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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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Comments

  • #602
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    For the love of Jesus, go read more than the first line of my post.

    I have absolutely no time for symbolic gestures. They cost nothing, and achieve nothing. There is past evidence that actions will attain a level of stability involving Israel, what's wrong with taking that past evidence and applying it to future actions? If Israel won't listen to them anyway, how has UNIFIL been apparently accepted by Israel, and somewhat successful at keeping the peace?



    You're talking militaristic bolloxs because in your mind "its the real world bub". Its not. Its your world and that of your CO's and politicians. You guys created this mess. The real world is people just trying to get by and love their families and live to see them grow old in peace. But you people won't allow it. We want peace but peace is bad for business. People, like you, are dying, children, like yours (if you have any) are dying and you come on here and dismiss countries who denounce it and mock them.


  • #603
    mad muffin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Who said that one shouldn't mind?

    I'm just pointing out that the fact that people in schools and hospitals are getting killed are by no means evidence of lack of restraint as many people are posting. I get the feeling that if you 'mind' the current figures, you might be at least slightly irked at the figures if the Israelis decided to throw caution and rules to the wind. People have, I think, today lost perspective of what it means to have a war.

    I think your level headedness is falling on def ears.

    Unless you are saying things like:

    Baby murderers

    IDF murder machine

    Genocide

    Our very own Stalingrad

    Israel is like Nazi Germany

    Then it doesn't gel with the tone of this thread.


  • #604
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Who would have guessed it, a current military guy applauding military actions? What is surprising is the acceptance than civilians should pay for their war games


  • #605
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Who said that one shouldn't mind?

    I'm just pointing out that the fact that people in schools and hospitals are getting killed are by no means evidence of lack of restraint as many people are posting. I get the feeling that if you 'mind' the current figures, you might be at least slightly irked at the figures if the Israelis decided to throw caution and rules to the wind. People have, I think, today lost perspective of what it means to have a war.

    Actually as a military man, may I ask your opinion on the soundness of Israel's strategy WRT Gaza? Would you do things differently if you were wearing stars in the IDF?


  • #606
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    So more people died, during the atomic bombings of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the USAAF. Than have died so far in Gaza. Now if you start looking at the deaths of civilians, through this particular lense. You then have to question, why did George W Bush go off starting all those wars. I mean after all, mathematically speaking, the total casualties incurred on 9/11 was merely a blip to what Genghis Khan inflicted during his conquests. How small or how big a casualty count is, does not and should not invalidate the suffering endured by those on the receiving end. So for me, such casualty comparisons are nonsensical, meaningless and irrelevant.

    Getting back on track. To the few, who seem to believe the IDF are showing restraint in Gaza. How does the killing of 1,317 Palestinians and the wounding of 7,340 others demonstrate military restraint? Especially when you consider the unprecedented sophistication and accuracy of the weaponry being used on Gaza. It represents at best, complete military incompetence in the use of such equipment. Or at worst, a complete and willful disregard for the lives of Palestinian civilians. And since I like most people, believe the IDF are more than well trained in the use of their military equipment. Is is then natural to conclude, that they do not give a damn about the safety and well being of Palestinian civilians.


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  • #607
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Who said that one shouldn't mind?

    I'm just pointing out that the fact that people in schools and hospitals are getting killed are by no means evidence of lack of restraint as many people are posting. I get the feeling that if you 'mind' the current figures, you might be at least slightly irked at the figures if the Israelis decided to throw caution and rules to the wind. People have, I think, today lost perspective of what it means to have a war.
    Unfortunately nobody's lost perspective of what it means to be continuously spouting lame whataboutery. Hey, maybe if you list enough wars where more civilians died nobody will care about dead babies today?
    Oh, can you turn to page 2 of the IDF PR handbook, you've worn page 1 to death.


  • #608
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Who would have guessed it, a current military guy applauding military actions? What is surprising is the acceptance than civilians should pay for their war games

    I'm putting them in perspective, not applauding them.
    You're talking militaristic bolloxs because in your mind "its the real world bub". Its not. Its your world and that of your CO's and politicians. You guys created this mess. The real world is people just trying to get by and love their families and live to see them grow old in peace. But you people won't allow it. We want peace but peace is bad for business. People, like you, are dying, children, like yours (if you have any) are dying and you come on here and dismiss countries who denounce it and mock them.

    Hang on a second. You're saying that because I would like to see actions happen which will have an actual effect on the ground, as opposed to actions which appear to do nothing, I'm in a fantasy world?

    The only real way is to come up with a solution which acknowledges the perceptions of both sides. It doesn't matter if you think Israel is right to surround Gaza on land and sea and enforce a blockade. It doesn't matter if anyone else thinks Israel is right. What has to be addressed is the fact that the Israelis think it is necessary. Until that is addressed, there will be no peace, and no amount of gesticulation, handwaving, or denouncing is going to stop that. That means that a third party is going to have to take action, on the ground and on the sea, like they did in Lebanon. Until that happens, I strongly suspect that this cycle of violence in Gaza will continue.


  • #609
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    mad muffin wrote: »
    I think your level headedness is falling on def ears.

    Unless you are saying things like:

    Israel is like Nazi Germany

    Then it doesn't gel with the tone of this thread.
    You mean like this?
    RobertKK wrote: »
    Hamas getting help from North Korea - a nation compared to Nazi Germany by the UN.
    Oops, my mistake. He's "on your" side so I guess you won't be moaning and whining about him saying exactly that, but about the other guys.


  • #610
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I'm putting them in perspective, not applauding them.

    Tell me the difference


  • #611
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Rant away i couldn't give 2 ****es, I have been in an actual.war zone during an actual war so your petty little rant about what civilian losses are acceptable is laughable at best. I am anti child murder by Israel, I am also anti child murder by Hamas, Russian backed troops in Ukraine, American drones in Afghanistan, Boko Harem and a myriad of other groups in places too numerous to mention.

    Saying that the wanton systematic destruction of civilian areas in Gaza and the deaths of 1200 people (75%) civilians, 200 of those children is just a fact of war is just wrong. Israel CHOOSES to target civilian areas with massive ordinance knowing full.well that innocent civilians are going to die. This is a war crime, you and the other Israeli apologists in here may not like to.hear that but it is a fact, Israel is committing war crimes against innocent civilians.

    My petty little rant? Meh come back to us when ya can have a debate like an adult instead of falling back on name calling. il be more than happy to discuss the rest of your points then. I won't hold my breath though...


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  • #612
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    P_1 wrote: »
    Actually as a military man, may I ask your opinion on the soundness of Israel's strategy WRT Gaza? Would you do things differently if you were wearing stars in the IDF?

    Pay grades above me, mate. I don't know what their strategy is, they don't seem to be announcing much.

    The people who need to change the strategy are the politicians. They need another way of achieving their goals than the current isolation and occasional raids. This will require the assistance and co-operation of both Hamas and third parties. I haven't seen any evidence that the Israeli leadership have put forth much of an effort in that direction. That said, it's not as if I've seen a lot from anyone else either, so general failure all around.
    Unfortunately nobody's lost perspective of what it means to be continuously spouting lame whataboutery. Hey, maybe if you list enough wars where more civilians died nobody will care about dead babies today?

    Different argument. I'm addressing the claims that the Israelis aren't showing any restraint. That it would be better that no dead babies (or anyone else, frankly) were getting killed at all is a given, but unfortunately, seems not to be happening.


  • #613
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,295 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Tell me the difference

    One is a statement of relative effect, the other would be a statement of appreciation that the effects are happening?

    Or, if you wish something more crude, it's the difference between "S*it happens in wars" vs "I'm glad that s*it happens in wars."


  • #614
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    JC01 wrote: »
    My petty little rant? Meh come back to us when ya can have a debate like an adult instead of falling back on name calling. il be more than happy to discuss the rest of your points then. I won't hold my breath though...

    Show me the name calling and i will apologise.


  • #615
    mad muffin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You mean like this?

    Oops, my mistake. He's "on your" side so I guess you won't be moaning and whining about him saying exactly that, but about the other guys.

    To be fair. That's more of a realistic comparison than Israel.


  • #616
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    Corvus Maximus wrote: »

    Getting back on track. To the few, who seem to believe the IDF are showing restrain in Gaza. How does the killing of 1,317 Palestinians and the wounding of 7,340 others demonstrates military restraint?.

    To put it very very very bluntly; because they havnt levelled the place.

    It seems pointless to elaborate because so far I havnt seen a single pro-Palestinian poster who is even remotely willing to debate. You have decided the IDF are not being restrained and no amount of numbers, statistics etc will change your mind


  • #617
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Hang on a second. You're saying that because I would like to see actions happen which will have an actual effect on the ground, as opposed to actions which appear to do nothing, I'm in a fantasy world?

    You're a hammer, it's your reality. How else can you become a hero.


  • #618
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    JC01 wrote: »
    To put it very very very bluntly; because they havnt levelled the place.

    It seems pointless to elaborate because so far I havnt seen a single pro-Palestinian poster who is even remotely willing to debate. You have decided the IDF are not being restrained and no amount of numbers, statistics etc will change your mind

    They haven't leveled because they know that would be unacceptable to even the yanks. They continue to murder with impunity while the world watches.


  • #619
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Show me the name calling and i will apologise.

    Your whole last post was belittling my point and you know it. Exactly what makes my opinion "petty" and "laughable" other than your say so?


  • #620
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    JC01 wrote: »
    Your whole last post was belittling my point and you know it. Exactly what makes my opinion "petty" and "laughable" other than your say so?

    If you can't see it then it's not worth explaining it to you.


  • #621
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    One is a statement of relative effect, the other would be a statement of appreciation that the effects are happening?

    Or, if you wish something more crude, it's the difference between "S*it happens in wars" vs "I'm glad that s*it happens in wars."

    The 'sh!t happens' statement can be made for any eventuality. My work colleague lost his mother in a road traffic accident a few months ago, I could have said sh!t happens and I would be factually correct but I would have come across a feckin pr!ck. Guess which course of words I chose?


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  • #622
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Pay grades above me, mate. I don't know what their strategy is, they don't seem to be announcing much.

    The people who need to change the strategy are the politicians. They need another way of achieving their goals than the current isolation and occasional raids. This will require the assistance and co-operation of both Hamas and third parties. I haven't seen any evidence that the Israeli leadership have put forth much of an effort in that direction. That said, it's not as if I've seen a lot from anyone else either, so general failure all around.

    True, what's the saying, "soldiers are only needed when the diplomats mess up", or something like that.

    Cheers for the answer, was just wondering what the take of things were from somebody with a military background


  • #623
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    P_1 wrote: »
    True, what's the saying, "soldiers are only needed when the diplomats mess up", or something like that.

    Cheers for the answer, was just wondering what the take of things were from somebody with a military background

    'I only follow orders' comes to mind


  • #624
    Leogirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 455 ✭✭Leogirl


    Highflyer13 wrote: »
    Occupation 101 explains the history of the conflict very well.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr9CIGeePXU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Thank you for this. I've just watched it all & it was a real eye opener.


  • #625
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    'I only follow orders' comes to mind

    Well that is generally how things tend to go in armies. I think it's only the German army that have the philosophy of "the soldier must be responsible to their conscience" applying.


  • #626
    JC01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭JC01


    bumper234 wrote: »
    They haven't leveled because they know that would be unacceptable to even the yanks. They continue to murder with impunity while the world watches.


    Unacceptable how though? They are already a pariah state as far as most are concerned so why not just go the whole hog and finish off a thorn in there side for good instead of dragging it on endlessly? Wouldnt the impunity (which i agree exists) just continue? America is hardly gonna invade them over it, maybe some soft sanctions for a few years until everyone forgets it?

    Obviously This is all hypothetical but other than killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people what other "real" disadvantage is there from an Isreali perspective?

    *before I get annihilated for this, obviously if anything like this wer to happen I'd be the first signature on the petition for war crimes prosecutions.


  • #627
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    JC01 wrote: »
    To put it very very very bluntly; because they havnt levelled the place.

    Not enough dead Palestinians is your defense.......
    JC01 wrote: »
    It seems pointless to elaborate because so far I havnt seen a single pro-Palestinian poster who is even remotely willing to debate. You have decided the IDF are not being restrained and no amount of numbers, statistics etc will change your mind

    Now, now its a bit more than that.

    We know what the doctrine is called:
    Dahiya doctrine

    There are also numerous examples of it being implemented, here are a couple:
    Witness to a shelling: first-hand account of deadly strike on Gaza port

    It was there that the second shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: "They are only children."
    Israel is finding it harder to deny targeting Gaza infrastructure

    Israel's attack on the Gaza power plant on Tuesday is likely to fuel speculation that the enclave's civilian infrastructure is being deliberately targeted in the continuing war against Hamas.

    The Israeli army has said previously that it does not target critical non-military facilities, insisting that it is seeking to destroy terrorist targets such as tunnels and rockets that are fired into Israel. It did not immediately comment on the power station shelling, reportedly by tanks. It was "simply not known" what had happened, one official told the Guardian.

    The scale of Gaza's humanitarian crisis has alarmed human rights organisations. Last week, Israeli NGOs warned that more than half of Gaza's 1.8 million people were now affected by a lack of adequate access to water and sanitation services, with raw sewage spilling on to the streets from damaged pipes. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are without power. Hundreds of thousands more face severe shortages.

    You will need to do a lot better, then offer up the excuse that Israel hasn't murdered all the Palestinians in Gaza. FFS, even the IDF aren't that stupid, they would lose support over night, and would be hit by crippling sanctions, that would make the ones on Iran, look like a stern talking to.


  • #628
    Joshua J
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Joshua J


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    'I only follow orders' comes to mind

    I think the reason US soldiers/vets are killing themselves in record numbers is when the brainwashing wears off they realise it wasn't their CO who pulled the trigger it was themselves. And they had a choice.


  • #629
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,675 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    P_1 wrote: »
    Well that is generally how things tend to go in armies

    Then why ask this?


  • #630
    smurgen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    If you think of what's happening from a Gazan citizens perspective it's absolutely horrific and terrifying.I can only imagine the psychological trauma caused to people from this for years to come.
    I hope more countries go the way of Bolivia and declare Israel a terrorist state because it's exactly what it is.


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  • #631
    opinionated3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,197 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    Joshua J wrote: »
    I think the reason US soldiers/vets are killing themselves in record numbers is when the brainwashing wears off they realise it wasn't their CO who pulled the trigger it was themselves. And they had a choice.

    Anti American bull****. Can you not come up with something better than that tripe?


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