighborhood of Khuzaa say they were blocked from fleeing during days of intense Israeli shelling last month. Human Rights Watch says the incident appears to be a war crime.

    KHAN YOUNIS, GAZA STRIP

    "It had been three nightmare nights. Faten Qdeih and her six children had fled Israeli shelling of their home, but were trapped by tanks and soldiers that shot at the crowd trying to escape. Wherever they went, explosions followed.

    And it wasn't over.

    A mortar shell rocked the building where they had taken refuge on the third day. Ms. Qdeih, bleeding from shrapnel, rushed the family into the street. Dodging shells, they ran to another building. It was hit too. Her seven-year-old son Anas dashed outside in fear just as another strike landed. Qdeih followed him and found his lifeless body.

    Her daughters screamed. Dizzy, Qdeih made a heart-wrenching decision: She left her dead son behind and ran with the living. “I would rather I had died than see what I've seen," she said later.

    Qdeih is one of the survivors of the Israeli assault in late July on Khuzaa, a neighborhood on the eastern edge of Khan Younis in southern Gaza, within sight of the Israeli border.

    What unfolded in Khuzaa between July 21 and 25 amounts to a war crime, according to a dozen witnesses interviewed by the Monitor and an independent investigation by Human Rights Watch. HRW calls what happened there – the shelling, a refusal to allow civilians safe passage – an "apparent violation of the laws of war."
    http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0805/In-this-Gaza-neighborhood-a-possible-Israeli-war-crime


  • #2990
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    wretcheddomain wrote: »
    Would you recommend civilians to occupy tunnels that Israel promised to destroy during said "bombing raids"?

    Think before you post please.

    My point is that 800 tons of concrete have been used not to benefit the civilian population or to keep them safe, but to instead ensure useless whack-a-mole guerilla tactics. In any case, the bombing raid aren't to destroy the tunnels, that's done via rigged explosives underground.


  • #2991
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    http://www.herald.ie/news/supervalu-boycotts-israeli-products-30483160.html
    Apologies if already posted.


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  • #2992
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    My point is that 800 tons of concrete have been used not to benefit the civilian population or to keep them safe, but to instead ensure useless whack-a-mole guerilla tactics. In any case, the bombing raid aren't to destroy the tunnels, that's done via rigged explosives underground.
    Most tunnels are used to bring in supplies (and yes, weapons) as Israel have Gaza under siege for years.
    If they're useless why do they need to be blown up?


  • #2993
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    No, the alternative for Israel is to join the civilised world and to learn the art of dialogue and diplomacy. I mean how else can it uphold its claim, that it is a bastion of democracy in the Middle East? Isn't a democratic, civilised nation supposed to lead by example? Doesn't the primitive savagery displayed by its army in Gaza, run contrary to the actions of a civilised democracy?

    How do you have dialogue with a group who's stated aim to wipe you from the fact of the Earth? What do you want Israel to do? And please be realistic here. You can all moan but tell me a realistic aim.

    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    The Americans have given the IDF the most hi-tech military kit on the planet. But why would they use it effectively to take out Hamas members, when they can destroy an entire neighbourhood. Much better to invoke 'Hannibal' than to use state of the art target acquisition and eliminate a specific enemy. Much better to take out power supplies, water & sewage treatment plants, food markets, hospitals, ambulances, medical staff, UN schools, UN civilians and innocent civilians. Than to make a concerted effort in avoiding civilian casualties.

    Are you a military general now? Define "use it effectively", please. By the way, is this response your way of saying that Hamas does not keep its weapons in the vicinity of schools and hospitals? You might be in for a shock.
    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    'Collateral damage' is apologist speak for defending the indefensible. A phrase that was invented to justify the killing of the innocent.

    Nice slogan. It's not used to "justify" the killing of the innocent, it is a military term used to provide context that points out that the killing was unintentional.

    Now, had Hamas killed a civilian with a rocket, that would not be "collateral damage", since that civilian was the intended target.


  • #2994
    Reformed Character
    Closed Accounts Posts: 710 ✭✭✭Reformed Character


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    In any case, the bombing raids aren't to destroy the tunnels,

    That's right, the bombing raids are used to kill defenceless children in hospitals, schools, playing football on the beach!
    Yea, how proud the mouthpieces of the IDF must feel every time a war crime is committed by the Israelis!


  • #2995
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,447 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    This thread is slowly heading down the route of the last one. I'd ask everyone to read to OP of this thread and KEEP IT CIVIL.
    Fair warning.


  • #2996
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »
    I like most people, condemn and deplore the firing of rockets into Israel and the targeting of Israeli civilians. It should not happen and it should never happen. The death of any civilian, Israeli or Palestinian is tragic and should never happen. The death of one is one too many. So it is impossible to ignore or even justify, the killing of nearly 1900 Palestinian civilians and the 9000+ who have been wounded. In the light of such carnage, the civilised world must ask itself. Is the IDF justified in killing and wounding nearly 11000 people? Or did they cross the line into indiscriminate brutality?




    No, the alternative for Israel is to join the civilised world and to learn the art of dialogue and diplomacy. I mean how else can it uphold its claim, that it is a bastion of democracy in the Middle East? Isn't a democratic, civilised nation supposed to lead by example? Doesn't the primitive savagery displayed by its army in Gaza, run contrary to the actions of a civilised democracy?




    The Americans have given the IDF the most hi-tech military kit on the planet. But why would they use it effectively to take out Hamas members, when they can destroy an entire neighbourhood. Much better to invoke 'Hannibal' than to use state of the art target acquisition and eliminate a specific enemy. Much better to take out power supplies, water & sewage treatment plants, food markets, hospitals, ambulances, medical staff, UN schools, UN civilians and innocent civilians. Than to make a concerted effort in avoiding civilian casualties.



    'Collateral damage' is apologist speak for defending the indefensible. A phrase that was invented to justify the killing of the innocent.



    Maybe they should look at the reason for their problems, problems they themselves have created. Netanyahu has always been an enemy of peace and compromise with the Palestinian people and to repeat what I said earlier....

    Well said as usual Corvus.
    Thank you.


  • #2997
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Most tunnels are used to bring in supplies (and yes, weapons) as Israel have Gaza under siege for years.
    If they're useless why do they need to be blown up?

    Because their intentions is to pop up in Israel and kill civilians. You know, as they've been attempting to do for the past few weeks.

    Are you honestly saying that's a better usage for 800 tons of concrete for the people who elected Hamas?


  • #2998
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Reformed Character wrote: »
    That's right, the bombing raids are used to kill defenceless children in hospitals, schools, playing football on the beach!
    Yea, how proud the mouthpieces of the IDF must feel every time a war crime is committed by the Israelis!

    As I said, the only side who are indiscriminate in their tactics is Hamas.

    By the way, since we can agree that Hamas's tactics are indiscriminate, why are you not offended by that?

    You seem angry and claim that Israel's tactics are indiscriminate, but what about Hamas's openly indiscriminate rockets? Is Hamas allowed to be indiscriminate because their rockets are rubbish?


  • #2999
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    WakeUp wrote: »
    In this Gaza neighborhood, a possible Israeli war crime:

    Residents of the Gaza neighborhood of Khuzaa say they were blocked from fleeing during days of intense Israeli shelling last month. Human Rights Watch says the incident appears to be a war crime.

    KHAN YOUNIS, GAZA STRIP

    "It had been three nightmare nights. Faten Qdeih and her six children had fled Israeli shelling of their home, but were trapped by tanks and soldiers that shot at the crowd trying to escape. Wherever they went, explosions followed.

    And it wasn't over.

    A mortar shell rocked the building where they had taken refuge on the third day. Ms. Qdeih, bleeding from shrapnel, rushed the family into the street. Dodging shells, they ran to another building. It was hit too. Her seven-year-old son Anas dashed outside in fear just as another strike landed. Qdeih followed him and found his lifeless body.

    Her daughters screamed. Dizzy, Qdeih made a heart-wrenching decision: She left her dead son behind and ran with the living. “I would rather I had died than see what I've seen," she said later.

    Qdeih is one of the survivors of the Israeli assault in late July on Khuzaa, a neighborhood on the eastern edge of Khan Younis in southern Gaza, within sight of the Israeli border.

    What unfolded in Khuzaa between July 21 and 25 amounts to a war crime, according to a dozen witnesses interviewed by the Monitor and an independent investigation by Human Rights Watch. HRW calls what happened there – the shelling, a refusal to allow civilians safe passage – an "apparent violation of the laws of war."
    http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2014/0805/In-this-Gaza-neighborhood-a-possible-Israeli-war-crime

    But war crimes are notoriously difficult to prove and wouldn't it be just a case that another Goldstone report will be issued and nobody held to account. Israel needs to be charged with committing an 'Act of Aggression' to give any credibility that the international community is going to make a genuine stance or else it will be just another whitewash and the Palestinians will be left to bury their dead and wait for the next excuse Israel manufactures to complete it's mission.


  • #3000
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    ...............

    How evil is it to use human shields.

    ..................


    The human shields thing again?

    You might read this.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91520657&postcount=78


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  • #3001
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    I thought Hamas wanted to wipe Israel and the Jews off the face of the earth, and if they had the means, that's exactly what they would do.

    How evil is it to convince your own people to strap explosives to themselves and board a bus full of innocent people.

    How evil is it to use human shields.

    How evil is it to continue to launch rocket after rocket after rocket at innocent people.

    You're dead right when you mention motivation for evil acts

    How evil is it to hold almost 2 million captive and then be surprised that the military wing of their elected government try to resist.:rolleyes:


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