There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 12:48AM #1

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class IMHO. You also can't judge a child by his/her parents attendance or non attendance at college. Yet this is something I see on Boards again and again.

Some threads focusing on education display the mantra "working class children do not want to go onto further education". I sometimes have to demonstrate to students and have some teaching responsibility at third level. Many of these students include working class mature students and as you will be aware many sub mature students come from middle class families. The mature students went to crap schools and were told that they shouldn't aspire to college (code for the teachers didn't want to teach them) and some of the less bright middle class students encountered the opposite upbringing and got to college (and later dropped out/failed).

The simple fact is many working class students should be there and there are many middle class students who shouldn't be there. If working class students aren't getting to college it's because of environment and not academic ability and because they hear some idiots (including their teachers sometimes) "working class students don't want to go to college.

We're approaching 2015 we have to stop defining the academic ability of children by the social class they were born into. This thread isn't my way of saying that middle class parents should stop giving their kids the best start in life I'm simply saying that academic ability is down unrelated to the class you are born into

. We also need to bring up the standards of all schools to match the standards of the better schools in the country.

FloatingVoter · 31-07-2014 12:50AM

Its 10 to 1 in the AM and you're writing an essay ? Beer up.

Links234 · 31-07-2014 12:51AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a class IMHO.

But what the child's name was Tyler? :pac:

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 12:52AM

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Its 10 to 1 in the AM and you're writing an essay ? Beer up.

That's tomorrow night

kneemos · 31-07-2014 12:52AM

Presumably what people mean is that lower income equates to lower academic achievements.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 12:54AM

kneemos wrote: »

Presumably what people mean is that lower income equates to lower academic achievements.

Yes indeed based on the inability to afford the same schools.

Dowl88 · 31-07-2014 12:54AM

Yawn.

kneemos · 31-07-2014 12:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes indeed based on the inability to afford the same schools.

Uh huh.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 12:56AM

Dowl88 wrote: »

Yawn.

Academic ability can also be determined by the ability to understand my post

longhalloween · 31-07-2014 12:56AM

Jared Diamond said that the difference in ability is due to the willingness of parents to encourage their children to study, and to pay for summer camps and learning resources.

catonthewire · 31-07-2014 12:58AM

I grew up in a working class family, my parents and four of my older siblings were denied access to higher education by the virtue of the fact they were working class..

My parents actively encouraged myself and three siblings to strive hard to gain qualifications, they both worked two jobs too cover the extra costs...
At school it really pissed me off the number of classmates, who were not capable of handling the grammar school curriculum, but their parents paid for the privlidge..

My own children thankfuly were allowed automatic access to grammar school , then, further education at college level...
Class should never dictate a child's education...

Rothmans · 31-07-2014 12:58AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Academic ability can also be determined by the ability to understand my post

I don't think that's his problem.

kneemos · 31-07-2014 01:00AM

Think you're being a bit pedantic.Most people would be aware that it's the background and not the kids fault.

How Soon Is Now · 31-07-2014 01:00AM

Jesus all the nerds are out tonight!.

kneemos · 31-07-2014 01:02AM

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Jesus all the nerds are out tonight!.

You're the one talking to Jesus.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:03AM

longhalloween wrote: »

Jared Diamond said that the difference in ability is due to the willingness of parents to encourage their children to study, and ABILITY to pay for summer camps and learning resources.

fIXED

How Soon Is Now · 31-07-2014 01:04AM

kneemos wrote: »

You're the one talking to Jesus.

He be the only one who listens in these parts anyway.....

longhalloween · 31-07-2014 01:07AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

fIXED

Yeah, that's it.

What's you obsession with this topic? Most of your previous posts have been in identical AH threads.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:07AM

kneemos wrote: »

Think you're being a bit pedantic.Most people would be aware that it's the background and not the kids fault.

You would be surpirsed Kneemos. I represent HEAR schools the odd time and some of the older middle class believe that it's a it's correlation between a disadvantaged (relatively speaking) background and educational deficiency rather than causation. It may be true that the synchronicity between those two events might blur the individualing of either individualing but it is true to say that we have clear evidence otherwise.

anncoates · 31-07-2014 01:09AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class .

Not inherently but you can easily predict skewed educational outcomes by the relative environmental differences: family educational precedents; home encouragement and the school environment.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:09AM

longhalloween wrote: »

Yeah, that's it.

What's you obsession with this topic? Most of your previous posts have been in identical AH threads.

I post on the subject because there are a lot who think otherwise. It's like my threads on anti vaccination and creationists. Fallacy.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:10AM

anncoates wrote: »

Not inherently but you can easily predict skewed educational outcome by the relative environmental differences: family educational precedents; home encouragement and the school environment.

Yes that's my point. Unfortunately there are many who think it's inherent and we shouldn't be fighting against the tide.

pablo128 · 31-07-2014 01:16AM

I'll start by saying I'm no expert on the subject. My 5 yr old daughter was born into a vicious recession, with both of her parents being made redundant before she was 6 months old. Obviously things were tough money wise for the first few years, though I'll admit we are doing ok now.
As soon as she could talk, we were teaching her the 123's and abc's. She could read and write before she started preschool. She finished junior infants there in June. Most of the kids in her class had a reading level of 5 or 6. She had a reading level of 18. It just goes to show that education starts at home.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:20AM

pablo128 wrote: »

I'll start by saying I'm no expert on the subject. My 5 yr old daughter was born into a vicious recession, with both of her parents being made redundant before she was 6 months old. Obviously things were tough money wise for the first few years, though I'll admit we are doing ok now.
As soon as she could talk, we were teaching her the 123's and abc's. She could read and write before she started preschool. She finished junior infants there in June. Most of the kids in her class had a reading level of 5 or 6. She had a reading level of 18. It just goes to show that education starts at home.

Well done Pablo and best of luck with your daughter. That's exactly why I point out that ability to pay is more accurate than willingness. Many excellent parents simply haven't the money to send their kids to summer schools.

My dad wasn't around much but I was luckily very clever and always asked questions. My uncle was an electrical engineer and always encouraged me to think.

Annasopra · 31-07-2014 01:23AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You can't describe a child's academic ability accurately by a socio economic class IMHO. You also can't judge a child by his/her parents attendance or non attendance at college. Yet this is something I see on Boards again and again.

Some threads focusing on education display the mantra "working class children do not want to go onto further education". I sometimes have to demonstrate to students and have some teaching responsibility at third level. Many of these students include working class mature students and as you will be aware many sub mature students come from middle class families. The mature students went to crap schools and were told that they shouldn't aspire to college (code for the teachers didn't want to teach them) and some of the less bright middle class students encountered the opposite upbringing and got to college (and later dropped out/failed).

The simple fact is many working class students should be there and there are many middle class students who shouldn't be there. If working class students aren't getting to college it's because of environment and not academic ability and because they hear some idiots (including their teachers sometimes) "working class students don't want to go to college.

We're approaching 2015 we have to stop defining the academic ability of children by the social class they were born into. This thread isn't my way of saying that middle class parents should stop giving their kids the best start in life I'm simply saying that academic ability is down unrelated to the class you are born into . We also need to bring up the standards of all schools to match the standards of the better schools in the country.

Of course and we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

Kathleen Lynch has written quite a lot on educational equality

Mardy Bum · 31-07-2014 01:25AM

Parenting has the biggest effect on a child's education and that is cold hard science. /thread.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:26AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course but we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

I agree with all of what you said but you would be surprised to hear some people will say "working class children don't want to go to third level education". That to them explains the imbalance completely.

How Soon Is Now · 31-07-2014 01:27AM

I hope my son ends up just like me!

Then your all ****ed :pac:

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:27AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Parenting has the biggest effect on a child's education and that is cold hard science. /thread.

Yes indeed it has (both willingness to provide and ability to provide) but we should put resources in place to counter that.

steddyeddy · 31-07-2014 01:28AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Of course and we still have to look at why certain schools send very few people to universities.

There are many reasons that can be posited; generational poverty and unemployment, a culture of exclusion within the universities, a culture within the working class communities of not going to university, schools in middle class areas being better resourced in terms of numbers of teachers and range of subjects, families in middle class areas better off financially and able to afford grinds etc.

Kathleen Lynch has written quite a lot on educational equality

I met miss Lynch many times. A very genuine woman.

anncoates · 31-07-2014 01:28AM

Think the point is that a lot of working class children are born into an environment where parents - not through any fault of their own - simply do not have the educational "capital" to overcome the disadvantages posed by violent. crap schools and a hostile external environment to education so despite the fact that inherent academic ability is probably equal, some kids basically need something special to pull off a good university education: expectational ability; inner strength and drive; exceptionally encouraging parents and so on.

There's no academic difference between working class and middle class children

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