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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #1862
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    Voltex wrote: »
    So Hamas launches rockets from a school as below


    What should the IDF do? Ignore the rockets? Hamas are purposely leveraging the international media to garner support. Its a classically contrived David and Goliath media stunt.

    Israel's Iron Dome's interceptors have struck down 87% of the Hamas rockets.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/07/economist-explains-12


    By the way, when I was a student in Derry 20 years ago, the RUC station was right beside the college on the Strand Road.

    Also in Derry, the primary and secondary schools at Rosemount on the edge of the Creggan were next door to each other and right beside them was the RUC station, heavily protected by the british army....human shield anyone?


  • #1863
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    hju6 wrote: »
    You said they were banned

    I denied that they were banned. I quoted your article saying that they were, and said he was wrong.
    You denied the use of flechette rounds

    I did not.
    How many children and babies have you killed ?

    One, about eight years old. We were returning fire against a guy with an RPG who shot at us from the far side of the street. Family in an SUV drove right through the middle of the firefight, the first my soldier knew about them was when they drove through his sight in the middle of a .50 cal burst.
    Couldn't you consider another career? Surely killing people to serve the interests of those who don't have your interests at heart must give you food for thought. Maybe not,I don't know,but if not then how do you justify it to yourself? or do you bother?Lot of questions I know but I'm curious but you don't need to answer if you don't want to.

    Ultimately, in a volunteer military, it comes down to trust in your elected civilian leadership that they not send you off somewhere without good cause. In theory, that cause would be in my interest as well, as a national or resident of the nation that military serves.


  • #1864
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Voltex wrote: »
    So Hamas launches rockets from a school as below
    .

    That's IDF footage, on an IDF video, saying that's a school......
    Voltex wrote: »
    Warheads are stamped with "Made in Iran".

    The overwhelming majority are homemade.


  • #1865
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Voltex wrote: »
    Warheads are stamped with "Made in Iran" but cheque book stubs say "Central Bank of Qatar, Saudi, Turkey and Iran".

    Has Turkey joined the AXIS OF EVIL, then? Used to be such a decent secular democracy, a NATO member, associate of israel. But now, given the PM has criticised the one true ( Jewish, theocratic) democracy in the Middle East I suppose you hate it and always have.

    You always have hated turkey. Remember that. You have always been at war with EastAsia.


  • #1866
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I denied that they were banned. I quoted your article saying that they were, and said he was wrong.



    I did not.



    One, about eight years old. We were returning fire against a guy with an RPG who shot at us from the far side of the street. Family in an SUV drove right through the middle of the firefight, the first my soldier knew about them was when they drove through his sight in the middle of a .50 cal burst.



    Ultimately, in a volunteer military, it comes down to trust in your elected civilian leadership that they not send you off somewhere without good cause. In theory, that cause would be in my interest as well, as a national or resident of the nation that military serves.

    You did great in Mosul though. Used to be run by fanatics. Now it's just a paradise.


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  • #1867
    hju6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭hju6


    Voltex wrote: »
    Warheads are stamped with "Made in Iran" but cheque book stubs say "Central Bank of Qatar, Saudi, Turkey and Iran".

    There's no warhead on the rockets, they never explode


  • #1868
    miss tickle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭miss tickle


    shedweller wrote: »
    IF its legal. There's the kicker.
    Is israel behaving in a legal manner here?

    It's not legal, this article by an Israeli gives a background as to how international entities allowed this apartheid to continue for decades (despite contravening international law) without sanctions, while within weeks of the Ukranian conflict, sanctions were imposed on Russia.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/israel-palestine-settlements-1598489-Jul2014/


  • #1869
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    miss tickle wrote: »
    It's not legal, this article by an Israeli gives a background as to how international entities allowed this apartheid to continue for decades (despite contravening international law) without sanctions, while within weeks of the Ukranian conflict, sanctions were imposed on Russia.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/israel-palestine-settlements-1598489-Jul2014/

    Essentially correct.


  • #1870
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,692 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    One, about eight years old. We were returning fire against a guy with an RPG who shot at us from the far side of the street. Family in an SUV drove right through the middle of the firefight

    Imagine that, civilians in a civilian area


    Ultimately, in a volunteer military

    You mean you do not get paid?

    I work for a living in the railway but it is a fecking stretch to say I am a volunteer :confused:


  • #1871
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,447 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Folks, Manic Moran has been kind enough to answer a lot of questions with honesty. He is under no obligation to do so.
    He is not under any investigation here and tbh, the way some of you are addressing him makes it all the more amazing that he is remaining civil to you.
    DO NOT make this personal. Any more digs from any poster will see you thread-banned straight away.
    Get back on topic.


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  • #1872
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    hju6 wrote: »
    This Mosul

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/27767

    Yes, that one. Is there more than one?
    bumper234 wrote: »
    The fact you advocate the use of thermobaric weapons tells me much about you. Flachettes, thermobarics, white phospherous? All crimes against humanity.

    In your opinion. They are legal, they are effective. That's as far as that argument needs to go for a soldier. Arguments about 'if they are nice' are irrelevant, I'm sure nobody has ever said "Thank you for shooting me with a humane .50cal ball round. I feel much better for it." If you can come up with a nice way to kill someone, please let me know. It's reasons like this why wars are best avoided to begin with if possible, they tend to be quite nasty.


  • #1873
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    I work for a living in the railway but it is a fecking stretch to say I am a volunteer :confused:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BvhZ2cGhfk


  • #1874
    Voltex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭Voltex


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    What about that YouTUbe video you advised us to watch showing the secret cache of Hamas which amounted to an arsenal that could launch WW3? What's with these lame comments about 'leveraging international media' and 'David and Goliath media stunt'. The international media has being more than fair to Israel on their campaign careful to repeat the mantra that 'Israel has the right to defend itself' presumably with the intention to hypnotizing people into indifference.
    Ill note your casual ignorance of the video of Hamas firing rockets from a school.

    Vid of IDF in a Mosque


    Im not going to get into the whole argument of how Israel is entitled to defend itself, but any strategy worth its weight will find a point of advantage and leverage it as best they can..in the case of Hamas its the bias of international media attention on their plight.


  • #1875
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Different issue. I was responding to the claim that Israel has been using banned weapons. Of all Israel's faults, that has not been one of them.

    I am unlikely to ever be associated with Israeli actions. I am, however, quite likely to be associated with the use of various weapons, the same rules for which apply to me as to an Israeli soldier. I may as well set the record straight.
    Is israel behaving in a legal manner here? Yes/no. Not rocket science. I follow Chris Hadfield for that.


  • #1876
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    You mean you do not get paid?

    I work for a living in the railway but it is a fecking stretch to say I am a volunteer :confused:

    The term 'Volunteer military' is used to distinguish from a military where the personnel are given no choice as to their participation. (eg one which uses conscripts or draftees)


  • #1877
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Voltex wrote: »
    Ill note your casual ignorance of the video of Hamas firing rockets from a school.

    Vid of IDF in a Mosque
    ..........

    Yet another from the IDF that shows that what the IDF says is true is true. Amazing.


  • #1878
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Yes, that one. Is there more than one?



    In your opinion. They are legal, they are effective. That's as far as that argument needs to go for a soldier. Arguments about 'if they are nice' are irrelevant, I'm sure nobody has ever said "Thank you for shooting me with a humane .50cal ball round. I feel much better for it." If you can come up with a nice way to kill someone, please let me know. It's reasons like this why wars are best avoided to begin with if possible, they tend to be quite nasty.

    I drove a tank in gulf war 1 so yeah i know it's not sunshine and lollipops.


  • #1879
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Voltex wrote: »
    Ill note your casual ignorance of the video of Hamas firing rockets from a school.

    Vid of IDF in a Mosque


    Im not going to get into the whole argument of how Israel is entitled to defend itself, but any strategy worth its weight will find a point of advantage and leverage it as best they can..in the case of Hamas its the bias of international media attention on their plight.


    I noted the video you posted and observed it was a IDF shot video and as noted by another poster how could that be taken seriously. You wouldn't take a video shot by Hamas as proof of anything. So I didn't avoid it,I just didn't think it worth commenting on. But I did ask you twice now for a link to the previous video you mentioned and never got an answer so it's a bit ironic and disingenuous of you to accuse others of the same and now here I am responding to your question. As for your point regarding 'Media Leverage'.How could Hamas possibly exert the influence over the International media as you suggest. Show some examples of extreme bias by mainstream media supporting your assertion and answer the question as to whether mainstream media is emphazing the right of Israel to defend itself. I'm not arguing whether that's right or wrong but rather the point you made about media bias. And I shall watch this video now that you have kindly posted it and see if it lives up to your assertions.


  • #1880
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    A Greedy Algorithm wrote: »
    Where do they hide the captured Israeli soldiers, do they put them down a hole in the ground?

    They should put him on the roof of a hospital


  • #1881
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keS-LDl_ewA



    Senator David Norris speaking in the Senad yesterday.. well said David.


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  • #1882
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    bumper234 wrote: »
    I drove a tank in gulf war 1 so yeah i know it's not sunshine and lollipops.

    7th Armoured?


  • #1883
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Voltex wrote: »
    I think people should spend some time on youtube and look at what the IDF are uncovering in Gaza. There is a video of the IDF entering a Mosque and a school and deep down in the basement is an arsenal worthy of any 3rd World War Lord. And then theres the tunnels. All that cement and building materials have literally gone underground. I have never seen anything like the warren of terror tunnels Hamas have created.

    I for one completely support Israel and the IDF in what they are doing. We look at the pictures on Sky News of the horrors perpetrated by ISIS in Syria and Iraq..yet these guys aren't a million miles away from Hamas in their ideology.
    Voltex wrote: »
    Ill note your casual ignorance of the video of Hamas firing rockets from a school.

    Vid of IDF in a Mosque


    Well I think you over egged the pudding in your assertion about the arsenal. And really how can you accept blindly that it wasn't planted for propaganda purposes and the shaft could well be a shelter.It's a biased source in the strictest sense of the term and doesn't manage to prove anything you claim anyway. And by the way I don't assert that Hamas don't do these things but when this is all the proof you can muster to support your assertions then I begin to feel you are clutching at straws to defend the indefensible.


  • #1884
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    donegal__road wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keS-LDl_ewA



    Senator David Norris speaking in the Senad yesterday.. well said David.

    It just highlights how cowardly and spineless the rest of them are.Very impressive oration.


  • #1885
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Any word yet on why Hamas broke the ceasefire today, as pointed out by the United Nations?


  • #1886
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Any word yet on why Hamas broke the ceasefire today, as pointed out by the United Nations?

    You have link for that? As you have in the past in this thread, purposefully misrepresented what was said by UNRWA repeatedly, as such anything you say is worthless.


  • #1887
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,547 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    wes wrote: »
    You have link for that? As you have in the past in this thread, purposefully misrepresented what was said by UNRWA repeatedly, as such anything you say is worthless.


    Will this do.

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/un-condemns-hamas-for-breaking-72-hour-gaza-ceasefire-30477776.html

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



  • #1888
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    wes wrote: »
    You have link for that? As you have in the past in this thread, purposefully misrepresented what was said by UNRWA repeatedly, as such anything you say is worthless.

    Sure -

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48387&Cr=palestin&Cr1=#.U9wj6Gt5mK0

    First news story on www.un.org in case that link doesn't work.
    1 August 2014 – Strongly condemning the reported violation by Hamas of the mutually agreed humanitarian ceasefire which commenced this morning in the Gaza Strip, United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon also expressed deep concern about renewed Israeli attacks on the tiny enclave, which have reportedly killed more than 70 Palestinians.

    Also, UN spokesman on RTE news at 6.01 clearly stating that Hamas were to blame for the breaking of the ceasefire.


  • #1889
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Fiery mutant wrote: »
    Will this do.

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/un-condemns-hamas-for-breaking-72-hour-gaza-ceasefire-30477776.html


    Thanks for that:
    "The secretary-general condemns in the strongest terms the reported violation by Hamas of the mutually agreed humanitarian ceasefire which commenced this morning," UN spokesman Stephane Dujarric said. "He is shocked and profoundly disappointed by these developments."

    Ban noted that the UN has no independent means to verify exactly what happened Friday morning, Dujarric said, but according to the latest reports, two IsraeIi soldiers were killed and one taken captive after the ceasefire came into effect.

    Above emphasis mine, interesting that he blame Hamas, and then they says they had no way to verify exactly what happened.......... Pretty bizare thing for him to blame Hamas, and they state right after, that he has no way of actually verifying if what he said is true.....


  • #1890
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Voltex wrote: »
    What should the IDF do? Ignore the rockets? Hamas are purposely leveraging the international media to garner support. Its a classically contrived David and Goliath media stunt.
    Was the school in this video clearly designated 17 times by the UN as being free of weapons and full of refugee men, women and children?


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  • #1891
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Sure -

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48387&Cr=palestin&Cr1=#.U9wj6Gt5mK0

    First news story on www.un.org in case that link doesn't work.


    Also, UN spokesman on RTE news at 6.01 clearly stating that Hamas were to blame for the breaking of the ceasefire.

    Interesting that they also say this:
    Underscoring that the UN has no independent means to verify exactly what happened to derail the pause, the spokesperson said that, according to the latest reports, two Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) soldiers were killed and one taken captive after the humanitarian ceasefire came into effect.

    As I said earlier, rather odd that in the exact same story, they claim they have no way of knowing what happened, but have decided to condemn Hamas in anyways. Sorry, but that is completely bizarre imho......


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