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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #1592
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    TeddyTedson wrote: »
    Surely the UN or US wouldn't stand for this? I'm clueless though, would they?
    I know the US support Israelis in defending themselves but they'd hardly support this?

    I know its a bit long but this is worth a watch if you have the time.



  • #1593
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Phonehead wrote: »
    Obama clearly has been one of the biggest dissapointments in history, genuinely his only accomplishment was hunting down Bin Laden who was living in a f&*king housing estate with 2 chicks in Pakistan.

    No, his biggest accomplishment was getting himself elected despite the lack of experience, credibility, and a particular plan to do anything except say "I'm not a Republican".

    Some of us aren't surprised.


  • #1594
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    TeddyTedson wrote: »
    Surely the UN or US wouldn't stand for this? I'm clueless though, would they?
    I know the US support Israelis in defending themselves but they'd hardly support this?


    Well if you feel clueless then why not avail of the resources at your disposal to inform yourself of the situation and the structure of the UN? People state that they feel helpless when they see such misery being enacted around the world but one thing you can do is try to be as well informed as you can. The last crime committed against the victims is that they are then denied the truth in their death. Don't be implicated in that crime.


  • #1595
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Times of Israel posts a article with the title "When Genocide is Permissable" and quickly removed it. Its being tweeted a great deal right now, here is a tweet from reported Glenn Greenwald:

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/495241712596713473

    Pretty appalling article to post, but at least they removed it. However, the fact that it was posted at all, really does speak to attitude against Palestinians in Israel.....


  • #1596
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    wes wrote: »
    Times of Israel posts a article with the title "When Genocide is Permissable" and quickly removed it. Its being tweeted a great deal right now, here is a tweet from reported Glenn Greenwald:

    https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/495241712596713473

    Pretty appalling article to post, but at least they removed it. However, the fact that it was posted at all, really does speak to attitude against Palestinians in Israel.....

    It is appalling - but it's a blogpost on their site, which is apparently an open forum - not a Times of Israel article as such.


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  • #1597
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I'm not sure that is actually the case. It might depend on what the wording of the truce was.

    "Israel will take no fire upon the forces of Hamas except in self defense, and will not advance further into Gaza", for example, does not preclude the destruction of tunnels already in Israel's area of control.

    I've been looking around, but can't find the actual terms. If you have a link, I'll be happy to look at them.

    Certainly possible, but my understanding of a ceasefire is that both sides cease hostilities, to be fair there isn't much information available, but the currently available facts don't exactly speak to IDF claims of the other side breaking the ceasefire. Either way is really awful that the ceasefire was broken so quickly.


  • #1598
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    It is appalling - but it's a blogpost on their site, which is apparently an open forum - not a Times of Israel article as such.

    Ah, I was unaware of that, so its not as bad as I taught in regards to Times of Israel, but the fact that an author at all taught that was a good idea, still speaks to something rather awful amongst some people in Israel.


  • #1599
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    It is appalling - but it's a blogpost on their site, which is apparently an open forum - not a Times of Israel article as such.

    Now that you're back. Here is a link for you to read
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/nov/14/guardian-science-blogs-network

    In this article is a quote "Science bloggers were given the freedom to publish without direct editorial control – a model no other mainstream newspaper had tried"

    Is it your belief that 'The Times of Israel' has no editorial control over the content of the blog? and if so could you elaborate on that point?

    You have asked many questions of me which I had the courtesy to answer so I wonder now if you might be able to reciprocate as I presume you are someone of good intentions.


  • #1600
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Is it your belief that 'The Times of Israel' has no editorial control over the content of the blog? and if so could you elaborate on that point?

    No. They quite clearly do have editorial control, because they removed the blog post "for editorial reasons" - and as such, does not compare to the Guardian's genuinely open blog.

    Does this answer your question?

    Edit: PS: the bloggers are certainly pre-vetted (see here http://www.timesofisrael.com/contact/become-times-of-israel-blogger/) but whether their posts are pre-vetted individually, I don't know. If they are, then there will be hell to pay by whoever let this slip through the net.


  • #1601
    TeddyTedson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭TeddyTedson


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Well if you feel clueless then why not avail of the resources at your disposal to inform yourself of the situation and the structure of the UN? People state that they feel helpless when they see such misery being enacted around the world but one thing you can do is try to be as well informed as you can. The last crime committed against the victims is that they are then denied the truth in their death. Don't be implicated in that crime.

    Yes good advice, I will watch that video when I have time. I've been reading a bit on the wiki page. It's something that's always been in and out of the news that I've meant to really get a proper understanding of. I have a semi idea of the situation but have never really read into it.
    Is there a good book perhaps that would be worth a read?


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  • #1602
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    Well if you feel clueless then why not avail of the resources at your disposal to inform yourself of the situation and the structure of the UN? People state that they feel helpless when they see such misery being enacted around the world but one thing you can do is try to be as well informed as you can. The last crime committed against the victims is that they are then denied the truth in their death. Don't be implicated in that crime.

    Very well said my friend.


  • #1603
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    No. They quite clearly do have editorial control, because they removed the blog post "for editorial reasons" - and as such, does not compare to the Guardian's genuinely open blog.

    Does this answer your question?

    Well it's an honest answer but I think that editorial control is applied before you publish and therefore I think the reason for pulling was because it came to the attention of more senior in the organisation. But I'm only speculating based on what I assume is standard practice.


  • #1604
    whats_my_name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭whats_my_name


    I honestly have no words...

    "The United States also blamed Hamas for the breakdown of the ceasefire and accused it of launching a "barbaric" attack to capture an Israeli soldier.

    "This is an outrageous action and we look to the rest of the world to join us in condemning it," White House Deputy National Security Adviser Tony Blinken told MSNBC television." - from rte.ie

    To be honest I couldn't give a fiddlers about how many more Israeli soldiers die or are kidnapped. Any ounce of empathy I had for Israeli casualties is long gone after seeing endless pictures of defenseless innocent children murdered, babies not even weeks old, murdered.

    A soldier goes to war with the possibility of not coming home alive, it's the nature of their job. A group of children go to the beach to play, have fun, it's in a child's nature to have fun & are intentionally wiped out, murdered.

    Right now I don't see much difference between what the Nazi's done to the Jews to what Israel is doing to Gaza & it is so upsetting that the world is sitting by, letting it happen.

    What Israel is doing to the people of Gaza is an "outrageous action" and "barbaric".


  • #1605
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    TeddyTedson wrote: »
    Yes good advice, I will watch that video when I have time. I've been reading a bit on the wiki page. It's something that's always been in and out of the news that I've meant to really get a proper understanding of. I have a semi idea of the situation but have never really read into it.
    Is there a good book perhaps that would be worth a read?

    Well I have read a few books on the subject but I'm going to recommend a book which I have not yet read but was recommended by a friend and it is written by an Israeli historian.

    http://tinyurl.com/kfdhusf

    Tom Segev (Hebrew: תום שגב‎) (born March 1, 1945) is an Israeli historian, author and journalist. He is associated with Israel's so-called New Historians, a group challenging many of the country's traditional narratives.


  • #1606
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Hamas are up there with the blame game too. They are provoking the Israelis and hiding among civilians. They are scum. .

    And where did you learn this little 'fact' from? Your Israeli owned news source? The sooner the world wakes up and realises that Israel own and run the world, the sooner we will all get a clearer picture on things. We are being lied to by the media to suit the Israeli agenda!

    Just look at the weapons that Israel has compared to those of Hamas. Do you think this is a fair fight? It's wanton execution of innocent people so that Israel can inhabit this land for themselves. If this happened in Ireland, would you not try to defend yourself? Please don't believe the children as human shields stories. Another ploy by Israel to hide the real truth!


  • #1607
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    Wurly wrote: »
    If this happened in Ireland, would you not try to defend yourself? Please don't believe the children as human shields stories. Another ploy by Israel to hide the real truth!

    As a corollary to that I would also suggest that if the government of Ireland was engaged in such activities as the Israeli government then I hope I would have the same courage as those people in Israel who protest their government's action.


  • #1608
    h2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭h2005


    Wurly wrote: »
    And where did you learn this little 'fact' from? Your Israeli owned news source? The sooner the world wakes up and realises that Israel own and run the world, the sooner we will all get a clearer picture on things. We are being lied to by the media to suit the Israeli agenda!

    Just look at the weapons that Israel has compared to those of Hamas. Do you think this is a fair fight? It's wanton execution of innocent people so that Israel can inhabit this land for themselves. If this happened in Ireland, would you not try to defend yourself? Please don't believe the children as human shields stories. Another ploy by Israel to hide the real truth!
    Israel own and run the world? A tad OTT there.


  • #1609
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Edit: PS: the bloggers are certainly pre-vetted (see here http://www.timesofisrael.com/contact/become-times-of-israel-blogger/) but whether their posts are pre-vetted individually, I don't know. If they are, then there will be hell to pay by whoever let this slip through the net.
    You mean IDF soldier shooting 13 year old girl ten times kind of hell to pay? i.e. moved to a different department?


  • #1610
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Wurly wrote: »
    Just look at the weapons that Israel has compared to those of Hamas. Do you think this is a fair fight?
    Whether the contest is fair or not is irrelevant. It shouldn't be happening at all, and wouldn't be if Isreali weren't on another land grab jaunt.


  • #1611
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,640 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    h2005 wrote: »
    Israel own and run the world? A tad OTT there.

    It's very true.


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  • #1612
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    whats_my_name wrote: »
    I honestly have no words...

    "The United States also blamed Hamas for the breakdown of the ceasefire and accused it of launching a "barbaric" attack to capture an Israeli soldier.

    "This is an outrageous action and we look to the rest of the world to join us in condemning it," White House Deputy National Security Adviser Tony Blinken told MSNBC television." - from rte.ie
    Was this soldier in Gaza? I mean, there was a ceasefire and he just happened to be in the wrong country shooting at Palestinians?
    Can we believe any the US **** talk about the Malaysian airlines flight now with all this bare faced lying?


  • #1613
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Whether the contest is fair or not is irrelevant. It shouldn't be happening at all, and wouldn't be if Isreali weren't on another land grab jaunt.

    I completely agree with you.


  • #1614
    Wurly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭Wurly


    h2005 wrote: »
    Israel own and run the world? A tad OTT there.

    Do some research of your own and get back to me. It's available to you via the internet at any time.


  • #1615
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    h2005 wrote: »
    Israel own and run the world? A tad OTT there.
    Well, the US isn't far off that, and they'd shoot their granny if Israel asked them to.
    Although they'd probably prefer to shoot an Arab granny somewhere.


  • #1616
    whats_my_name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭whats_my_name


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It's very true.

    They have the US & EU in their back pocket.


  • #1617
    Phonehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Was this soldier in Gaza? I mean, there was a ceasefire and he just happened to be in the wrong country shooting at Palestinians?
    Can we believe any the US **** talk about the Malaysian airlines flight now with all this bare faced lying?

    Unfortunately the US I have started to learn has no moral compass.


  • #1618
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Phonehead wrote: »
    Unfortunately the US I have started to learn has no moral compass.
    Well there's the thing you see. I have no great time for Vlad Putin to put it mildly, but now when I hear Obama insisting Russia has shot down a civilian aircraft I'm starting to think: hang on, you're the same lying **** who says Israel is only defending itself when it obliterates children sleeping in clearly marked UN buildings, so you can get ****ed if you think I'll believe you on anything.


  • #1619
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You mean IDF soldier shooting 13 year old girl ten times kind of hell to pay? i.e. moved to a different department?

    They'll probably make him write the horoscopes for a week as punishment.


  • #1620
    LostinKildare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 992 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


    The author of that piece, "When Genocide Is Permissible," which was hastily pulled by the Times of Israel, also posted it up on his Facebook page:

    https://www.facebook.com/yochanan.gordon.3?fref=browse_search

    Some mindset


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  • #1621
    Phonehead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Phonehead


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Well there's the thing you see. I have no great time for Vlad Putin to put it mildly, but now when I hear Obama insisting Russia has shot down a civilian aircraft I'm starting to think: hang on, you're the same lying **** who says Israel is only defending itself when it obliterates children sleeping in clearly marked UN buildings, so you can get ****ed.

    The same US who told us Iraq had WMD's, the same US who have f%&ked over so many countries by supporting radicals and extremists just to get rid of unfriendly "to the US" Governments. All these World powers are not to be believed


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